Robert Beltran says the Prime Directive is 'fascist crap'

[Guy Gardener]

Just because they are not allowed to strip mine planets populated by medieval twits praying to their sun... The Federaiton can still clandestinely survey worlds, so that in 500 years when they are allowed to strip these planets, they know exactly where to dig.

Klingons can just barge in and plant a flag.

Here's what the Federation probably does to passively aggressively tell the Klingons and others to #### off, and let the young be young.

They probably claim all the space around a mineral rich valuable prewarp planet's solar system, so that the Klingon's can't strip mine ### without invading the Federation, and starting a war, to get to a any given planet's dilithium veins, that has no idea if the Federation of Klingons even exist.

Cosmic Othello.

The benevolent Federation is unlikely to spend time occupying and holding space around non-valuable planets, because deep down they are still imperalists.

 

[KelisThePoet]

Which takes me back to why were they at Nibiru? To explore does this mean stopping by every inhabited planet and saying 'hello, take me to your leader', even if their level of technology is 'primitive'? The way to hell and good intentions comes to mind when it comes to playing Saviour of the galaxy. Real life Western history is a classic example.

They were at Nibiru to observe, as Admiral Pike says. They weren't supposed to make contact or interfere in any way. When they found out about the volcano, Spock came up with a plan to stop the natural disaster without their interference being discovered, which he did not believe was a violation of the Prime Directive. But when Spock's plan put him in peril, Kirk decided in the moment that remaining hidden wasn't worth Spock's life.

 

[locutus101]

Just because they are not allowed to strip mine planets populated by medieval twits praying to their sun... The Federaiton can still clandestinely survey worlds, so that in 500 years when they are allowed to strip these planets, they know exactly where to dig.

Klingons can just barge in and plant a flag.

Here's what the Federation probably does to passively aggressively tell the Klingons and others to #### off, and let the young be young.

They probably claim all the space around a mineral rich valuable prewarp planet's solar system, so that the Klingon's can't strip mine ### without invading the Federation, and starting a war, to get to a any given planet's dilithium veins, that has no idea if the Federation of Klingons even exist.

Cosmic Othello.

The benevolent Federation is unlikely to spend time occupying and holding space around non-valuable planets, because deep down they are still imperalists.

Why cosmic Othello? Why not cosmic draughts or cosmic Chess?

 

[Nyotarules]

I think the observation was a violation of the Directive. The folks don't have warp technology, have no idea there are folks on other planets, have no interest in finding out. Leave them the hell alone! Fly on by, do not collect 200 credits. In the Prime universe that planet is dead.
To observe just to watch them die is cruel. To fly on by ignorant of their existence and vice versa is better IMO.

 

[locutus101]

I think the observation was a violation of the Directive. The folks don't have warp technology, have no idea there are folks on other planets, have no interest in finding out. Leave them the hell alone! Fly on by, do not collect 200 credits. In the Prime universe that planet is dead.

Well, WE don't know if there are any aliens in outer space but we definitely would like to know. The hell with the prime directive!

 

[Nyotarules]

Well, WE don't know if there are any aliens in outer space but we definitely would like to know. The hell with the prime directive!

That is different from having a world view where you believe you are the centre of the universe, would you then want some strange alien dropping by with their starship causing mass hysteria? We are attemping to get into space and have done so. The fictional Nibiru did not have a clue and did not give a ....but not anymore.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Why cosmic Othello? Why not cosmic draughts or cosmic Chess?

Have you played these games?

Winning at Chess = Decapitory threat resulting in total capitulation.

Winning at Draughts = Total annihilation of the opposition.

Wining/playing Othello = Surround the opposition forcing conversion, assimilation and conscription until a uniformity of cultural identity is achieved.

 

[locutus101]

That is different from having a world view where you believe you are the centre of the universe, would you then want some strange alien dropping by with their starship causing mass hysteria? We are attemping to get into space and have done so. The fictional Nibiru did not have a clue and did not give a ....but not anymore.

They were this close to collectively kicking the bucket! Anything is better than that.

 

[Nyotarules]

They were this close to collectively kicking the bucket! Anything is better than that.

Under the circumstances yes, but the ship should not be there in the first place spying on them.

 

[locutus101]

Have you played these games?

Winning at Chess = Decapitory threat resulting in total capitulation.

Winning at Draughts = Total annihilation of the opposition.

Wining/playing Othello = Surround the opposition forcing conversion, assimilation and conscription until a uniformity of cultural identity is achieved.

Yes I know all these games quite well. I also know Go, Chinese Chess; Arimaa.

 

[KelisThePoet]

If Starfleet never observed non-warp civilizations, its exploration and scientific research mandate would be greatly curtailed. They have technology that allows them to observe without being detected. And they weren't at Nibiru to cruelly observe those people perish. They were observing generally, and when they found out about the volcano, they decided to do something about it.

Generally, I also believe the Federation should keep its nose out of other people's business, but not to the extreme that they shouldn't even be allowed to look the way of anyone non-warp.

 

[locutus101]

Under the circumstances yes, but the ship should not be there in the first place spying on them.

I give them credit for saving a sentient species from extinction.

 

[Nyotarules]

I give them credit for saving a sentient species from extinction.

Is that Starfleet's role to play Saviour of the galaxy? Police officer of the Quadrant?

 

[Guy Gardener]

Yes I know all these games quite well. I also know Go, Chinese Chess; Arimaa.

Yes, you are a person.

Stop bragging.

The Federation surrounding a prewarp planet, with parsecs of real estate, on all sides, threaded with star ships and star bases, so that no other empire can get to it without creating a diplomatic incident, sounds like Othello to me.

 

[Nyotarules]

If Starfleet never observed non-warp civilizations, its exploration and scientific research mandate would be greatly curtailed. They have technology that allows them to observe without being detected. And they weren't at Nibiru to cruelly observe those people perish. They were observing generally, and when they found out about the volcano, they decided to do something about it.

Generally, I also believe the Federation should keep its nose out of other people's business, but not to the extreme that they shouldn't even be allowed to look the way of anyone non-warp.

Based on our real history where the consequences were disastrous when the 'Advanced' explored the home of the 'Primitive' I believe they should take that stand. In fiction it generally goes happyily ever after, however I do like the ST TNG episode 'First contact' when it all goes horribly wrong.

 

[locutus101]

Yes, you are a person.

Stop bragging.

The Federation surrounding a prewarp planet, with parsecs of real estate, on all sides, threaded with star ships and star bases, so that no other empire can get to it without creating a diplomatic incident, sounds like Othello to me.

From a distance maybe. Othello is more subtle than that. Sometimes the one who finally wins is the one with almost no pawns at some point in the game. In fact the more you have, sometimes the more vulnerable they are.

 

[Guy Gardener]

No one has declared victory.

The Federation keeps making these 100 year long, thousand year long, timetables, but almost falls to invasion (completely) every other week, which makes it ridiculous that they even thought about picking out a desk diary for next year.

 

[KelisThePoet]

Based on our real history where the consequences were disastrous when the 'Advanced' explored the home of the 'Primitive' I believe they should take that stand. In fiction it generally goes happyily ever after, however I do like the ST TNG episode 'First contact' when it all goes horribly wrong.

Yeah, you have a point. I'd argue that the Federation has technology that makes their observation less intrusive, but maybe that's a science-fictional cop out.

 

[locutus101]

Yeah, you have a point. I'd argue that the Federation has technology that makes their observation less intrusive, but maybe that's a science-fictional cop out.

It most likely is.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Why would they look?

Anthropologists are there with boots on the ground, to see what young cultures are like, which is HIGHLY insulting.

Starfleet Security/Section 32 are there with boots on the ground, to make sure that no other empire or random dill hole is there manipulating the planet or exploiting the planet despite being under the unasked for protection of the Federation, which is patronizing.

The Diplomatic Corps are there with boots on the ground, accessing this noobz viability to handle/enter the galactic community, while monitoring and calculating their progress towards first contact.

Some counter intelligence agency should have boots on the ground, to be in charge of hiding the galactic community from a prewarp culture, since even with the backward technology we have now, we are identifying thousands of new planets, some of which seem capable of holding life. Figuring out subspace sensors and subspace radio is just as important a threshold as figuring out warp speed. Faking that any species is alone after they have invented subspace radio seems like a full time job for an entire star base. If you don't have subspace sensors, travelling at even warp one further than you can see, is suicidal.