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Robert Beltran says the Prime Directive is 'fascist crap'

Who gets to decide what constitutes help? If I'm a member of a non-warp species, I'd prefer the decision not be made by some human with a hero complex that I don't even know who happens to be sitting on a weaponized space ship with the ability to blast my planet to ashes.

The historian guy in "Patterns of Force" didn't think he was exploiting aliens as a cheap workforce or taking valuable resources from their planet. He was trying to help them by instituting his ostensibly benevolent fascist regime. Spock is as clear as anyone about the extent of the Prime Directive, if not the motivation: complete non-interference. And while the Prime Directive is not technically in play in "A Private Little War" (the culture has already been contaminated), it's a perfect example from original Trek about how Kirk's desire to provide help to his friends has consequences that are not only damaging but draw the Federation into an imperialist conflict.

John Gill was either insane or an idiot if he thought Nazi Germany and Hitler were a good basis for a benevolent dictatorship, he could modeled a government on Napoleon, Tito, some of the more reasonable Roman Emperors, but he chose Hitler, who had an ideology that was fundamentally violent. When Hitler invaded Poland, he didn't do it because he thought he was improving life for the Polish, he invaded Poland for purely selfish. Most imperialism is based on selfishness, not good intentions.

Again there is a huge middle ground between total non intervention, no matter what, even if a civilization is about to be destroyed by a natural disaster and imperialism, occupying that middle ground seems more enlightened then gong to one extreme or another.
 
Again there is a huge middle ground between total non intervention, no matter what, even if a civilization is about to be destroyed by a natural disaster and imperialism, occupying that middle ground seems more enlightened then gong to one extreme or another.
It "seems" more enlightened because you are guided by your own cultural values. But they are totally arbitrary. There is no 'objective' position to take here- every decision you make will be influenced by your own, subjective, cultural values, which means you're imposing them on another, less technologically advanced species which may not share them. The Prime Directive exists to protect planets from 'helpful, well-meaning' but more advanced cultures who, even without meaning to, will completely destroy the culture they are trying to protect when they impose their values on them.
 
It "seems" more enlightened because you are guided by your own cultural values. But they are totally arbitrary. There is no 'objective' position to take here- every decision you make will be influenced by your own, subjective, cultural values, which means you're imposing them on another, less technologically advanced species which may not share them. The Prime Directive exists to protect planets from 'helpful, well-meaning' but more advanced cultures who, even without meaning to, will completely destroy the culture they are trying to protect when they impose their values on them.

I don't believe in moral absolutism, but I don't believe in moral subjectivity either, I think moral universalism is a good compromise between those two extremes and people often know that some things they are doing are wrong, but either don't care or come up with rationalizations and most examples of imperialism are based on greed and a desire for control, not good intentions.

Does any rational person think Hitler had good intentions when he invaded Poland or think the opium wars can be justified or think what King Leopold did to the Congo was a good thing? All those actions were selfish I do expect the Federation to be better then those people and again how is letting civilizations getting wiped out by a natural disaster the best thing for them?

Also a lot of people criticized western nations for doing anything about the Rwandan genocide, so these moral choices are not as easy as being presented here.
 
Does any rational person think Hitler had good intentions when he invaded Poland...
'Rational' has no meaning in this context. Hitler thought he had good intentions. Everyone alive thinks they have good intentions. No-one is consciously evil, we all justify our decisions. That's why it's General Order #1, because you can't trust your own motivations when they are culturally motivated.

No-one is saying we should adhere to the Prime Directive here on Earth. Rwanda is part of our planet and society and no-one is saying we should stand aside and let atrocities happen here on Earth. But understand: The Rwanda genocide was part of a legacy of imperialism, the German and Belgian empires had already swept through Rwanda, who collaborated with Tutsi's and stoked fires of resentment among the Hutu underclass. Who can say if the genocide would have occured if this had never happened. This is the whole point: no-one can foresee the consequences. So if we ever do make it to another planet that's populated, and that culture is technologically less advanced than us, I maintain the Prime Directive is correct and that any interference with them, particularly knowledge of ourselves and our technology, would destroy that culture, forever. Intentions good or otherwise.
 
Again there is a huge middle ground between total non intervention, no matter what, even if a civilization is about to be destroyed by a natural disaster and imperialism, occupying that middle ground seems more enlightened then gong to one extreme or another.
If it seems more enlightened to you as a human and it seems less enlightened to me as a human, that's fine. We should discuss that. But if it seems more enlightened to you as a human sitting on a weaponized starship that can blast an alien's planet to ashes, and you have no idea what seems more enlightened to that alien, because he/she/it has no way of contacting you, you shouldn't even initiate the contact, much less act. You should keep your own opinions of enlightenment to yourself and stay out of that alien's business, because there's no way he/she/it can engage or oppose you on a technologically equal footing.
Does any rational person think Hitler had good intentions when he invaded Poland or think the opium wars can be justified or think what King Leopold did to the Congo was a good thing? All those actions were selfish I do expect the Federation to be better then those people and again how is letting civilizations getting wiped out by a natural disaster the best thing for them?
Read Heart of Darkness by Joseph Conrad. It is all about how the Belgian colonization of the Congo under King Leopold was represented by and to Europeans as a humanitarian endeavor. Kurtz (literally) paints it as a sublime, blindfolded woman carrying a candle into darkness. Similar examples throughout history are myriad, whether it's the English ostensibly civilizing the Irish or the English propaganda depicting American Indians asking English colonizers, "Come over here and help us."

The truth is, almost all acts of imperialism have been justified as patronizing, condescending help, the ostensible burden of an ostensibly more advanced society helping an ostensibly more primitive one out of the dark. Hitler's fascism does stand out in contrast to this general, historical trend. So I agree with you, the writers of "Patterns of Force" should not have picked Hitler as John Gill's model for benevolent dictatorship. But I suspect they did so primarily because the images of Nazism were readily legible to an American audience as symbols of dictatorship. If they had written Gill's dictatorship as modeled on King Leopold's, most American viewers would have said, "Who?"
 
No-one is saying we should adhere to the Prime Directive here on Earth. Rwanda is part of our planet and society and no-one is saying we should stand aside and let atrocities happen here on Earth. But understand: The Rwanda genocide was part of a legacy of imperialism, the German and Belgian empires had already swept through Rwanda, who collaborated with Tutsi's and stoked fires of resentment among the Hutu underclass. Who can say if the genocide would have occured if this had never happened.
The situation is somewhat analogous (though much more real and serious) to that of the aliens in "A Piece of the Action" or "A Private Little War." In those cases, the culture has already been contaminated by human meddling, so even though the people are still non-warp, the Federation has limited interactions with them. I think the Federation is wise even in those cases to keep its interactions and interference limited, as the power relationship is so unequal.
 
Lots of thought-provoking stuff in this thread, just adding a little pigweed to the mulligan stew:

Non-interference with catastrophic events might suggest that the Federation understands things about progress or sociology that we currently do not. Consider the criteria for First Contact (as in the eponymous episode): you make first contact only when a society reaches warp capability - and is about to learn the galactic truth without anyone else's help. Consider it was the Vulcans who first introduced Humans to this concept, establishing it as a "proven" policy prior to Earth's own involvement in galactic events. Consider planets such as Kespritt, Malcor III, Bajor, and no doubt others, who were denied Federation membership; and their reasoning for this denial.

(I'm also a bit reluctant to use real-world examples, as the fictional universe simply glosses over salient issues like economic systems, etc. So ultimately, it's just a story for the purpose of telling in forty minutes or so - no time for nuances, we need big bad Klingons - boom done).

It seems to me that in order to become a functional member of this Federation, your planet has to reach a state of unification; in order to permit the Fed not to have to come in and get enmired in your internal politics, but to be ethically capable of interaction on a meta-political (et al) level.

That is the Federation's contact point. Prior to this state, there is simply nothing for the Fed to lawfully engage. No contact points. This is not philosophically but simply legally (and of course the universe is messier than that). Saving planets from catastrophe means that the Fed is now dealing with societies in a co-dependent relationship; providing crutches to cultures who, for whatever reason, are not in fact capable of unification and the technological advancement that creates, symbolized by a warp-capable galactic perspective. It's not denying the validity of non-spacefaring societies - in fact it is respecting them. And respecting your own legal limitations, which concern themselves with spacefaring cooperation of willing planets only.

Advanced civilizations are created through the successful navigation of their own crises of survival. If they are too busy bickering to build an asteroid deflector - that is their own myopia. They would have added nothing beyond burden and ethical quagmire to the superordinate society of the Federation - a society built on principles of liberty, cultural egalitarianism, and big-ass ray guns that could eat rival nations and whole planets for breakfast.

For example - Bajor chose to remain a society enlightened in arts and philosophy and religion - and do little for military defense. When Cardassia swooped in - Bajor was victimized, certainly - but they were also victimized by their own pacifistic ideology, which had obstinately overlooked the reality of the snake coiled beside their picnic blanket. (Now they needed their otherworldly philosophy more than ever because that is all they had left).

The universe is designed so that people die.

The Federation is not responsible for that outcome. But membership to the Federation - is earned. Not because it is better; but because its responses are limited by a model of specific legal ethics that do not empower starships with carte blanche authority to play Monopoly: Evolution Edition™. To create dependency societies, welfare states, ideological quagmires, or eugenics experiments.

If a captain wants to rescue a society - that's their choice. But the Federation is by no means ethically responsible for the survival of that society - because it has no legal mechanism for dealing with intraplanetary crises. There's that liberty thing again. You save one society from impending death, and now you can justify a nazi experiment for the very same reason.

It's not a question of right or wrong; it's a matter of legal authorization as a representative of an organized society. You can't act as that representative, using all its cool toys and gadgets, for acts that lie outside its authorized mandate. At that point you have usurped your role and are acting as a rogue element. And you have ruined that society's chances for future membership in the Federation by dint of its intrinsic social dysfunction to solve its own problems.

Now, once you are warp-capable, the Federation will help you deal with other planets and medical crises. But not your own elections or coup d'etats. Your whole planet gets ONE seat at the council. And if you were too busy arguing about sky monsters to invent a way out of your earthquakes - tough noogies. Let your sky monster stories succor you on your way to extinction.

The Federation is not enjoying watching this. It simply has no mechanism for a response. That would alter the fundamental nature of the guiding principles into one of state-centric authority, and be a step closer to actual totalitarianism.

We all make a choice authorizing government access into the personal lives of its citizens. Too much access, there goes liberty. No access, then terror thrives. It is a choice. Both choices will certainly generate outcry.

A captain who violates the Prime Directive is like an officer who strikes another officer, or one who steals a ship for personal errands. They aren't just being gallant - they are effectively resigning. (IRL, sans the Plot Directive).
 
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The situation is somewhat analogous (though much more real and serious) to that of the aliens in "A Piece of the Action" or "A Private Little War." In those cases, the culture has already been contaminated by human meddling, so even though the people are still non-warp, the Federation has limited interactions with them. I think the Federation is wise even in those cases to keep its interactions and interference limited, as the power relationship is so unequal.

It's strange that such a sacrosanct rule as the PD is so often broken.
 
It wasn't broken in those cases. Those alien civilizations had contact with humans outside the Federation's control or before the Prime Directive was in place.
 
Ever watch the old western tv series rawhide? The lead character who was the trail boss was a schizophrenic dick. One week he has an unbreakable rule of the trail that would create drama for that particular episode. The next week he would break that rule (or worse, come up with a contradictory rule) to create drama. The Prime Directive is the same thing to me. A useless crutch to create fake drama by lazy writers. It's hard to define, ignored in some cases, followed to the strictest letter in others, just to create cheap drama.
 
Ever watch the old western tv series rawhide? The lead character who was the trail boss was a schizophrenic dick. One week he has an unbreakable rule of the trail that would create drama for that particular episode. The next week he would break that rule (or worse, come up with a contradictory rule) to create drama. The Prime Directive is the same thing to me. A useless crutch to create fake drama by lazy writers. It's hard to define, ignored in some cases, followed to the strictest letter in others, just to create cheap drama.

I agree that there is a lot of gratuitous drama that would have been avoided if not for this rule's interpretation of the week.
 
Ever watch the old western tv series rawhide? The lead character who was the trail boss was a schizophrenic dick. One week he has an unbreakable rule of the trail that would create drama for that particular episode. The next week he would break that rule (or worse, come up with a contradictory rule) to create drama. The Prime Directive is the same thing to me. A useless crutch to create fake drama by lazy writers. It's hard to define, ignored in some cases, followed to the strictest letter in others, just to create cheap drama.
My Dad loved that one! :techman:

I found a DVD with one season in a bargain bin and bought it. Actually a good series despite being in black and white. Clint Eastwood plays one of the main characters (not the trail boss mentioned above) and since I'm a Clint Eastwood fan I found it worth to watch.

However, I didn't find the trail boss that schizofrenic.
 
The Prime Directive is the same thing to me. A useless crutch to create fake drama by lazy writers. It's hard to define, ignored in some cases, followed to the strictest letter in others, just to create cheap drama.
You'll need to cite some actual examples for this critique to follow-through. The PD was not a crutch, if anything it gets in the way of writers. It's a philosophical perspective created because Roddenberry (and Coon, author of "The Return of the Archons") wanted human heroes who were humble in the face of the incredibly awesome responsibility of interfering with other cultures, particularly those who were not as technologically advanced. Remember the exact wording of the order:

No identification of self or mission. No interference with the social development of said planet. No references to space or the fact that there are other worlds or civilizations.​

Most of the things you are talking about are not applications of this order. A list of our most tragic history is a list of people who should have followed this order and didn't.
 
Thinking about what Archer said...

ARCHER: The Valakians want our warp technology.
T'POL: What did you tell them?
ARCHER: That I'd think about it.
T'POL: And?
ARCHER: Safe to say I know where you stand on the subject.
T'POL: Even if you give them our reactor schematics they don't have the technical expertise to build a warp engine.
ARCHER: They have no experience working with antimatter. I doubt they even realize how dangerous it is. They're not ready.
T'POL: Then your decision shouldn't be difficult.
ARCHER: We could stay and help them.
T'POL: The Vulcans stayed to help Earth ninety years ago. We're still there.
ARCHER: I never thought I'd say this, but I'm beginning to understand how the Vulcans must have felt.
(In Sickbay, Phlox is studying a DNA sequence, and what he sees troubles him greatly.)

Harder to find...

Well the Galaxy class at least has a storage capacity for a 3 year supply. I would imagine most ships do. It would be the rare captain indeed that allowed his ship to "run out of gas".

Though, the Tech Manual does mention that deep space refueling is possible:

Refueling while in interstellar space is possible through the use of Starfleet tanker craft. Tanker transfers run considerable risks, not so much from hardware problems but because refined antimatter is a valuable commodity, and vulnerable to Threat force capture or destruction while in transit. Starfleet cruiser escorts are standard procedure for all tanker movements.

From the TNG tech manual rather than canon.
 
No point.

Just stuff we know, or should know.

Aspects of the Prime Directive still applies to fresh species who know about warp and aliens, but have inferior technology to the Federation, whatever trade pact is eventually formulated between the Federation and any specific species is specific to that races sophistication, detailing what exactly can and cannot be "given" to each trading partner.

Picard: "Hey! We are aliens! Aliens exist, but we are not going to give you photon torpedoes to hunt elk for sport."

The Prime Directive telling Starship Captain's to stay out of the way only holds sway until the Federation has a formal relationship as a friend or an enemy with any given species that Starfleet may happen to run across in space.

The Federation Council tells Starfleet what to do, within the limits of what Starfleet is allowed to do. Checks and balances, you see. The two easiest ways for a species to become exempt to the prime directive's Technology embargo might have to be declaring war on the Federation, or joining the Federation.

Starfleet works for the Federation, not the other way around.
 
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