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I think that problem with that TNG did with Data is they were originally trying to create a counter example of Spock. Spock suppressed his humanity in TOS; they wanted to have their outsider character to aspire to humanity. The problem is the idea that he was a counter weight to Spock got forgotten pretty much and later shows used Data as the template (i.e. the Outsider who wants to be more human) without that context.

To be honest, a character like Spock that puts humans in their place every once in a while is sorely missed in modern Trek.
 
I think that problem with that TNG did with Data is they were originally trying to create a counter example of Spock. Spock suppressed his humanity in TOS; they wanted to have their outsider character to aspire to humanity.

To some extent, that's true. Data was essentially a composite of Xon from Phase II and Questor from The Questor Tapes. And Xon was created to be Spock's replacement and thus was designed to contrast with him, to be a logical full Vulcan who was trying to explore his emotional side more so as to connect better with his human crewmates. Questor, meanwhile, was an android who was designed to mimic a human perfectly, but whose social and emotional programming was damaged and incomplete and thus needed to learn to relate to humans better through experience. I suppose Questor owed something to Spock, but TQT was also basically Roddenberry's third try at the Assignment: Earth premise, this time replacing stoic, unearthly superhuman Gary Seven with a stoic, unearthly android.

But I think that, despite that, the developers of TNG were trying to avoid seeming too derivative of TOS. That's why Data wasn't the first officer or science officer, but the operations manager (although he ended up playing the de facto science-officer role anyway). And it's why the first couple of seasons didn't define Data's personal journey as being about emotion specifically, just about pursuing his humanity. I just did a search of the online transcripts, and Data hardly ever uses the word "emotion" in the first two seasons, and often does speak of feeling things (like how empty he will feel after Tasha Yar's death), or doesn't correct others when they describe him as feeling things. The first suggestion that he didn't feel emotion (at least not the human kind) was in "The Schizoid Man" in season 2, and there was a line in "Peak Performance" that reinforced it, but in neither case was Data himself the one saying it. And it didn't start to become a defining aspect of Data's characterization until "The Ensigns of Command" and after.


The problem is the idea that he was a counter weight to Spock got forgotten pretty much and later shows used Data as the template (i.e. the Outsider who wants to be more human) without that context.

Did they? DS9's outsider character was Odo, and he specifically didn't want to be more like humanoids. He tended to look with scorn on humanoid behavior and he was more interested in discovering his own people's origins and nature. The Doctor on Voyager was sort of a mix of both -- becoming more "human" as he explored his potential, but also embracing his nature as a hologram and how it gave him different, often greater potentials than a human. Seven of Nine resisted rediscovering her humanity, and though she eventually did accept her human side, she never entirely let go of her Borg side. T'Pol came closest to the Spock template, a full Vulcan with a condescending attitude toward humans, but with difficulties controlling her emotions due to one factor or another (the writers couldn't settle on just one).

The only one of those characters that comes close to using Data as a template is the Doctor, but he's more true to the original, Questor-like conception of Data, an AI capable of emotion and merely lacking social skills due to inexperience. But he also had the condescension of Spock and Odo.


To be honest, a character like Spock that puts humans in their place every once in a while is sorely missed in modern Trek.

You mean a character like Odo, or Quark, or Garak, or the Doctor, or Seven, or T'Pol. Or even Phlox on occasion (e.g. pointing out that Denobulans handled genetic engineering far better than humans did, or being amused and dismissive about human sexual hangups).
 
The universe is a shockingly fragile place, when you get right down to it. We're all lucky Starfleet is on the case. ;)
Presumably we're not watching the timelines where Starfleet failed and the universe ended, because that might not be very interesting as part of an ongoing series. It may be that Star Trek is itself suffering from a state of quantum immortality- the universe has to continue to exist, because we're observing the timeline in which it was always saved.
 
VOY - The Eternal Tide threatened the entire multiverse.
I believe Millennium did, as well. I don't remember it specifically saying so, but there was the whole thing with Dukat setting up in the Mirror Universe, and it would've deflated the tension if that was a viable escape from Weyoun's plan, so I'm betting there was something in there about all the alternative universes also being a side-effect of the wormhole being split in two.
 
I just realized one that I'm surprised hasn't been mentioned. You'd think it would be a big one.

The End of the Universe!

It's come up and been averted (usually) in DS9's "Millennium" trilogy, TNG's "I,Q," "Q&A," and "The Body Electric," Voyager's "The Eternal Tide," and the Shatnerverse "Totality" trilogy. A lot of them overlap or would seem to be mutually incompatible at first glance (come to think of it, "Q & A" specifically retconned "I, Q" as a fable setting the stage for its own version of the End Times).

The universe is a shockingly fragile place, when you get right down to it. We're all lucky Starfleet is on the case. ;)

You can also add the universe-threatening perils in Corona, The Wounded Sky, and The Three-Minute Universe.

Oddly, though, threats to the entire universe seem to be limited mainly to the tie-ins. The only time onscreen Trek ever featured an imminent threat to the entire universe was in "The Alternative Factor," and that's best forgotten. There were a couple of more gradual threats to at least a large portion of the known universe -- the anti-time anomaly in "All Good Things" (though I'm not convinced that was more than just a Q illusion) and the proto-universe in "Playing God." And the temporal "hot war" launched by Vosk in "Storm Front" was said to be "destroying all of time," though from context, I think Daniels just meant it was disrupting known history, not actually destroying the fabric of reality. So I don't think that one counts.

So as a rule, canonical Star Trek goes to the "save the universe" well a lot less often than other mass-media SF/fantasy tends to do. (How many times has entire universe been endangered or destroyed in just the past decade of Doctor Who?) It's barely a trope the franchise has even bothered with -- a maximum of once per series, and never in the movies, where you'd expect the threats to be bigger and more cosmic. Yet it's a lot more common in the tie-ins. That's an interesting difference.
 
The solanogen-based species from TNG - "Night Terrors". In TTN - Sight Unseen, they are revealed to be the sole intelligent species which is trying to escape a collapsing pocket dimension. In STO, they are a scientist caste of the Iconians who were accidentally exiled into subspace.

Though fun fact here, according to the Author of that novel (in the thread on this very forum), CBS asked him to use the name the STO Dev's gave them: 'Solenae'.
 
Though fun fact here, according to the Author of that novel (in the thread on this very forum), CBS asked him to use the name the STO Dev's gave them: 'Solenae'.

Although, thank goodness, he explained "Solanae" as the name Starfleet had given them based on their being "solanogen-based life forms," which makes more sense than it somehow being their name for themselves (although I don't know how STO presents it).
 
Although, thank goodness, he explained "Solanae" as the name Starfleet had given them based on their being "solanogen-based life forms," which makes more sense than it somehow being their name for themselves (although I don't know how STO presents it).

I don't recall how the name comes up in STO, been a while since I read the dialogue. Once I play a mission once I usually skip dialogue in other play through.

Couple other Novel Elements in STO:

Captain Mackenzie Calhoun is a PVP Mission giver on K-7. No mention if he ever captained a Starship named Excalibur in game, not sure if it was mentioned in Path to 2409.

Counsellor Philipa[sic] Matthias from the DS9 novels is Counsellor on the Enterprise-F, she has a similar backstory as well, she mentions taking over Dax's role on DS9 after she left to Captain the Aventine. STO Spelled her named with only one 'l' not sure if that is a mistake, but it sounds like they're meant to be the same character.

The Separate Romulan states mentioned in Post-Nemesis novels existed, but their histories were different.
 
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Though fun fact here, according to the Author of that novel (in the thread on this very forum), CBS asked him to use the name the STO Dev's gave them: 'Solenae'.

The two aren't mutually exclusive, as the Iconians in STO use servitor races, including the solanae. It's remarkable how many inconsistencies that covers as long as you squint a bit at things like the bluegills.
 
I don't recall how the name comes up in STO, been a while since I read the dialogue. Once I play a mission once I usually skip dialogue in other play through.

Couple other Novel Elements in STO:

Captain Mackenzie Calhoun is a PVP Mission giver on K-7. No mention if he ever captained a Starship named Excalibur in game, not sure if it was mentioned in Path to 2409.

Counsellor Philipa[sic] Matthias from the DS9 novels is Counsellor on the Enterprise-F, she has a similar backstory as well, she mentions taking over Dax's role on DS9 after she left to Captain the Aventine. STO Spelled her named with only one 'l' not sure if that is a mistake, but it sounds like they're meant to be the same character.

The Separate Romulan states mentioned in Post-Nemesis novels existed, but their histories were different.

STO does seem very much like it was intended to be in continuity with the novels until very late in the day of its release. After the ways parted things seem to have been rejiggled the tiniest amount...the books diverge further and further away, especially after Destiny...even then STO sort of hovers around the edges of book continuity, including things like licensing the Aventine. After Delta Rising it basically gives up this tendency, but with recent developments it may be more in line with the novels. In fact if the novels can just anomaly the old Ds9 station in place, and pop Data back in uniform they would be almost on the same page again. So to speak. The Borg in STO have always been vague...we know they returned, but I am not sure precisely where they returned from...again, that is until Delta Rising, when we get Hugh and the Borg CoOperative show up, inconsistent with the Caeliar remnant stuff and Seven of Nine is still rocking her Bluetooth. For a video game, which is always going to rely on shooting things at its core, STO has been doing almost as good a job as the novels for continuing the screen continuity....as they are free to retcon their own story as they go, this will only increase as they pick up more voice talent and refine the story. The console release will make it the most mainstream continuity outside of the series itself, so I wonder if there won't be some increased convergence as time goes by.

Maybe we can get a novel with Tom Rikers kid punching turrets. Should fit right in with a Bashir novel corridor shootout.
 
STO, though, has almost no logic regarding casual physics. Species from all seven seasons of Voyager are dealt with in STO willy-nilly in the same missions, with no regard for the fact that their home territories couldn't possibly be located next door to each other (and they generally don't have transwarp propulsion, or else they would be able to stand on equal footing with the Federation). With the Borg's transwarp conduit network gone, Hugh's ex-Borg and Riley Frazier's Cooperative couldn't have possibly encountered each other nor make any significant inroads into Borg core territory.

Coincidentally (probably because fans-turned-professionals couldn't resist using it), both STO and Kirsten Beyer's Voyager novels say that the Krenim of the prime timeline are aware of the events of the "Year of Hell" timeline.
 
STO, though, has almost no logic regarding casual physics. Species from all seven seasons of Voyager are dealt with in STO willy-nilly in the same missions, with no regard for the fact that their home territories couldn't possibly be located next door to each other (and they generally don't have transwarp propulsion, or else they would be able to stand on equal footing with the Federation). With the Borg's transwarp conduit network gone, Hugh's ex-Borg and Riley Frazier's Cooperative couldn't have possibly encountered each other nor make any significant inroads into Borg core territory.

I don't play STO (I couldn't get it to work, sad to say). However, I wouldn't be surprised if they fudged this for the sake of making an entertaining game. After all, the point of the game is to let the players have a fun experience messing around in the Star Trek world, not be slavish to every little detail (and yeah, I know I tend to be a bit of a continuity hound, but there are limits to that, IMHO, esp. in regards to non-canon tie-ins).

Coincidentally (probably because fans-turned-professionals couldn't resist using it), both STO and Kirsten Beyer's Voyager novels say that the Krenim of the prime timeline are aware of the events of the "Year of Hell" timeline.

Frankly, unless they came up with some weird technobabble, I think they shouldn't have done that. (Out of curiosity, which Year of Hell? The first one with Kes in "Before and After," or the one with Seven in "Year of Hell, Parts I and II"?)
 
The two aren't mutually exclusive, as the Iconians in STO use servitor races, including the solanae. It's remarkable how many inconsistencies that covers as long as you squint a bit at things like the bluegills.

I didn't say they were the same, I'm just saying CBS asked the author to use the STO name.
 
Frankly, unless they came up with some weird technobabble, I think they shouldn't have done that. (Out of curiosity, which Year of Hell? The first one with Kes in "Before and After," or the one with Seven in "Year of Hell, Parts I and II"?)

For the Voyager novels it was only the latter, I believe.

Though as a complete side note, thinking about that did make me realize a key difference between the two. I'd never thought about it before, but in the "Before and After" Year of Hell, Voyager had never had the opportunity to develop temporal shielding since they were never able to get the frequency from the torpedo. That meant they never would have drawn Annorax's attention, Voyager wouldn't have been a target of his time ship, and they would have been able to push through Krenim space without any risk of getting wiped from the timeline, just the normal risk of getting blown up. I always thought that was just an oversight between the two, another plot hole, but that actually holds together kind of nicely.
 
STO, though, has almost no logic regarding casual physics. Species from all seven seasons of Voyager are dealt with in STO willy-nilly in the same missions, with no regard for the fact that their home territories couldn't possibly be located next door to each other (and they generally don't have transwarp propulsion, or else they would be able to stand on equal footing with the Federation). With the Borg's transwarp conduit network gone, Hugh's ex-Borg and Riley Frazier's Cooperative couldn't have possibly encountered each other nor make any significant inroads into Borg core territory.

Coincidentally (probably because fans-turned-professionals couldn't resist using it), both STO and Kirsten Beyer's Voyager novels say that the Krenim of the prime timeline are aware of the events of the "Year of Hell" timeline.

To be fair, everyone and their mother has quantum slipstream drive now. Everyone. And we don't know how or when Hugh met up with the co op (Borg supermarkets) so it all just about hangs together. We know for instance that the RSE brought in some hirogen under sela. And most of the early voyager races don't really show up apart from some Kazon. The kobali stuff is nicely done, if raising awkward questions, and surprisingly the Vidiians haven't shown up that I recall. The big hole is Janeway shaped though, but Kate is probably too pricey or busy.

Next year will probably see the gamma quadrant finally happen unless that's on the back burner for the new series stuff.
 
I don't play STO (I couldn't get it to work, sad to say). However, I wouldn't be surprised if they fudged this for the sake of making an entertaining game. After all, the point of the game is to let the players have a fun experience messing around in the Star Trek world, not be slavish to every little detail (and yeah, I know I tend to be a bit of a continuity hound, but there are limits to that, IMHO, esp. in regards to non-canon tie-ins).



Frankly, unless they came up with some weird technobabble, I think they shouldn't have done that. (Out of curiosity, which Year of Hell? The first one with Kes in "Before and After," or the one with Seven in "Year of Hell, Parts I and II"?)

The weird technobabble in both cases actually works out well, and it's entirely likely that it's both versions in STO. The way they linked it all into enterprise, allowing for the cheese sometimes needed in a video game, actually works as well.

The novels version is likely to be the episode version, but it's open enough that again it could be both.
 
For the Voyager novels it was only the latter, I believe.

Though as a complete side note, thinking about that did make me realize a key difference between the two. I'd never thought about it before, but in the "Before and After" Year of Hell, Voyager had never had the opportunity to develop temporal shielding since they were never able to get the frequency from the torpedo. That meant they never would have drawn Annorax's attention, Voyager wouldn't have been a target of his time ship, and they would have been able to push through Krenim space without any risk of getting wiped from the timeline, just the normal risk of getting blown up. I always thought that was just an oversight between the two, another plot hole, but that actually holds together kind of nicely.

I think the ending indicates that Annorax never built the timeship in the final iteration of the timeline.
 
Here's another fun one: in the novels, Chekov lives a normal live in the 24th century until the Watraii affair of Vulcan's Soul and his subsequent retirement. In STO, some time after the opening segment of Generations, Chekov joins Temporal Fleet Command, the game's Federation-aligned, pro-Temporal Accords force. He works with the 25th century player, 29th century temporal agents, and 31st Daniels at the Battle of Procyon V in the 26th century. It's illogical but awesome!
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The two aren't mutually exclusive, as the Iconians in STO use servitor races, including the solanae. It's remarkable how many inconsistencies that covers as long as you squint a bit at things like the bluegills.
I disagree. The STO Solanae are portrayed as a normal space species which was accidentally exiled into subspace during the Iconians' heyday. The novelverse Solanae are native to their subspace realm.
Frankly, unless they came up with some weird technobabble, I think they shouldn't have done that. (Out of curiosity, which Year of Hell? The first one with Kes in "Before and After," or the one with Seven in "Year of Hell, Parts I and II"?)
The two-part episode with Annorax's weapon ship. See for yourself.
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In the novelverse, the prime timeline Krenim found temporally-preserved logs from the U.S.S. Voyager of the two-part episode timeline.

Though as a complete side note, thinking about that did make me realize a key difference between the two. I'd never thought about it before, but in the "Before and After" Year of Hell, Voyager had never had the opportunity to develop temporal shielding since they were never able to get the frequency from the torpedo. That meant they never would have drawn Annorax's attention, Voyager wouldn't have been a target of his time ship, and they would have been able to push through Krenim space without any risk of getting wiped from the timeline, just the normal risk of getting blown up. I always thought that was just an oversight between the two, another plot hole, but that actually holds together kind of nicely.
I think the ending indicates that Annorax never built the timeship in the final iteration of the timeline.
Yeah, there is no reason for aggressive Annorax to exist in "Before and After". In fact, logically the two-part episode "Year of Hell" timeline must have been the first to get erased, since the ending propagated changes to history all the way to the 22nd century, whereas "Before and After" only altered history back to 2373. Otherwise, it makes no sense for the characters to remember the ending of "Before and After", which was a normal timeframe setting. That's the way the novels have gone: the Voyager crew remembers how the Doctor stopped Kes from bouncing around in time "Before and After", and Kes retains fragmentary memories of her experiences in the "Before and After" timeline.

On that note, VOY - A Pocket Full of Lies portrays that the Annorax of the prime timeline was still a renowned temporal scientist, but also an advocate of peace. The Krenim were shocked to discover the logs of the "Year of Hell" timeline.
 
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In the novel verse, the prime timeline Krenim found temporally-preserved logs from the U.S.S. Voyager of the two-part episode timeline.



Yeah, there is no reason for aggressive Annorax to exist in "Before and After". In fact, logically the two-part episode "Year of Hell" timeline must have been the first to get erased, since the ending propagated changes to history all the way to the 22nd century, whereas "Before and After" only altered history back to 2373. Otherwise, it makes no sense for the characters to remember the ending of "Before and After", which was a normal timeframe setting. That's the way the novels have gone: the Voyager crew remembers how the Doctor stopped Kes from bouncing around in time "Before and After", and Kes retains fragmentary memories of her experiences in the "Before and After" timeline.

On that note, VOY - A Pocket Full of Lies portrays that the Annorax of the prime timeline was still a renowned temporal scientist, but also an advocate of peace. The Krenim were shocked to discover the logs of the "Year of Hell" timeline.

Thank you. I always wondered what happened differently with the Before and After Year of Hell because the crew remembered it. There was no reset.
 
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