Multiple versions of the same story

[JD]

Oh, cool. I'm actually working my way through The Fall right now.
EDIT: I just looked him up on Memory Beta, and Thomas has made several appearances in books and comics. Would it be possible to put all of these appearances into one timeline or are there irreconcilable differences?

 

[borgboy]

Tom is in one of the Double Helix novels as a prequel to both Voyager and Tom's DS9 episode. He's also in Imzadi II.

 

[Jinn]

Tom is in one of the Double Helix novels as a prequel to both Voyager and Tom's DS9 episode.

That was TNG Double Helix #4: Quarantine.

Oh, cool. I'm actually working my way through The Fall right now.

As am I. After finishing the Poisened Chalice though, I took a break and returned to the "glory" days of the past and finally read the KHAAAAAAAAN (sorry, I can't help it...) duology, Dayton's 20th century (currently) duology, The Rings of Time and the fantastic Vulcan's Soul trilgoy. And the Captain Proton novel and novella were really great too, as was the Q Continuum trilogy. What was I talking about?

EDIT: I just looked him up on Memory Beta, and Thomas has made several appearances in books and comics. Would it be possible to put all of these appearances into one timeline or are there irreconcilable differences?

I don't recall any continuity issues between Quarantine and The Poisened Chalice.

 

[Extrocomp]

Although, thank goodness, he explained "Solanae" as the name Starfleet had given them based on their being "solanogen-based life forms," which makes more sense than it somehow being their name for themselves (although I don't know how STO presents it).

If you have a problem with the name "Solanae" then you're not going to like STO's name for the purple-skinned aliens from Journey To Babel.

http://sto.gamepedia.com/Violacean

 

[MarkJones73]

It's amazing how many "final missions" Kirk and co actually had!

 

[Christopher]

If you have a problem with the name "Solanae" then you're not going to like STO's name for the purple-skinned aliens from Journey To Babel.

http://sto.gamepedia.com/Violacean

Wow, that's really on the nose. I have those down in my ROTF notes as Icorians, since they're described in Trek Lit as having purple-gray skin, so maybe some Icorian ethnic groups are purpler than others.

 

[Idran]

Oh, another example came to mind earlier: the collapse of the T'Kon empire. By the Q-Continuum trilogy, it was a result of 0's discontent at their having "beaten" his test, while by Vanguard, it was the end result of a long-standing conflict between the T'Kon and the Shedai culminating in the Shedai wiping them out before they could wipe the Shedai out.

 

[Extrocomp]

Wow, that's really on the nose. I have those down in my ROTF notes as Icorians, since they're described in Trek Lit as having purple-gray skin, so maybe some Icorian ethnic groups are purpler than others.

It get worse. In STO, the hooded aliens from Journey To Babel are called "Zambeans". Maybe because one of them's black.

Oh, another example came to mind earlier: the collapse of the T'Kon empire. By the Q-Continuum trilogy, it was a result of 0's discontent at their having "beaten" his test, while by Vanguard, it was the end result of a long-standing conflict between the T'Kon and the Shedai culminating in the Shedai wiping them out before they could wipe the Shedai out.

Your mention of the Q Continuum trilogy reminded me of the many inconsistent portrayals of the Galactic Barrier.

In the Q Continuum trilogy, the barrier was created by the Q Continuum 500,000 years ago to keep a malevolent being named 0 out of the Milky Way Galaxy. Even in 2374, it is still extremely dangerous for starships to travel through. It is implied that when people are "mutated" by the barrier, they are possessed by a small portion of 0's essence.

In the Stargazer novels, the barrier can be easily traveled through in 2333 due to improvements in shield technology. There are a number of star systems outside the barrier, including one populated by the descendants of the SS Valiant crew, who all have minor telepathic and telekinetic abilities. Those who gain god-like power from the barrier and get killed continue to exist in a non-corporeal state and return to the barrier.

In Q-Squared, Q became trapped in the barrier after a fight with Trelane left him severely weakened. Gary Mitchell was possessed by Q and Elizabeth Dehner received a portion of Q's essence.

In Captain's Glory, it is theorized that the barrier was created by the first humanoid race 4 billion years ago to protect the Milky Way Galaxy from the Totality. Despite this, Picard references the Q Continuum trilogy when he recalls an attempt to penetrate the barrier using an artificial wormhole six years ago.

In The Wounded Sky, the galactic barrier was a temporary phenomenon that no longer existed in 2275. It was the leading wavefront of a "megabubble" that was created by an exploding "metastar" in one of the Milky Way Galaxy's satellite globular clusters.

 

[Christopher]

It get worse. In STO, the hooded aliens from Journey To Babel are called "Zambeans". Maybe because one of them's black.

Hopefully that's just a coincidence. Anyway, I called them Makusians (from Makus III) in Forgotten History.

 

[Tim Thomason]

I don't have an issue with descriptive names for alien species, because I always assume they are exonyms provided from early sources and kept within translator databases or whatever.

Let's say a group of purple aliens ran across a trade ship in the 22nd century. They were named Violaceans by the boomer captain (because they're violet). Two months later, a different culture of Violaceans ran across a United Earth ship, and their actual name (let's say "Icko'rrhah") was modified into Icorian. That's two names for the same species that were not connected for perhaps some time.

The Icko'rrhah probably don't care what they're called, because they all speak the Icko'rrhah language and everything we say is translated for their benefit. We might be called the equivalent of "short people" and "annoyances" in their language.

This is also why I rarely have an issue with the Enterprise episode "Acquisition," since I've always assumed "Ferengi" isn't the Ferengi word for Ferengi.

 

[Christopher]

This is also why I rarely have an issue with the Enterprise episode "Acquisition," since I've always assumed "Ferengi" isn't the Ferengi word for Ferengi.

Of course, the Ferengi were never identified by that name in "Acquisition" anyway. Still, they could've just spoken a different language than the one that's dominant among Ferengi in the 24th century. The dominant 24th-century culture could very well call themselves Ferengi, but that doesn't mean they don't have other subcultures that speak different languages and have different names -- just as humans to an English speaker would be ningen to a Japanese speaker, Menschen to a German speaker, etc.

 

[WebLurker]

Of course, the Ferengi were never identified by that name in "Acquisition" anyway. Still, they could've just spoken a different language than the one that's dominant among Ferengi in the 24th century. The dominant 24th-century culture could very well call themselves Ferengi, but that doesn't mean they don't have other subcultures that speak different languages and have different names -- just as humans to an English speaker would be ningen to a Japanese speaker, Menschen to a German speaker, etc.

Problem is, if I recall correctly, the "Acquisition" Ferengi's language is pretty much consistent with the smatterings of it from DS9, and this was after the Ferengi Alliance was founded. However, since the Ferengi were the ones using the universal translators (meaning that Starfleet never got a record of it), I don't see why they need to be using a completely different language. (Of course, I always thought that the "continuity errors" with that episode were not that troubling, so your mileage may vary.)

 

[Christopher]

I didn't say they "needed" to speak a different language -- I just object in general to the common tendency to assume that an entire alien species has only a single language and culture, instead of thousands of them like humans do. So I feel the need to point out that when we're speaking about an alien people's name for themselves, we can't assume they only have one.

 

[Jinn]

Oh, another example came to mind earlier: the collapse of the T'Kon empire. By the Q-Continuum trilogy, it was a result of 0's discontent at their having "beaten" his test, while by Vanguard, it was the end result of a long-standing conflict between the T'Kon and the Shedai culminating in the Shedai wiping them out before they could wipe the Shedai out.

I think you can rationalize it by saying that the Shedai were responsible for the general collapse of the T'Kon sun before all the Q Continuum trilogy happened. Though somne time has passed since I've read Vanguard, so I am not sure if that fits entirely with what was established there.

 

[WebLurker]

I didn't say they "needed" to speak a different language -- I just object in general to the common tendency to assume that an entire alien species has only a single language and culture, instead of thousands of them like humans do. So I feel the need to point out that when we're speaking about an alien people's name for themselves, we can't assume they only have one.

Okay. Although, given that the name "Ferengi" is used so consistently, doesn't that suggest that that's the name for themselves, esp. given that it's used by aliens who use different languages?

 

[Christopher]

Okay. Although, given that the name "Ferengi" is used so consistently, doesn't that suggest that that's the name for themselves, esp. given that it's used by aliens who use different languages?

Yes, of course Star Trek virtually always assumes that every alien race has only one name, one language, one culture, one religion, one hairstyle, one fashion sense. I'm not saying that isn't the case on the show, I'm saying it's stupid as hell that it's the case, because we're talking about entire species that must have thousands of years of history just like humans do. Logically, no matter what lazy assumptions the writers make, any alien species should have hundreds or thousands of different current and historical languages and many different names for themselves. So the name used by other cultures is going to be whatever name they pick up from the currently dominant culture -- for instance, other species call us "human" and our planet "Earth" because the dominant culture in Trek humanity is an English-speaking one. But that doesn't mean that English is the only language humans have.

 

[WebLurker]

Yes, of course Star Trek virtually always assumes that every alien race has only one name, one language, one culture, one religion, one hairstyle, one fashion sense. I'm not saying that isn't the case on the show, I'm saying it's stupid as hell that it's the case, because we're talking about entire species that must have thousands of years of history just like humans do. Logically, no matter what lazy assumptions the writers make, any alien species should have hundreds or thousands of different current and historical languages and many different names for themselves.

IMHO, in fiction, stuff like this is a reasonable sacrifice of realism for clarity's sake.

Also, there have been shown to be some variations within cultures, like the Klingons. Case in point, in "Looking for Par'mach in All the Wrong Places" [DS9] (or however that word is spelled), Worf makes reference to the idea that a Klingon lady comes from a specific region of Q'onoS with its specific traditions. A lot of TOS Klingons have shorter hair than in other shows (maybe simply a fashion of the times, but still). Some Klingons believe that any form of capture requires suicide to remove the disgrace ("Birthright, Parts I and II" [TNG]), while other Klingons simply live in disgrace after release ("A Matter of Honor" [TNG]), or even think that as long as there's a chance of escape, they haven't been dishonored to the point of suicide ("In Purgatory's Shadow" [DS9]).

That's not even going into the differences we see in Vulcans, from ENT to TOS onwards, Bajorans (some religious, others agnostic), the more death before dishonor Romulans of TOS/TAS and the slyer ones in TNG onwards, etc. So, while I will concede that Star Trek does play the monoculture card a lot, they also add some diversity to the ones that get more exposure (the universal translator also makes it hard to determine actual language usage).

So the name used by other cultures is going to be whatever name they pick up from the currently dominant culture -- for instance, other species call us "human" and our planet "Earth" because the dominant culture in Trek humanity is an English-speaking one. But that doesn't mean that English is the only language humans have.

While English seems to have become the dominant human language in the future, other languages do continue to exist ("The Lorelei Signal" [TAS], "11001001" [TNG]) (I've always wondered if when Picard visits his family in "Family" [TNG] if they were actually speaking English, or if it was French "translated" into English for our benefit.)

Also worth noting that there have been some alternate names for humans; "Earthmen" on the Romulan side of things, and "Earthers" for the Klingons.

 

[Idran]

I think you can rationalize it by saying that the Shedai were responsible for the general collapse of the T'Kon sun before all the Q Continuum trilogy happened. Though somne time has passed since I've read Vanguard, so I am not sure if that fits entirely with what was established there.

I'm not sure how well that fits with Q-Continuum; it was presented more as the natural death of the sun that they'd been preparing for for a while, and the T'Kon empire didn't seem to be part of any significant conflicts from the way it was presented, it was in a pretty stable and calm state. It kind of works if you squint?

 

[Christopher]

IMHO, in fiction, stuff like this is a reasonable sacrifice of realism for clarity's sake.

In a single story, sure, but if it's a recurring species, there's certainly room to develop it in a more plausibly diverse way. And if you're depicting members of that civilization a whole two centuries earlier than usual, as "Acquisition" did, then it's downright negligent to portray them as exactly the same in every particular. (Imagine the comprehension gap between yourself and your ancestors from 1816.) Indeed, that's why I like ENT's treatment of Vulcans so much -- their culture was recognizable as Vulcan, but different enough to make sense given the passage of time. Less so with their portrayal of the Klingons and Romulans, but at least their Klingons had different wardrobe, as opposed to the other stuff where the Klingon military wore the same unchanging uniform for a whole century.

Also worth noting that there have been some alternate names for humans; "Earthmen" on the Romulan side of things, and "Earthers" for the Klingons.

But that doesn't cover humans who were born on Mars or Deneva or Alpha Centauri or other colony worlds. "Earthling" and the like are more like geographical designators than species designators. (And for that matter, wouldn't a dolphin or an elephant be an Earthling too?)

The worst offender, though, was the Andorians' "pinkskin" in Enterprise. The vast majority of humans are not actually pink-skinned, though you'd never know it from watching Star Trek. I've tried to phase out that slur in my ROTF novels.

 

[Tuskin38]

Couple other novel elements in STO. There is a Corps of Engineering ship called da Vinci is mentioned in some flavor text, but is never seen and the class isn't given, but considering all the other nods to novels it could be a reference.

Virinat is the starting planet for Romulan characters, and it is agricultural world like it is mentioned in the novels.