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Why The Huge Gap Between TMP & WOK?

OK, thanks. The situations are not comparable. Shepard was still in the same pool with other eligible astronauts. Being grounded for his ear condition wasn't held against him, and he had kept up with the program and worked very hard to get up to speed with Apollo, and made a better impression on his bosses than Gordon Cooper had. But he and Cooper were on basically the same level, it wasn't Shepard exerting influence from a much higher level for his own benefit.
He wasn't in the same pool. And until his cure he WAS the boss (along with Slayton). It's actually a very comparable situation, even if Cooper and Shepard were contemporaries and Decker and Kirk were not.

Back to the not real world, didn't I read that there was objection to Kirk being "temporarily demoted" from some advisor? That if he was an admiral he'd stay an admiral, even if he was given the Enterprise? I think it's in the Phase II book.
 
If 'Kirk benefitted Starfleet more by being an active commander out in the field' then why make him an Admiral again after TMP?
Because, as Christopher pointed out above, sometimes management can make bad decisions. And it's also possible that Kirk changed his mind sometime in the 10-12 years between TMP and TWOK and wanted to be an Admiral again. From what we saw at the beginning of TWOK, only his rank was the same, not his responsibilities. In TMP Kirk was the Chief of Starfleet Operations, a vague but important-sounding title. In TWOK, he's either teaching at the Academy or is possibly its Commandant, which certainly sounds more stimulating for a man like Kirk. As he said in TSFS, "Young minds, fresh ideas. Be tolerant."

It kind of suggests that literally no crises or problems occur in the dozen or so years between TMP and WOK.
I don't see why. Starfleet existed as an organization both before and after Kirk came around. There have to be some other competent commanders out there.

In fact, on top of that, Kirk is still an Admiral all the way through to the end of Voyage Home, yet Starfleet keep having to turn to him for help cf. the exchange about command between Kirk and Spock in WOK, they never seem to learn their lesson do they!
:wtf: The situation in TWOK was the very definition of "special circumstances," and apparently even the regulation that Admiral Kirk take command during an emergency was subject to Kirk's discretion. He stole the Enterprise in TSFS and was still in command in TVH, when it was just dumb luck that he and the crew were around to solve the crisis. There was no opportunity for him to be demoted between TWOK and TVH.

However, WOK acts like TMP never happened.
I wouldn't say that. TWOK never directly contradicts TMP (Like by having Kirk say, "I haven't commanded a Starship in 15 years"). It just never goes out of its way to acknowledge it. You can still easily believe that both happened.
 
I'd also like to point out that we've no evidence the Peter Principle is in effect here. Outside a few minutes in TWOK we never saw Kirk being an Admiral. We never saw or heard any opinions of his work in th Admiralty. For all we know he was just as great as a flag officer (or even better!) as he was as a Starship commander. His not wanting to be an Admiral doesn't mean he was bad at it - it just means he didn't like it as much as he enjoyed captaining a starship.
 
It's not that he was a bad admiral, just that a desk job wasn't the best use of his particular talents. "Commanding a starship is your first, best destiny."
 
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I wouldn't say that. TWOK never directly contradicts TMP (Like by having Kirk say, "I haven't commanded a Starship in 15 years"). It just never goes out of its way to acknowledge it. You can still easily believe that both happened.
WOK acknowledges TOS simply being a sequel to "Space Seed", but unfortunately no mention of the events in TMP.
 
It's not that he was a bad admiral, just that a desk job wasn't the best use of his particular talents. "Commanding a starship is your first, best destiny."

That's the definition of the Peter principle though, that you are promoted into incompetence based on qualities of excellence in your present position. If he's a good Admiral then the peter principle doesn't apply.

Also, by this point Spock is in his " logic is only the beginning of wisdom" phase - the well being of his friends is more important than pure utilitarian logic, no? That was his arc in TMP, rejecting pure logic for something more. His quote, to me, seems more a response to Kirk's midlife crisis and his belief commanding a starship is Kirk's purpose, not working as a flag officer. Personal fulfilment is not the same as career trajectory based on skill, as most people discover.

You could be the most kick ass wall street trader in the world, but would you be fulfilled and happy if you weren't writing? Would you consider working the derivative market your best destiny even if you were more effective at it?
 
Yes, McCoy said the line about turning death into a fighting chance to live.

During the birthday scene McCoy has a line similar to Spock's about how what Kirk wants is to be hopping galaxies. Maybe that's why you thought the best destiny line was his.
 
It appears to be "official" that there is 12 years between TMP and TWOK. But TWOK has the one connecting date that makes sense with no fudging or hand waving: It's 15 years between Space Seed and TWOK. Because it was 15 years between the episode Space Seed and the film TWOK. Even if we compress all of the other reference dates (at least 2 more years of the Fiver Year Mission after Space Seed, 2.5 years of Kirk being Chief of Starfleet operations) that still only leaves 10.5 years. And it's probably less than that (because you'll take TAS out of my cold dead hands). Also Word of God (Meyer) says Kirk is turning 49 (I always figured it was 50) and it's 15 years after Kirk was 34.

Meyer couldn't do distance rate and time very well (twelve hours and forty-three minutes away at warp, but not nearly that long by sublight?), but he apparently could do ages.
 
...Isn't that what I said? TWOK doesn't go out of its way to acknowledge TMP.
Yes, I agree. I am saying it would have been proper for a mention of something from TMP in WOK such as a line of dialogue referring to: V'Ger, Decker, Ilia or whatever.
 
It appears to be "official" that there is 12 years between TMP and TWOK. But TWOK has the one connecting date that makes sense with no fudging or hand waving: It's 15 years between Space Seed and TWOK. Because it was 15 years between the episode Space Seed and the film TWOK.

I think I discussed this earlier in the thread -- the Okuda Chronology put TWOK 18 years after "Space Seed" for unclear reasons, and my best guess is that they felt TFF had to be more than 20 years after "Balance of Terror" to fit the Nimbus III backstory. Although I think it would've made more sense to round the Nimbus III date downward (or assume it was in Nimbian years rather than Earth years) than to add to the TWOK date. But we've been stuck with that dating for an awfully long time now.


Yes, I agree. I am saying it would have been proper for a mention of something from TMP in WOK such as a line of dialogue referring to: V'Ger, Decker, Ilia or whatever.

Well, one can take the reuse of the same ship and spacedock models, sets, props, and certain costumes (spacesuits, radiation suits, security armor) as evidence of continuity, as well as the use of the same department colors on the uniforms and the same arrowhead-and-circle version of the insignia. And I see Spock's more relaxed, serene personality in TWOK and afterward as an outgrowth of the emotional epiphany he had in TMP. Without learning the value of "This simple feeling" and the barrenness of pure logic in TMP, he wouldn't have been able to express his friendship for Kirk so openly and casually in TWOK, or to say "Logic is the beginning of wisdom, not the end" in TUC. So the evidence is in the character continuity.

Also, the character of Jedda (on Carol's Genesis team) was scripted to be a Deltan (and depicted as such in the novelization), though he looked human in the final film. So clearly Harve Bennett was willing to pick up on some ideas introduced in TMP.

At first, I was going to say I didn't think it would've been proper to mention the V'Ger incident, given that a dozen years had passed. Surely they'd had a whole bunch of other adventures in the interim, so it would be contrived if they just happened to be thinking of that particular long-ago one. But then I thought that maybe when Carol was defending Starfleet to David, she could've said something about how they saved Earth from V'Ger -- since the near-destruction of Earth is the sort of thing that would probably be talked about for a long time thereafter, like how Americans still talk about 9/11. That would also have been an opportunity to establish how much time had passed since the previous movie. But of course, they preferred to largely ignore TMP, or at least be agnostic about it.
 
....
At first, I was going to say I didn't think it would've been proper to mention the V'Ger incident, given that a dozen years had passed. Surely they'd had a whole bunch of other adventures in the interim, so it would be contrived if they just happened to be thinking of that particular long-ago one. But then I thought that maybe when Carol was defending Starfleet to David, she could've said something about how they saved Earth from V'Ger -- since the near-destruction of Earth is the sort of thing that would probably be talked about for a long time thereafter, like how Americans still talk about 9/11. That would also have been an opportunity to establish how much time had passed since the previous movie. But of course, they preferred to largely ignore TMP, or at least be agnostic about it.
Christopher, excellent example, a line of dialogue such as that would have been great beyond the obvious production designs that were carried over from TMP.
 
But TWOK has the one connecting date that makes sense with no fudging or hand waving: It's 15 years between Space Seed and TWOK. Because it was 15 years between the episode Space Seed and the film TWOK.
Agreed. And the 15-year timespan is confirmed by both Khan and Kirk, to boot! It's very strange that the Okudas chose to disregard such an unambiguous date.

I think I discussed this earlier in the thread -- the Okuda Chronology put TWOK 18 years after "Space Seed" for unclear reasons, and my best guess is that they felt TFF had to be more than 20 years after "Balance of Terror" to fit the Nimbus III backstory.
It think it was that, combined with the "2283" date on the Romulan Ale. It's a shame, because 2283 minus 15 years gives us a 2268 date for "Space Seed" and 49 years gives us a 2234 birth year for Kirk, both of which work pretty well with the overall structure the Okudas worked out.

It's kind of funny that since 2283 is one of the few definitive years we get in Trek (with "The Neutral Zone"'s 2364 being another), determining a chronology around it partly depends on how you interpret McCoy's "Well, it takes this stuff a while to ferment" line. Is Kirk teasing McCoy for buying him a really recent (i.e. cheap) bottle of Romulan Ale? Was it a gag gift before the big gift of the eyeglasses? Or did McCoy go all out and it's really old? Could it even be a future date, and the ale hasn't properly fermented yet? Is "2283" an Earth year, a Romulan year, or something else altogether? You kind of have to figure this stuff out before you can determine how valid the "2283" date is.

Although I think it would've made more sense to round the Nimbus III date downward (or assume it was in Nimbian years rather than Earth years) than to add to the TWOK date. But we've been stuck with that dating for an awfully long time now.
I agree. Most of the Chronology assumptions I disagree with are in the TOS era, mostly because I feel like several of them are at cross-purposes with the original creator intent (McCoy was in his 30s during TOS? Really?).
 
It's not that he was a bad admiral, just that a desk job wasn't the best use of his particular talents. "Commanding a starship is your first, best destiny."

Morrow called Kirk his "best officer", so it stands to reason he was an effective--albeit unhappy--flag officer. I like the idea of his being the Academy Commandant, which actually makes a lot of sense. Cadets and junior officers would surely look up to someone like Kirk because of his exploits while commanding the Enterprise, and Kirk has always seemed to me the sort who doesn't mind taking youngsters under his wing (e.g., Ensign Garrovick).
 
Morrow called Kirk his "best officer", so it stands to reason he was an effective--albeit unhappy--flag officer. I like the idea of his being the Academy Commandant, which actually makes a lot of sense. Cadets and junior officers would surely look up to someone like Kirk because of his exploits while commanding the Enterprise, and Kirk has always seemed to me the sort who doesn't mind taking youngsters under his wing (e.g., Ensign Garrovick).
So Kirk wouldn't be an example of: "Those who can't, teach" then.
 
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