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Why The Huge Gap Between TMP & WOK?

So Kirk would be throwing his weight around to bump the next serving captain in line out of a command. No real organization would work that way, nor does Kirk seem like the kind of spoiler who would do that to an up-and-coming fellow officer.

Since when has Starfleet ever functioned remotely like a real organization? Riker turned down three consecutive offers for starship commands and stayed in the same posting for 15 years, which in any real organization would be career suicide, and yet he still got a captaincy as soon as it was convenient for the plot. Picard had two starships destroyed out from under him, and they still gave him a third. People like Kira and Odo and Nog and Garak kept serving as Defiant bridge crew even though there must've been plenty of qualified Starfleet personnel available. And let's not even get into Kirk's career trajectory in the Kelvin Timeline. None of it makes any organizational sense, because it bends to serve the needs of the narrative and the continued presence of the lead actors.


Actually, some of what's implied in TMP, if thought through, make him seem more like some kind of foot-stamping brat than the serious but compassionate leader of TOS.

That's not just implied, it's an overt plot point. The first half of the movie is about Kirk being obsessed with getting command back at all costs and McCoy eventually reading him the riot act and getting him to realize how badly he's behaving. It's only after he gets past that obsession and starts working with Decker instead of against him that he's able to command effectively. From then on, he and Decker develop a stronger partnership, and at the climax, Kirk is able to trust Decker's judgment and let him take the action that saves the day. Thereby demonstrating that Kirk has relearned how to be a team player and a better leader.

(I feel you can basically approach TMP as a 2-part episode where the first half is about the Kirk-Decker rivalry and the second half is about Spock's journey and the confrontation with V'Ger.)
 
So Kirk would be throwing his weight around to bump the next serving captain in line out of a command. No real organization would work that way,

Of course not.

latest
 
I know it doesn't jibe at all with what we see in TMP, but I always liked the version of the Nogura scene that we got in the original script to "In Thy Image," where it's Nogura that forces Kirk to realize that he's the most qualified person to lead the V'Ger mission. That seems a lot more like the Kirk we saw every week on TOS.

KIRK
A fine crew on such short notice.

CARSON
If we had the right Captain.

KIRK (puzzled)
Captain Wah Chen is one of the best.

CARSON
The Enterprise leaves in twenty-
four hours, Admiral. Captain Wah
is still at Star-base Six, three
days away at maximum warp.

NOGURA (to Kirk)
Who is the next most qualified
captain?

KIRK
Bar-Lev.

NOGURA
He's never commanded more than a
light cruiser.

KIRK
He's the next qualified available.

NOGURA
Kirk! Who is the best qualified
available?

28 EMPHASIZING KIRK
hesitating a long moment. Then he looks up, meets Nogura
eye to eye.

KIRK
I am.​
 
Since when has Starfleet ever functioned remotely like a real organization? Riker turned down three consecutive offers for starship commands and stayed in the same posting for 15 years, which in any real organization would be career suicide, and yet he still got a captaincy as soon as it was convenient for the plot. Picard had two starships destroyed out from under him, and they still gave him a third. People like Kira and Odo and Nog and Garak kept serving as Defiant bridge crew even though there must've been plenty of qualified Starfleet personnel available. And let's not even get into Kirk's career trajectory in the Kelvin Timeline. None of it makes any organizational sense, because it bends to serve the needs of the narrative and the continued presence of the lead actors.

All examples which come after TMP. There was no real precedent at that point for Starfleet career progression, and to me it would have been preferable if it had gone in a more realistic direction.

That's not just implied, it's an overt plot point. The first half of the movie is about Kirk being obsessed with getting command back at all costs and McCoy eventually reading him the riot act and getting him to realize how badly he's behaving. It's only after he gets past that obsession and starts working with Decker instead of against him that he's able to command effectively. From then on, he and Decker develop a stronger partnership, and at the climax, Kirk is able to trust Decker's judgment and let him take the action that saves the day. Thereby demonstrating that Kirk has relearned how to be a team player and a better leader.

Quite right. To which I would say, if he had really learned to be a team player and a better leader, he would have gone back to Starfleet Command where he could benefit the larger organization. I'm not a big fan of the direction the Kirk character took in the movies.

Of course not.

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I'm not sure about the reference. Alan Shepard commanding Apollo 14?
 
All examples which come after TMP. There was no real precedent at that point for Starfleet career progression, and to me it would have been preferable if it had gone in a more realistic direction.

Sure, it would've made more sense for Kirk to stay an admiral and command the mission, with Decker remaining in command of the ship as captain. That basically would've made the Enterprise Admiral Kirk's flagship. But that's not what the filmmakers wanted. They wanted to go back to the status quo of Captain Kirk and the Enterprise, because that's what the audience was used to. Now, maybe that means they shouldn't have made Kirk an admiral in the first place -- had him hold a groundside posting while still at captain's rank. But the general public might not have understood the difference between "captain" as a rank and "captain" as the commander of a vessel.

Anyway, "realistic" assumes that Starfleet handles rank the same way present-day militaries do, and why should that be the case with a multispecies organization in the future? Roddenberry liked to treat Starfleet ranks more as job titles, to play down the whole miltary-hierarchy angle.

Quite right. To which I would say, if he had really learned to be a team player and a better leader, he would have gone back to Starfleet Command where he could benefit the larger organization. I'm not a big fan of the direction the Kirk character took in the movies.

And how could that possibly serve a series of space adventure stories starring William Shatner as the hero? The audience doesn't want to see faceless cogs in an organization, it wants to see stories about the familiar characters.

Besides, the rationale behind Kirk's return to starship command in both TMP and the Harve Bennett movies is that Kirk benefitted Starfleet more by being an active commander out in the field, using his instincts and experience in action where they did the most good, than he did in an administrative role that didn't make good use of his talents. As Spock said, commanding a starship was Kirk's "first, best destiny." It's about defying the Peter Principle -- about letting someone stay in the job they excel at rather than promoting them out of it and into a job they don't do as well. Surely that's good for the organization as well as for the individual.
 
If 'Kirk benefitted Starfleet more by being an active commander out in the field' then why make him an Admiral again after TMP? It kind of suggests that literally no crises or problems occur in the dozen or so years between TMP and WOK. In fact, on top of that, Kirk is still an Admiral all the way through to the end of Voyage Home, yet Starfleet keep having to turn to him for help cf. the exchange about command between Kirk and Spock in WOK, they never seem to learn their lesson do they!
 
If 'Kirk benefitted Starfleet more by being an active commander out in the field' then why make him an Admiral again after TMP? It kind of suggests that literally no crises or problems occur in the dozen or so years between TMP and WOK. In fact, on top of that, Kirk is still an Admiral all the way through to the end of Voyage Home, yet Starfleet keep having to turn to him for help cf. the exchange about command between Kirk and Spock in WOK, they never seem to learn their lesson do they!
Again this comes back to the mixed up time frame in TMP. If TMP had been set a decade after the 5-year mission then Kirk being an Admiral would make more sense. But having him an Admiral almost right after the 5-year mission makes no sense. What did he do to warrant such a significant promotion from Captain to Admiral in so short a time?

As far portraying Starfleet in a realistic manner somewhat similar to contemporary times then you need to explain Christopher Pike commanding the Enterprise for more than a decade and Commodore Matt Decker commanding a single vessel in "The Doomsday Machine."

Of course, we don't know the full context of Decker's command. Was he in command of a solitary vessel or did he just happen to be the ranking officer aboard when they came across the planet killer? Maybe the Constellation was temporarily searated from a squadron when things went down with the planet killer.
 
But the general public might not have understood the difference between "captain" as a rank and "captain" as the commander of a vessel.
That's an extremely silly notion, not simply because of the slew of other things that the general public already has to accept on some level in order to enjoy a Star Trek film, many of which have no correspondence in the real world whatsoever, unlike that one.
 
If 'Kirk benefitted Starfleet more by being an active commander out in the field' then why make him an Admiral again after TMP?

Since when can organizations be relied upon to make the best choice in every instance? If that were the case, there would be no Peter Principle.


It kind of suggests that literally no crises or problems occur in the dozen or so years between TMP and WOK.

Uhh, no. For one thing, Kirk is surely not the only person in Starfleet who can solve any problem, even if the shows and movies make it look that way. I always assume that other captains are off saving planets and preventing wars and so forth all the time, but we just don't see their adventures because we're focused on this one particular ship and crew.

Also, again, there is exactly zero basis for assuming that Kirk was re-promoted immediately after TMP. There's plenty of room for him to have stayed a captain for years more before finally deciding to give the admiral thing a try again.
 
I'm not sure about the reference. Alan Shepard commanding Apollo 14?
Shepard was grounded for the entirety of the Gemini program because of Ménière's disease. When he was cured during the Apollo program he stepped back into the top spot and commanded Apollo 14. He also had not logged "a single star hour" in almost ten years.
 
Also, again, there is exactly zero basis for assuming that Kirk was re-promoted immediately after TMP. There's plenty of room for him to have stayed a captain for years more before finally deciding to give the admiral thing a try again.
Well, this is my position and my head cannon for post TMP. I want, at least, a second 5YM in there after the V'ger incident. However, WOK acts like TMP never happened. I do wonder how Kirk ever decided that after becoming a Captain again he thought a second go at being an Admiral was going to be any different than his first attempt and if you follow my head cannon it does indeed make him miserable again.
 
^Yeah, but there's more than a decade between TMP and TWOK. That's what this whole thread is about, the hugeness of that gap. So there's plenty of room for more adventures after TMP and everything you describe. He could keep commanding the ship for another 5-7 years, then go back to the admiralty and get miserable after a few years of that.
 
If we accept Kirk commanding for another 5-8 years or so post TOS (which I like) it's possible to accept Starfleet eventually pressuring him to return to the Admiralty and things leading intio TWOK.
 
I just wish we'd had a couple more films with the TMP aesthetic before TWOK came along rather than the fairly hard reboot that Meyer gives us. I think it's an under explored period in Trek but the one I'm most interested at the moment. The road not travelled...
 
Everyone is also assuming Kirk's unhappiness is purely because of his rank, ignoring that it was also his birthday and he was going through a pretty obvious mid life crisis. He was getting old. Meyer specifically points out this is the thrust of Kirk's arc, not that being an Admiral and not captaining a starship is the cause of all his issues - merely a factor in it. He wasn't depressed in TMP - he was determined. Commanding. Confident. Arrogant.

When we start TWOk though he's in a midlife crisis. He has no wife, no children, only one friend celebrates his birthday with him, and who knows what else has happened in the intervening decade. He went from captaining an Interstellar starship to reviewing Cadet performances in simulators and on that same ship. He sees himself as having peaked and all that is left is the slow decline into meaninglessness as a new, younger generation replaces him.

His being "cured" of his mid life crisis is a combination of things - meeting David and having him and Carol back in his life (platonically we assume in Carol's case but never know for sure). Learning that he's not too old to still find purpose again. And, yes, that his proper place is on a starship bridge, not in an office in San Francisco. He doesn't even become "captain" again for another two movies. While his plan seems to be fight to take the Enterprise out again, he doesn't have her yet and his crisis is already over. In that regard he's more like Admiral Kirk of TMP at the end of TWOK, not the start of it. Not depressed, not resigned to fate, but determined to fight for his proper place in the universe.
 
But the general public might not have understood the difference between "captain" as a rank and "captain" as the commander of a vessel.

Captain (Lieutenant) Bligh, Captain (Lieutenant Commander) Queeg, Captain (Lieutenant Commander) Morton (James Cagney in Mister Roberts), Captain (Commander) Richardson (Clark Gable in Robert Wise's own Run Silent Run Deep)... didn't seem to create a problem for the general audience.

Anyway, "realistic" assumes that Starfleet handles rank the same way present-day militaries do, and why should that be the case with a multispecies organization in the future? Roddenberry liked to treat Starfleet ranks more as job titles, to play down the whole miltary-hierarchy angle.

Sure, but they didn't commit to that, they pick and choose. People say it's not like a real-world military, then they write/produce stories where people pull rank, complain about lack of promotion, get court martialed for not obeying orders, follow orders to certain death etc. Those situations carry with them certain implications about the larger system and hierarchy. I find the inconsistencies make it harder to suspend disbelief. If you do not, I have no problem with that.

Besides, the rationale behind Kirk's return to starship command in both TMP and the Harve Bennett movies is that Kirk benefitted Starfleet more by being an active commander out in the field, using his instincts and experience in action where they did the most good, than he did in an administrative role that didn't make good use of his talents. As Spock said, commanding a starship was Kirk's "first, best destiny." It's about defying the Peter Principle -- about letting someone stay in the job they excel at rather than promoting them out of it and into a job they don't do as well. Surely that's good for the organization as well as for the individual.

Yeah, but I don't buy it. One, when you are in the military, it is pretty much wired into your brain that you do what your superiors think is best for the organization. Progression in rank is not just to give orders to more people, it is the authority and ability (and responsibility) to improve, guide, organize, teach and influence on a larger and larger scale. Kirk using his experience to benefit one ship and crew is good, using it to benefit many ships and crews is better.

Two, real people just don't act that way. People who are motivated (and competitive) enough to reach command of a ship don't shy away from greater responsibilities and challenges. Just because TV shows have made it a trope that "desk jobs" are for losers doesn't make it believable, because the organization would fail if the best and brightest avoided the greater responsibilities that went along with the desk.

Or, Kirk was a failure as a flag officer. I don't think that was the intention, but maybe so.

Shepard was grounded for the entirety of the Gemini program because of Ménière's disease. When he was cured during the Apollo program he stepped back into the top spot and commanded Apollo 14. He also had not logged "a single star hour" in almost ten years.

OK, thanks. The situations are not comparable. Shepard was still in the same pool with other eligible astronauts. Being grounded for his ear condition wasn't held against him, and he had kept up with the program and worked very hard to get up to speed with Apollo, and made a better impression on his bosses than Gordon Cooper had. But he and Cooper were on basically the same level, it wasn't Shepard exerting influence from a much higher level for his own benefit.
 
Sure, but they didn't commit to that, they pick and choose. People say it's not like a real-world military, then they write/produce stories where people pull rank, complain about lack of promotion, get court martialed for not obeying orders, follow orders to certain death etc. Those situations carry with them certain implications about the larger system and hierarchy. I find the inconsistencies make it harder to suspend disbelief. If you do not, I have no problem with that.

I don't follow that all-or-nothing logic. Just because it isn't exactly like the modern military, that doesn't mean it has nothing in common with it. I mean, a giraffe has a lot in common with a leopard -- four legs, a head, a tail, spots, body hair, giving live birth, being warm-blooded -- but it also has a lot of major differences.

And of course there are going to be inconsistencies in a franchise consisting of nearly 800 distinct stories created by hundreds of different writers and directors. That's hard to avoid. I'm not saying I love it, but it would be unrealistic to expect perfect uniformity.


Yeah, but I don't buy it. One, when you are in the military, it is pretty much wired into your brain that you do what your superiors think is best for the organization.

When you're in the present-day military. Again, we can't assume Starfleet is exactly like that. It's as much a scientific organization as a defensive one, so naturally it would encourage independent thought in its members.


Two, real people just don't act that way.

Of course they don't. But these are fictional characters. Again, what alternative do you propose? How could they have continued telling action-adventure stories starring William Shatner, Leonard Nimoy, and the rest under the scenario where Kirk went back to a desk job and stayed there? You want to talk about reality -- the reality is that these were movies made for the entertainment of the audience, and Shatner was their primary star. That's the reality that everything else has to bend to.


People who are motivated (and competitive) enough to reach command of a ship don't shy away from greater responsibilities and challenges. Just because TV shows have made it a trope that "desk jobs" are for losers doesn't make it believable, because the organization would fail if the best and brightest avoided the greater responsibilities that went along with the desk.

On the other hand, it can be argued that there is no greater responsibility than starship command. TOS was based on things like the British Navy in the 19th century, when ship captains would be out of touch with their home bases and completely on their own, unable to call home for instructions, and thus would have the sole responsibility to make crucial diplomatic, military, or political decisions. We often saw in TOS how it would take days or weeks for Starfleet to receive Kirk's reports, so that the weight of the decisions fell solely on his shoulders. In "Balance of Terror," he had to make the choices that would decide whether or not a new war with the Romulans began, and Starfleet's approval of his plan didn't come through until after it was all over. So in that case and others like it, he had more responsibility than any admiral back home, because his choices actually shaped events, while his superiors back home could only try to deal with the consequences.
 
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