What era the U.S.S. Discovery NCC-1031 will be from?

[jamestyler]

It's not a matter of civility, it's just a quality they've acquired. Besides, I'm thinking more of Data and how silly he comes off saying shit, because it is so self consciously edgy.

That being said, I think there is cursing in Star Trek Beyond, and it barely registered. It was done in a far more natural manner, not for shock value.

I'm not keen on the quality of language thing. If its acceptable in period drama's, surely it's fine in the future.

But yeah, the Data stuff was really awkward. To me it's down to presentation as it's the geek trying to be cool stereotype-ish thing and came off kind of like being 13 and swearing in class more than a natural thing that fit in context.

Beyond and Generations had the same logic in one swearing scene, in terms or writing, but it came off a lot more naturally as it wasn't done with an immature snicker. Just.... done.

I can see it being used far more fluidly in Discovery. And as a contrast.... I find it annoyingly strange no one does it in things like Arrow. Understandable, but the niceties are really jarring considering the enviroment.

 

[jaime]

I'm not keen on the quality of language thing. If its acceptable in period drama's, surely it's fine in the future.

But yeah, the Data stuff was really awkward. To me it's down to presentation as it's the geek trying to be cool stereotype-ish thing and came off kind of like being 13 and swearing in class more than a natural thing that fit in context.

Beyond and Generations had the same logic in one swearing scene, in terms or writing, but it came off a lot more naturally as it wasn't done with an immature snicker. Just.... done.

I can see it being used far more fluidly in Discovery. And as a contrast.... I find it annoyingly strange no one does it in things like Arrow. Understandable, but the niceties are really jarring considering the enviroment.

Language changes over time. I can assure there is plenty of stuff that whilst fine in period dramas would be xtremely unacceptable in the present.
Star Trek is established as a period where swearing just doesn't happen anymore...hence the whole double dumb ass on you shtick in TVH.

Also...would be nice to watch it with my little one, like I watched Trek with my family. If it's turned into Torchwood, I can't do that...and it's less like its forebears in a negative way.

 

[MadMan1701A]

Also...would be nice to watch it with my little one, like I watched Trek with my family. If it's turned into Torchwood, I can't do that...and it's less like its forebears in a negative way.

Agreed... I hope it's still pretty family friendly. I'd hate to have to tell my son he couldn't watch, since he's already seen parts of all the other series!

-Ricky

 

[eyeresist]

It's not a matter of civility, it's just a quality they've acquired. Besides, I'm thinking more of Data and how silly he comes off saying shit, because it is so self consciously edgy.

That being said, I think there is cursing in Star Trek Beyond, and it barely registered. It was done in a far more natural manner, not for shock value.

I think it's just a matter of context, and what you're used to. If you've watched the TNG characters in 7 years of "family-viewing" TV, any realistic earthiness is going to stick out. NuTrek was more naturalistic in its acting, and also had more frenetic action, which tends to increase the use of verbal poopy.




Values have changed, and at least some people now realise that hearing "shit" on TV won't turn their kids into delinquents.

 

[jaime]

I think it's just a matter of context, and what you're used to. If you've watched the TNG characters in 7 years of "family-viewing" TV, any realistic earthiness is going to stick out. NuTrek was more naturalistic in its acting, and also had more frenetic action, which tends to increase the use of verbal poopy.




Values have changed, and at least some people now realise that hearing "shit" on TV won't turn their kids into delinquents.

Yes, I am not sure anyone ever thought hearing such words would turn us into marauding hordes rumbling across the post apocalyptic landscape we had wrought with rock and rap music.

On the other hand, you don't necessarily want to explain what the words mean to a kid under ten, and definitely don't want them offending strangers on the street or shops, triggering some nutter in the local supermarket, or upsetting other family members who might have different values. That might be more what people like me worry about.
In short...swearing in Trek would add nothing, but could lose it some audience...lucrative merchandise buying audience.
I spent my teenage years in the rougher areas of East London before it was gentrified by artists and hipsters (colloquially...Tossers. The indescribable joy of being mistaken for one is truly a pleasure...) and can therefore swear enough to make your average American not only blush, but also spontaneously combust (I am the first male in the family not to have tales of visiting the North American continent and causing offence somewhere. Not sure how I feel about that.) but that just means I know how alien it would be I n would be in Star Trek. And totally unnecessary.

The same goes for graphic sexual or violent content. Whilst it's actually a good fit for Trek in many ways, it would lose more than it would gain if it got too explicit...and there's other outlets for that, ones that my four old has no interest in, as opposed to the excitement that the prospect of a new Star Trek series has already created. He has already made the Discovery out of Lego.

 

[jaime]

http://gizmodo.com/the-science-of-how-and-why-we-swear-1785255715

Just started reading this and it inadvertently explains perfectly why there would be no swearing in the federation.

Religion is a private thing, and rarely mentioned, and would be respected as a choice...so that's a quarter of swear words out the window.

Sex is now totally devoid of shame, or hang ups, and a different attitude mostly prevails. Again, personal choice would be respected....so we are now up to half of the words being either irrelevant or culturally taboo more through pointlessness than shame. Not to mention it probably being a total pain in the bum for the universe translator.

Bodily functions, well, they exist obviously, but things are pretty sanitised, people don't even cut themselves shaving, and with diverse alien beings, which bodily functions are even relevant across federation society? This explains why Shit is all we ever hear, and rarely. Data saying it is particularly odd, because he theoretically doesn't.

That leaves us with derogatory terms for others, which again are culturally extinct so as to be unfamiliar, or are entirely new....which we do hear, with cardies for cardasians, though that's not exactly used as a derogatory term and more as a colloquialism, I have never heard it used as a directed insult. There are others, but I don't remember hearing them in the show, just in related media.

So....those colourful metaphors, or more specifically the lack thereof, are just another example of Treks accidental world building working in favour of its actual intended world building.

I end this by saying A Double Dumb Ass on You! Just because it's fun.

 

[eyeresist]

I didn't actually read the article but I know swearing is to do with the emotional power of taboo words. Swears express emotions normal words can't. And it's been scientifically shown that swearing helps one endure pain to a higher degree. If people in the future still have emotions, they will still have a need to swear.
Maybe certain words won't be swear words due to the social taboo fading away, but every society has words that are viscerally charged because they embody powerful concepts. So we could theorise swear words in Trek being to do with selfishness and violence - and prejudice, of course, because that's even more forbidden than it is nowadays.
But thankfully Trek has largely avoided made-up swears ("Drok!" "Frak!").
I don't buy that the lack of swearing in Trek is world building. If they are humans, they swear. The lack of swears is just due to (a) TV standards and practices, and (b) the silliness of all futuristic invented swear words.

 

[jaime]

I didn't actually read the article but I know swearing is to do with the emotional power of taboo words. Swears express emotions normal words can't. And it's been scientifically shown that swearing helps one endure pain to a higher degree. If people in the future still have emotions, they will still have a need to swear.
Maybe certain words won't be swear words due to the social taboo fading away, but every society has words that are viscerally charged because they embody powerful concepts. So we could theorise swear words in Trek being to do with selfishness and violence - and prejudice, of course, because that's even more forbidden than it is nowadays.
But thankfully Trek has largely avoided made-up swears ("Drok!" "Frak!").
I don't buy that the lack of swearing in Trek is world building. If they are humans, they swear. The lack of swears is just due to (a) TV standards and practices, and (b) the silliness of all futuristic invented swear words.

That's my point...it is because of the two things you mention, but as a happy accident, that fits perfectly with the intended world building. You don't want to offend a race similar to sentient dung beetles by saying 'shit' ..could cause a holy war when it turns out it's their religious centre. So after a few hundred years of space exploration, and contact with alien races, swearing becomes a defunct mode of speech. You can see the scale already even within basically the same language, across multiple cultures....there are words we use in Britain that are considered not as offensive as they would be in America. As a result of increased contact with American culture however, particularly on the Internet, you see that level of offensiveness being considered the default. The same is true on a generational level. Then there are words that simply didn't travel. Sod for instance. (I don't consider this a good thing...I would prefer it if it worked the other way, things becoming less offensive.) It leads to amusing scripts from Anglophile screenwriters, and even more amusing responses from the fan bases. Can you imagine that Loki scene, and the resulting people referring to themselves using it, if he had actually said 'you're a whiney c**t' ? Because to my ears that's what he said. Same with people across the pond not quite grasping the use of Wanker, and it's occasional use as a term of endearment between friends. People greeting people they have just met with 'you're such a wanker!' Like its a great compliment never ceases to amuse me.
Now imagine that on a galactic scale with races powerful enough to level your home planet and a universal translator that sometimes gets it wrong.

As to other scifi? I love those made up words. Defiance is great, but Farscape is king. I use some of those in conversation. Usually when the computer breaks. I would use the time units as well if more than about three people would have a clue what I was saying. Oddly, Klingon, Romulan and Vulcan never caught on for me. Well...Klingon does now because we need it for bedtime stories. Frak never caught on for me...partly because it's real world word is a thing, and mostly because I knew it from Doctor Who comics first. There was almost no greater outsider group in schools in the nineties than Doctor Who fans.

So...in Treks world, where the whole of humanity leans toward not causing offence, swearing makes no sense, and Spock and Kirk said as much on screen.

 

[Jedman67]

I WANT MORE GORRAM SWEARING!!

 

[jaime]

I WANT MORE GORRAM SWEARING!!

Because?

 

[Jedman67]

Because?

I like saying Gorram

 

[jaime]

I like saying Gorram

Wasn't he a Klingon chef?

 

[Go-Captain]

http://gizmodo.com/the-science-of-how-and-why-we-swear-1785255715

Just started reading this and it inadvertently explains perfectly why there would be no swearing in the federation.

Religion is a private thing, and rarely mentioned, and would be respected as a choice...so that's a quarter of swear words out the window.

Sex is now totally devoid of shame, or hang ups, and a different attitude mostly prevails. Again, personal choice would be respected....so we are now up to half of the words being either irrelevant or culturally taboo more through pointlessness than shame. Not to mention it probably being a total pain in the bum for the universe translator.

Bodily functions, well, they exist obviously, but things are pretty sanitised, people don't even cut themselves shaving, and with diverse alien beings, which bodily functions are even relevant across federation society? This explains why Shit is all we ever hear, and rarely. Data saying it is particularly odd, because he theoretically doesn't.

That leaves us with derogatory terms for others, which again are culturally extinct so as to be unfamiliar, or are entirely new....which we do hear, with cardies for cardasians, though that's not exactly used as a derogatory term and more as a colloquialism, I have never heard it used as a directed insult. There are others, but I don't remember hearing them in the show, just in related media.

So....those colourful metaphors, or more specifically the lack thereof, are just another example of Treks accidental world building working in favour of its actual intended world building.

I end this by saying A Double Dumb Ass on You! Just because it's fun.

That really is a good interview, also your use of Kirk's famous insult highlights the impression I have of Star Trek, Kirk doesn't know how to swear. It could be interpreted as him trying to fit in, but it always comes off to me as if he does not know how to do what he wants.

By TNG it is true they are not supposed to have body related hangup, no one poops in Starfleet, and religion seems dead by TNG, but I believe that does leave racial slurs. McCoy shows us there are plenty of species based things going, especially ENT shows us that as well at least with Archer and Shran. Even Worf shows us he has a racist sense of Klingonness. In VOY especially we see B'Elanna Torres was mocked for her Klingon heritage as a child. When the Doctor has a holographic family and Torres reprograms it so it is realistic, it turns out the undesirable subculture on Earth is Klingon based.

Given the above, the major form of swearing in the Federation should be species based. It also runs counter to their universal acceptance of the new and different, so it would have the power of taboo.

Outside of that I think anything like swearing would run more toward the descriptive, if that is possible. Over all, I think I might accept swearing which derives more from the future situation more than strait transplanted modern swearing. Then again, it might just sound tremendously stupid like shazbot, and frack.

 

[jaime]

That really is a good interview, also your use of Kirk's famous insult highlights the impression I have of Star Trek, Kirk doesn't know how to swear. It could be interpreted as him trying to fit in, but it always comes off to me as if he does not know how to do what he wants.

By TNG it is true they are not supposed to have body related hangup, no one poops in Starfleet, and religion seems dead by TNG, but I believe that does leave racial slurs. McCoy shows us there are plenty of species based things going, especially ENT shows us that as well at least with Archer and Shran. Even Worf shows us he has a racist sense of Klingonness. In VOY especially we see B'Elanna Torres was mocked for her Klingon heritage as a child. When the Doctor has a holographic family and Torres reprograms it so it is realistic, it turns out the undesirable subculture on Earth is Klingon based.

Given the above, the major form of swearing in the Federation should be species based. It also runs counter to their universal acceptance of the new and different, so it would have the power of taboo.

Outside of that I think anything like swearing would run more toward the descriptive, if that is possible. Over all, I think I might accept swearing which derives more from the future situation more than strait transplanted modern swearing. Then again, it might just sound tremendously stupid like shazbot, and frack.

And I think the thing about essentially racist swearing is that it's not likely to be used much by professional starfleet crew. You can hardly go out and meet new races if you have hang ups about the ones you already know. I think it's telling that it's really the only cursing we ever see in the TV iterations as well, though as I said, it's vague whether cardie is an insult or something more akin to scotch, Scots, or even jock (which seems to be in use both positively and negatively. In my family we refer to our scots heritage as being part jockanese, because it leads into plenty of humour around mine and my wife's interest in various bits of Japanese stuff. Jockanese sushi of course is deep fried in batter...)

 

[OpenMaw]

Wasn't he a Klingon chef?

Gorram, scourge of the hair pasta!

He baked with honor.

it's vague whether cardie is an insult or something more akin to scotch, Scots, or even jock

I think if it were, we would have heard O'brien use it at the Cardassians. Even when he's letting his real disdain show through in "The Wounded" he says "Cardassian" to their faces. Considering he said "Cardassian" like you would say "look, a__hole" also makes me think that "cardie" isn't a racial slur as such. Otherwise i'm pretty sure it would have been used that way.

 

[Go-Captain]

Gorram, scourge of the hair pasta!

He baked with honor.

I think if it were, we would have heard O'brien use it at the Cardassians. Even when he's letting his real disdain show through in "The Wounded" he says "Cardassian" to their faces. Considering he said "Cardassian" like you would say "look, a__hole" also makes me think that "cardie" isn't a racial slur as such. Otherwise i'm pretty sure it would have been used that way.

With less focus on making the show friendly for everyone, we might have seen O'Brien use Cardie pejoratively, rather than Cardassian pejoratively.

 

[Tim Walker]

Larry Niven had his own made up expletive, "Tanj". (There Aint No Justice).

 

[Kor]

The SW litverse had "stang," which always made me think of a Ford Mustang. I just couldn't take it seriously.

Kor

 

[Captain of the USS Averof]

"Frak off you nerf herders! You muggle meatbags are gonna be replaced with toasters and skinjobs real soon!"

Yeah, I can see the Discovery crew having real edgy conversations!

 

[jaime]

"Frak off you nerf herders! You muggle meatbags are gonna be replaced with toasters and skinjobs real soon!"

Yeah, I can see the Discovery crew having real edgy conversations!

I find muggle amusing. Largely because a lot of the fan base seem to have missed the point about how it's transitioning to be a really nasty word used by not nice people during the story. It starts as a functional word, then starts to show as a discriminatory term and by the end being related to one will get you killed...using it pejoratively is technically really unpleasant. Skin jobs is outright compared to racist terms the first time it's introduced....toasters is toasters, but ends up similar. So it's interesting how much these things get embraced by fan bases.
I will stick with frell, maybe kriff, with a side of shtako.