Haters of Star Trek: Discovery - wtf?

[The Wormhole]

While a post-Nemesis setting could be cool, it could run into licensing problems (with the Star Trek [2009] backstory) and still has the problem of contradictions with future events (like the time cops we meet in VOY and ENT).

I guarantee you, whatever else caused the decision to go pre-TOS era over post-Nemesis, the time cops from Voyager and Enterprise were not once a factor in the decision making at all.

Balance of Terror's cloaking device wasn't a throwaway line.

Calm down, Braga admitted they screwed up with the cloaking device and issued an apology to fandom. Let it go.

 

[locutus101]

I guarantee you, whatever else caused the decision to go pre-TOS era over post-Nemesis, the time cops from Voyager and Enterprise were not once a factor in the decision making at all.

Calm down, Braga admitted they screwed up with the cloaking device and issued an apology to fandom. Let it go.

They issued apologies to fandom? As early as that? Wow!

 

[Overgeeked]

People can't help it if they like or dislike something.

Yes, they can.

If they wanted something post-DS9/Voyager that is nothing to be ashamed of.

That's the trouble right there. They decided that they wanted a post-NEM series. They decided that's the way to go. And when it became clear that desire wasn't satisfied, they got pissy.

How do you help from disliking something without knowing more than a tiny shred of information on it? By not deciding the one and only way to do something. It's that setting up of an expectation and the subsequent disappointment of that expectation that's the heart of the problem.

I admit that would have been my preference but I've been surprised in the past when I have discovered I liked things that I didn't think I would simply because I gave it a chance. I'm willing to wait.

Right. So by dropping your pre-conceived notions and judging a work on its own merits you learn new things and can find new things to like. That's the trouble here. People deciding they hate something without knowing basically anything about it. Preconceived notions and inevitable disappointment.

 

[OpenMaw]

Not at the time, no. Even on the Enterprise DVD releases there are lot's of attempts to defend the creative choices they made.

They issued apologies to fandom? As early as that? Wow!

Not back then. Back then they were saying things to the effect of Trek fans basically being short-attention spanned idiots.

Braga, to his credit, later spoke out and apologized and tried to explain things.

Still, some of his ideas that were stamped out by Berman and higher execs were still kinda awful. ... Like NX-01 not leaving Earth dock until the end of the first season. The entire first season being about getting the ship ready. That somehow doesn't seem like it would work at all. There's a point where you bend the Trek formula too far and it snaps.

 

[CJCade]

I'm actually a little frustrated by this thread and so many of the comments throughout it slamming anyone who stated they disliked the idea of going pre-TOS with Discovery. I personally made the same comment and still stand by it. I stated, though, that doesn't equate to hating Discovery before it even comes out... just a dislike of the time period. Maybe a few have stated an outright hate, but most I've read felt the same as I. And look at the outright nastiness so many have shown in their comments to us. Sad.

 

[Overgeeked]

Not at the time, no. Even on the Enterprise DVD releases there are lot's of attempts to defend the creative choices they made.

Not back then. Back then they were saying things to the effect of Trek fans basically being short-attention spanned idiots.

Honest question. If a kid has his heart set on the latest model iPhone, but his parents get him the cheaper model from last year, and the kid smashes the thing in protest... is the child an ungrateful spoiled brat or are the parents assholes for getting the "wrong" model phone?

Chances are most people will side with the parents in that scenario. So it's quite funny how fandom seems to circle the wagons and side with the child time and again. Just see the threads of petitions to have the new series cancelled before it even airs. The bile, vitriol, and hate being spewed at the series without a single actor having been cast or a single minute of footage being shot.

Fandom has basically responded as the spoiled child in that example from the moment TNG was announced as a 80+ year jump into the future, again when the design of the Enterprise-D was revealed ("it's a fucking cruise ship"), and again when DS9 was announced as being set on a space station ("but they don't go anywhere, WTF?"), and again when VOY was announced to have a female captain ("but a girl?"), and again when the ENT ship design was revealed ("it's the akira-prise, lol"), and again when ENT was announced as a prequel ("but... but... continuity"), and again when the reboots were announced ("you can't recast the holy trinity... erm... the original cast"), and again when STID was revealed as a Khan movie, and again the moment when the Discovery ship design was revealed ("but it looks different"), and again when DSC's era was announced ("but... but... continuity")... it's almost as if fandom exists in a permanent state of whining and temper tantrum.

I'll watch the new series with delight because it's new Trek. Something we haven't really had since 2005. If I don't like the new series, I say so, but I'll be intellectually honest enough to judge it based on its own merits rather than some preconceived notion of what it should be.

 

[BillJ]

Most people probably thought getting the Prime timeline back meant going post-Nemesis.

 

[ConRefit79]

Can't say I hate it. But, they haven't sold me. Things were looking up, despite the fact they were going pay for view via their service only. The creative team involved sparked hope. But the ship sucked. Maybe it will change who knows. And now 10 years before TOS. Anyone notice that's where the films started? Not to mention all the canon hoops they must jump through.

I don't agree with a post nemesis setting. I think 3 series each with 7yr seasons set in the mid 24th century is enough. And beyond that, the people seem to distant to us. I think post TUC would be better. A period where the Federation and Klingons are working through a fragile peace process. Kind of like what we're going through with the former Soviet block for the last 20yrs. And you could have some religious zealots parking conflicts through out the Alpha quadrant.

 

[WebLurker]

Not sure that's really an option anymore. Firefly is not a special case: modern TV history is littered with genre shows that got cancelled within a season or two: Terra Nova, Alphas, Fast-Forward, Invasion, Surface, Threshold, Caprica, Limitless, Mercy Point, etc.

Okay.

Wonder why Firefly gets singled out then as the big example of the show that was unfairly canceled, then?

TNG was the first new Trek show in ages and had little or no competition, so we cut it some slack while it got its sea legs because it was pretty much the only game in town. But in these days of "peak tv," audiences can't be expected to wait three seasons for a show to "click." You kinda need to hit the ground running . ....

I can get the point that a TV show isn't going to be given much of a grace period to get its ducks in line, but I'm a little puzzled how TNG would be able to get away with it back in the day, since there would've been other shows competing for audiences.

Four seasons is more than most SF shows get, so ENTERPRISE can't really complain.

Fair enough. I don't follow prime time TV, so I don't really have a good idea how long an average show will run, just that ENT got cut short in comparison to it's predecessors and at the point where it seemed like it was just getting started.

I guess my thing is that A.) It seemed like the show got canceled when the mistakes were already fixed and B.)I never really understood why the show was still awful in the first place.

I guess the bright side is that ENT was given a chance to have closure, so it can be viewed as a complete entity, even if it feels like there was more story waiting to be told.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Wonder why Firefly gets singled out then as the big example of the show that was unfairly canceled, then?

It's fans are more vocal.

 

[fireproof78]

Okay.

Wonder why Firefly gets singled out then as the big example of the show that was unfairly canceled, then?



I can get the point that a TV show isn't going to be given much of a grace period to get its ducks in line, but I'm a little puzzled how TNG would be able to get away with it back in the day, since there would've been other shows competing for audiences.



Fair enough. I don't follow prime time TV, so I don't really have a good idea how long an average show will run, just that ENT got cut short in comparison to it's predecessors and at the point where it seemed like it was just getting started.

I guess my thing is that A.) It seemed like the show got canceled when the mistakes were already fixed and B.)I never really understood why the show was still awful in the first place.

I guess the bright side is that ENT was given a chance to have closure, so it can be viewed as a complete entity, even if it feels like there was more story waiting to be told.

Not fixed soon enough as well as the fact that the last episode was showed that the mistakes were not completely learned from. I'm not blaming Berman and Braga for it, but it feels like a lot of their ideas feel very stale, and trying to shoehorn in the TNG formula, rather than allowing the new crew to explore and grow on their own.

That's just me. ENT has been dissected to pieces and, while it isn't my favorite, I don't hate it either. It just could have been a whole lot better. And, I'm sorry, I'm more than a little annoyed that ENT got 4 seasons, Firefly got one, Invisible Man got 2, and various other shows that I liked got even less. So, ENT doesn't garner much sympathy from me, other than how cool the ships look and the uniforms.

 

[eyeresist]

... just a dislike of the time period. Maybe a few have stated an outright hate, but most I've read felt the same as I. And look at the outright nastiness so many have shown in their comments to us. Sad.

I think that "outright nastiness" is just in your head. Unless you have quotes?

"HATE"- why such a strong word? Are you trying to make people who vote "yes" look irrational?

Nobody forced you to click 'yes', did they?

Ent's season one and two were dull and uninspired plus the multiple faux pas like when Archer decides for some stupid reason to withhold a cure of a deadly disease from an entire planet. Who could be happy to see that?

Quality-wise watching ENT is like playing Russian roulette, but there were actually some great eps in the first two seasons.

What was that episode where Archer and company stole a warp drive part (or something like that) from a ship, and left the ship stranded in space? I remember the uproar from that episode back in the day. LOL

That was good. That was VOY done right.

 

[CorporalClegg]

Most people probably thought getting the Prime timeline back meant going post-Nemesis.

As far as I'm concerned this would be the only reason to go back to Prime. And it's not a very good one.

Frankly, I think this show would work better in Kelvin, for myriad reasons.

 

[Ensign_Redshirt]

You can only judge the quality of a product after you've tasted it. For all we know, Discovery could become the best Trek show ever made or it could be the worst one yet. We'll see in January. I'm certainly curious about it and anxious to see it myself.

 

[locutus101]

...That was good. That was VOY done right.

Actually, that was an episode of ENT.

 

[eyeresist]

Actually, that was an episode of ENT.

I know. My point was that, in the Xindi arc, ENT did VOY's concept better than VOY did. Serious damage to the ship. The crew stressing out. Having to break their own moral code in order to survive (admittedly they had more justification in that their mission was to save Earth). I just wish they'd had the nerve to kill off a major character toward the end.

 

[SpaceLama]

It always amazes me how Andromeda and Stargate Atlantis survived so long while Firefly and Crusade got 13 episodes (and sabotaged in Crusade's case).

 

[CorporalCaptain]

As far as I'm concerned this would be the only reason to go back to Prime. And it's not a very good one.

Frankly, I think this show would work better in Kelvin, for myriad reasons.

I have no idea, because I don't factually know the details of who owns exactly what parts of the IP in what venue, but it's been speculated by one or more posters on the board that the reason why the Kelvin Universe was not chosen is because of licensing issues. Posters have been speaking for years about how Star Trek licensing between CBS and Paramount works, but no one's yet been able to actually cite an authoritative source about it.

However, generally speaking, it would seem to me that both the simplest and the least financially involved approach is to stick to a premise based on IP from only a single rights holder, preferably one's own. So, if, hypothetically, use of Kelvin IP in the new show would require CBS to pay royalties to Paramount and/or Bad Robot, that strikes me as a plausible reason why they might choose not to do that.

Actually, that was an episode of ENT.

I think what he's saying is that that's what VOY should have done. (edit - confirmed by @eyeresist himself.)

 

[locutus101]

I know. My point was that, in the Xindi arc, ENT did VOY's concept better than VOY did. Serious damage to the ship. The crew stressing out. Having to break their own moral code in order to survive (admittedly they had more justification in that their mission was to save Earth). I just wish they'd had the nerve to kill off a major character toward the end.

That's what they hired major Hayes for.

 

[OpenMaw]

Honest question. If a kid has his heart set on the latest model iPhone, but his parents get him the cheaper model from last year, and the kid smashes the thing in protest... is the child an ungrateful spoiled brat or are the parents assholes for getting the "wrong" model phone?.

Er... This metaphor doesn't quite work in my view. Their audience isn't a bunch of children. Star Trek fans come from all walks of life, and a lot of fans had complaints.

Let's make one thing clear here, too. Braga admitted that TATV was motivated by pure ego on their part.

I'll watch the new series with delight because it's new Trek. Something we haven't really had since 2005. If I don't like the new series, I say so, but I'll be intellectually honest enough to judge it based on its own merits rather than some preconceived notion of what it should be.

Okay, and I will as well. I'm not against Discovery at all at this point, but I think you've committed a pretty bad intellectual sin there. You've basically broad-stroked anyone who raised those issues you listed as being a whiny child; as if the collective whole were all on the same unified page, they weren't. Trek has always had those who championed it regardless, those in the middle, and those vocally against just about anything ever done... While also separating yourself from that if you yourself end up having issues with the series. What might seem insignificant to some, might be a deal breaker to others.

The problem with B&B is they came off as militantly against anyone who was a fan of TOS. When I said they called Trek fans 12 year olds, it wasn't with regarding to Trek fans being vocal about stupid bullshit. It was directed at complaints that the show wasn't really living up to it's creative potential, that it seemed to be playing to the lowest common denominator with the decon-gel scenes, the semi-exploitative way that they talked about t'pols "pon-farr episode" ... Which raised eyebrows all over the place. That showed they weren't really interested in trying to do a little research. Watch some of TOS with a pad and paper and take some notes, and go... AH-hah! Here's a story opportunity. Here's where that might have come from... They had no interest in cultivating opportunities and actually using the prequel setting to their advantage.

I mean, to e totally fair, their were people out there, even one of my close friends, who were not going to be happy if Enterprise did not look like it was "Pre Cage" With a Daedalus type ship or something out of the Spaceflight Chronology. ...That was never going to happen. But those people persisted. For people like it, I just looked at the show and shrugged my shoulders, thinking... It's lit and shot, and produced just like Voyager was, and it could be so much bolder than it is, and they're missing golden moments all over the place. That's not me judging it by some lofty standard, that's just looking at what they were saying they wanted to do, and then seeing them just not do anything with it. Prime example, Berman kept saying it's a show about "firsts" right? Well... The first time they meet another alien species? The first time they're going to make contact? ... Archer half-asses a speech, and it has virtually no dramatic fan-fare. This should have been an Apollo-11-esque moment! With a plaque and a prepared statement, and... Something! All of the dramatic and narrative potential was utterly wasted... Alas, what a shame. ... And so that was the general sentiment of fans at the time.

The reason Enterprise is the way it is at times is not just because they were worn out, but because Berman in particular wanted Trek to be his which is fine, fair enough... So he ignored TOS a lot of the time. As Doug Drexler pointed out, the "Akiraprise" stuff is not unfounded. They wanted to use the Akira. Not "use that as inspiration." No. They wanted to dust off the CGI model of the Akira and just use that. For a prequel show. Tell me that's not completely lazy. That should not have even been a discussion...! And thank goodness Mr. Drexler pushed back and actually made something out of the NX-01. I'm not a fan of the NX-01, for a lot of reasons, but I will give credit to Doug for really trying to buff out something that, when you look closely, has a lot of details on it that make it the precursor to what would come later.

Putting all the noise to the side though, I think the one thing that anyone who feels uneasy about this being another prequel needs to strongly consider is... It is now a completely different creative environment from 2001-2005. This is a new team, with some old guard folks who haven't touched Trek in years, with a new idea of what Trek will be going forward. We have no idea what awaits. ...But it will not be the same creative atmosphere of old. For better, or worse.