Major Hayes rank

[apollo1984]

OK so this has been bugging me for a few days now since

Spoiler

someone mentioned the MACO's reference in the new film.

Basically it's the fact that the MACO's CO is a Major, now everything I have looked up last night (between real military and Enterprise references) indicate that during the Xindi mission there were 36 MACO's aboard, usually the CO of a unit that size is a 1st LT at most and that Majors are responsible for much larger units I know that it was a important mission but he would not have been the usual CO in that case (again not really referenced either).

Was there a reason that this units only officer was such a high rank? was there any in universe reason that I missed I know there could not be a 2nd officer since he names a NCO to take over in the penultimate episode. Was it done just so that Hayes held a higher rank than reed to cause tension, did they just get it wrong (ranks and trek can be horrible sometimes) or am I just missing something?

 

[Timo]

Supposedly, various special forces today do place a Major in command of a company, and special forces companies tend to be small today and probably will get even smaller in the future. The 30-40 people we saw would be such a company, perhaps minus a few platoons or "teams".

The strange thing here isn't Hayes' rank, it's the multitude of Corporals and the mention of just a single Sergeant (who was later ignored when Hayes was naming a successor for himself). Where are the team leaders, supposedly Captains or at least Lieutenants? Even if Hayes only took two teams with him (or the company never had more than that), there should be two officers there for those. Or at the very least two Sergeants of some sort!

Of course, special forces might be special: the Captains or Lieutenants might dress identically to their troops for understandable reasons of obfuscation, and discourage all mention of their rank.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[apollo1984]

So if I get this right, Hayes might have been in charge of the whole company while the 36 MACO's on enterprise might have been a sub section of that company and that's why Hayes was aboard. If that is true than from what I have read to try to clear it up in my mind you are right about the make up of the rest, there should have been at least 1 lt (the units usual CO) plus a multitude of Sergeants as squad leaders.

I wonder if things like this are done for 'creative reasons' or whether writers simply don't understand military stuff, I know I don't (hence the question) yet military shows I see on TV all have very different squad make ups to each other.

 

[Timo]

It would seem a good bet that immediate future armies should have much the same unit hierarchy as today (because the various unit levels have specific tasks) but each level would feature much, much fewer people (for reducing salaries more than for reducing casualties). All this serves right in the hands of scifi TV shows which can't afford many actors but do wish to retain close connections to today's world.

Should the job of commanding a company be given to a Lieutenant if it turns out the company only has 26 people (and loads of drones, say) fifty years from now? The tactical responsibilities would still be the same, so a solider with the training and service years of a Major or a Lieutenant Colonel might still be perfectly in order...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[SITZKRIEG!]

As was said above, the MACOs physically on the enterprise don't necessarily incorporate everyone he had under his command but rather as the Admiral told Archer the best of the best. It's what he could likely fit on the Enterprise and feasibly bring commanded by their most experienced still on the front lines commander. Just for reference, in modern military terms, a marine major (the MACO equivalent) is the same rank as a LtCmdr in the Navy (the Starfleet equivalent) so he wasn't even in the top 3 serving on the ship (Archer, T'Pol, Tucker). Archer was a Captain and two full ranks above Major Hayes (the equivalent of a Colonel) and he commanded "only" 85. The inclusion of a major has more to do with the importance of the mission IMO.

 

[Jedi_Master]

Science fiction writers, particularly Trek writers aren't all that concerned with keeping the various ranks of their characters in a logical order.

 

[apollo1984]

Thanks it makes sense now. Honestly I don't know why it bothered me so much.

 

[Tenacity]

I don't know if they still do this, but the old days if a captain (marine/army) came aboard a naval vessel, he would be addressed as "major" so there would be no confusion as to who the ship's captain actually was.

So could Hayes rank have been that of captain?

My favored explaination is that Hayes was in command of such a small unit solely because of the seriousness of the mission. Ordinarily a unit of that size would have been under the command of a lieutenant.

 

[Nerys Myk]

I don't know if they still do this, but the old days if a captain (marine/army) came aboard a naval vessel, he would be addressed as "major" so there would be no confusion as to who the ship's captain actually was.

So could Hayes rank have been that of captain?

My favored explaination is that Hayes was in command of such a small unit solely because of the seriousness of the mission. Ordinarily a unit of that size would have been under the command of a lieutenant.

IIRC, his rank insignia contained a gold leaf.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I don't know if they still do this, but the old days if a captain (marine/army) came aboard a naval vessel, he would be addressed as "major" so there would be no confusion as to who the ship's captain actually was.

They don't do that anymore. Nowadays a ship's commanding officer is usually called "Skipper" so even if there is a Marine or Army captain on board, nobody will have any doubt as to who's what.

So could Hayes rank have been that of captain?

No, his uniform showed the gold starburst of a Major rank. The same insignia that real life Majors wear.

As for why Hayes was a Major to begin with: Most likely because it sounds different. Everybody knows Starfleet is a navy, so the writers probably wanted a rank that sounded definitely non-naval. (I suppose Steven Culp himself could have asked for the rank, but that's less likely.)

 

[Nerys Myk]

They don't do that anymore. Nowadays a ship's commanding officer is usually called "Skipper" so even if there is a Marine or Army captain on board, nobody will have any doubt as to who's what.



No, his uniform showed the gold starburst of a Major rank. The same insignia that real life Majors wear.

As for why Hayes was a Major to begin with: Most likely because it sounds different. Everybody knows Starfleet is a navy, so the writers probably wanted a rank that sounded definitely non-naval. (I suppose Steven Culp himself could have asked for the rank, but that's less likely.)

It's a leaf!!!!!!

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ Much apologizings, you're right. I just checked on Wiki and the real insignia does have a little stem on it, suggesting leafocity. I never knew this until today.

Although you should have said that like Vreenak: It's a LEEEEEEEEAAFFF!!!!

 

[eyeresist]

everything I have looked up last night (between real military and Enterprise references) indicate that during the Xindi mission there were 36 MACO's aboard, usually the CO of a unit that size is a 1st LT at most and that Majors are responsible for much larger units I know that it was a important mission but he would not have been the usual CO in that case (again not really referenced either).

Was there a reason that this units only officer was such a high rank?

Interesting question.
I think the importance of the mission required a commissioned officer, regardless of the unit size.
The designation of ranks below him seems to be an issue the writers never really thought about.

IIRC, his rank insignia contained a gold leaf.

Except Hayes is not in the US military.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Interesting question.
I think the importance of the mission required a commissioned officer, regardless of the unit size.
The designation of ranks below him seems to be an issue the writers never really thought about.


Except Hayes is not in the US military.

True, but they used American style rank insignia for the MACOs.

 

[The Wormhole]

I don't know if they still do this, but the old days if a captain (marine/army) came aboard a naval vessel, he would be addressed as "major" so there would be no confusion as to who the ship's captain actually was.

That's definitely not done anymore. These days its common for an aircraft carrier to have multiple officers ranked Captain other than the CO.

Except Hayes is not in the US military.

No? He did train at West Point, AKA the United States Military Academy.

 

[Willow]

Thanks it makes sense now. Honestly I don't know why it bothered me so much.

It bothered me too! But I buy that the most likely explanation is one that was mentioned here...that the unit was "the best of the best" and were placed under the command of a much higher ranking officer because of the importance of the mission (saving Earth).

And perhaps Hayes himself is the "best of the best " of the combat officers - he would presumably have more experience than lieutenants and captains.

It also could be that they chose to make him a Major to cause conflict with Reed, as Hayes would otherwise be superior in rank, though the command structure for the mission aboard Enterprise required Hayes to report to Reed.

It did throw me when he named Corporal Mackenzie as his replacement- bypassing Sergeant Kemper (perhaps others). But, again, the nature of the mission may have necessitated the use of personnel based on strengths and experiences rather than any traditional "rank" structure.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

It did throw me when he named Corporal Mackenzie as his replacement- bypassing Sergeant Kemper (perhaps others). But, again, the nature of the mission may have necessitated the use of personnel based on strengths and experiences rather than any traditional "rank" structure.

Although TrekLit has Mackenzie (eventually promoted to MSGT) be 'in command' of the MACOs until the arrival of Major (later Lieutenant Commander) Kimura, my reading of Hayes suggesting Mackenzie was (mostly) as Reed's advisor on MACO personnel and tactics (because she 'knows the squad (better than Kemper?)) with the notion that Reed would be the O-i-C for both the Armory and MACO teams until a replacement officer could be provided.

Does that make any sense?

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Perhaps they were still holding on to the idea that ENT would make it to Season 5, and Shran could join the crew as MACO leader. (Which is what he probably would have been.)

 

[Timo]

The language used by Hayes on his deathbed was too vague to establish that he'd have wanted McKenzie to succeed him. It's just that Reed counters the words with "no more of that talk", as if believing that this was Hayes' last will and testament. Which it of course was, but it need not have the content Reed thought it might have.

And in actual military terms, Hayes said McKenzie would be good for the "team", whereas the 30-40 -strong MACO force aboard would certainly consist of multiple "teams" in US Special Forces language. Indeed, there's no "the" team in the episodes, just "a" team that consists of a subset of the MACO force - one such team is actually called to action in the very next scene.

Perhaps Hayes was telling Archer to field-promote McKenzie to Sergeant to lead the C Team which had just lost its Sergeant as far as Hayes knew (he couldn't know Sergeant Kemper would actually make a full recovery)?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[The Mighty Monkey of Mim]

It did throw me when he named Corporal Mackenzie as his replacement- bypassing Sergeant Kemper (perhaps others).

Although TrekLit has Mackenzie (eventually promoted to MSGT) be 'in command' of the MACOs until the arrival of Major (later Lieutenant Commander) Kimura, my reading of Hayes suggesting Mackenzie was (mostly) as Reed's advisor on MACO personnel and tactics (because she 'knows the squad (better than Kemper?)) with the notion that Reed would be the O-i-C for both the Armory and MACO teams until a replacement officer could be provided.

Does that make any sense?

Yes, that's it exactly. Hayes says nothing about putting her in command or in charge. He tells Reed to "use" and "rely on" McKenzie because "she knows the team" and that's all. Reed himself is commanding MACOs in the next episode.