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Spoilers STAR TREK BEYOND

[complaint about rank advancement]
I much prefer making an intelligent choice based upon merit, talent and ability rather than a systematic, oppressive, and unimaginative one that forces singularity qualified individuals to mark time waiting for seniority. What a waste of potential. Conversely, if Kirk feels his best potential is as captain, he should also not be forced up the ranks to some level of incompetence if captain is the best choice.
 
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Starfleet has never actually claimed this, and it's pretty obvious that they DON'T. To begin with, the fact that Starfleet ORIGINATED from a non-military NASA-like organization in the first place and has no actual lineage to any navy anywhere, let alone the U.S. or British navies they have a tendency to imitate. So we don't actually know what it means to be an Admiral in Starfleet; it comes with rank, obviously, and probably a higher paycheck and the shifting of responsibilities from field work to desk job; it could, on the other hand, be an ELECTED position, and Kirk would only have gotten the job because nobody was running against him (Commodore Paris didn't want the job for some reason?)


Peter Principle: Officers continue to be promoted until they reach their level of incompetence, at which point they cease to be promoted because they are no longer capable of doing meaningful work.

I've always felt that Starfleet doesn't actually promote officers purely based on merit or experience, but that officers have to APPLY for promotion and have to actually prove they are qualified for their new position, like interviewing for a new job. This would explain 1) Why Harry Kim never got promoted (he simply didn't want to) and 2) why Spock was never given a command of his own (never applied for the position, and only promoted to "Captain" because it was required for his teaching position at the academy).

There are some holes in that theory of course, not least of which having to do with rank scale being tied with pay (like Morrow promoting Scotty to Captain is probably just his way of giving him a huge payraise) but it neatly solves the problem of "Hey, you're an excellent ace pilot, so now we're putting you in command of an aircraft carrier, with responsibilities that are totally alien to your skill set, because you're so awesome! Congratulations!"


Applying for a position and getting it are two different things. A paramedic with 20 years experience in a deep space colony could probably get the job faster than a 24 year old fresh out of med school who hasn't even finished his residency.

That's why I'm thinking it is probably based on an individualized assessment of aptitude, which Kirk would have to prove in order to take the position. He's obviously smart enough, arguably experienced enough, so nothing's stopping him from applying for the job. The only thing that would stop him from GETTING it is if someone more qualified applied for it, and it seems like the only person who fits the bill is Commodore Paris, who for whatever reason doesn't WANT the job.

I am sorry but this convoluted explanation makes about as much sense as if someone came up with the theory that JFK actual shot himself!

1) Admirals are always old and they're the ones giving orders to everyone else, there's never have been an exception to that rule up until the stupid line in beyond, beyond belief in that case I should say.

2) If kim wasn't promoted for all that time it wasn't for lack trying. In fact his being assigned to Voyager as a very young ensign was likely the worst career move in star fleet history. Compared it to Nog's meteoric career for example!

To name a few.
 
I agree, i was shocked when I heard of that vice admiral bullshit! It's ridiculous. You can only get to that rank after many years in star fleet, That Kirk would even consider getting from captain to vice admiral in less than a couple of decades, is insane.

Kirk jumped from Captain to Rear Admiral before Star Trek: The Motion Picture. Bypassing Fleet Captain and Commodore.
 
1) Admirals are always old and they're the ones giving orders to everyone else
Not always. You forget that both Admiral Nechayev AND Admiral Janeway were both younger than Jean Luc Picard at the time they outranked him. And going by their real world ages, Vice Admiral Leyton is only 7 years older than Captain Sisko, his former second in command.

CEOs and upper managers tend to be older too, but it's not always the case. Again, if someone qualified wants the job and no one else is going for it, or if he manages to DO the job that everyone else fails to do (or gets killed TRYING to do, in Kirk's case) he gets the job and keeps it.

2) If kim wasn't promoted for all that time it wasn't for lack trying.
Are you sure? Because apart from his ops position he seems to have no other transferrable skills and shows little or no ambition even in the time travel/alternate reality Voyager stories.

The closest he gets to even ATTEMPTING promotion is when he takes command of the Nightingale, and throughout that incident appears so out of his depth that he probably did a little happy dance when he finally got back to his ops console.

And then there's Scotty, running the engine room of the Enterprise for over 30 years without ever getting a command of his own.

Basically: Starfleet doesn't use a traditional naval rank structure or promotion conventions and never really did. They appear to be structured more like a corporation or a civilian police department, with the rank titles being primarily related to pay grade and a localized hierarchical command structure.
 
Kirk jumped from Captain to Rear Admiral before Star Trek: The Motion Picture. Bypassing Fleet Captain and Commodore.

True, but at least there was a gap of quite a few years (between the end of TOS and the beginning of TMP) that we know nothing about. Here only THREE years had passed. That's nothing!

Imagine, three years a captain and then skip three ranks! Next thing we know, they'll have baby admirals!
 
True, but at least there was a gap of quite a few years (between the end of TOS and the beginning of TMP) that we know nothing about. Here only THREE years had passed. That's nothing!

Imagine, three years a captain and then skip three ranks! Next thing we know, they'll have baby admirals!

Its "Star Trek", I've learned to roll with it. It has never made sense in a military context beyond the very basic basics. Spock stole the Enterprise, and went to the death planet and nothing happened. Sisko poisoned a planet and made it uninhabitable for the people living on it, and nothing happened. Picard was assimilated by the Borg and was used to destroy 39 Starfleet ships, and two weeks later he was back in the captain's chair like nothing happened.

Kirk has consistently proven his leadership ability in the Abramsverse. Why wouldn't Starfleet want to use that resource as effectively as possible?
 
True, but at least there was a gap of quite a few years (between the end of TOS and the beginning of TMP) that we know nothing about. Here only THREE years had passed. That's nothing!

Imagine, three years a captain and then skip three ranks! Next thing we know, they'll have baby admirals!
Given the more meritocracy based Starfleet system this is not as bad as it often is made out to be.

Its "Star Trek", I've learned to roll with it. It has never made sense in a military context beyond the very basic basics. Spock stole the Enterprise, and went to the death planet and nothing happened. Sisko poisoned a planet and made it uninhabitable for the people living on it, and nothing happened. Picard was assimilated by the Borg and was used to destroy 39 Starfleet ships, and two weeks later he was back in the captain's chair like nothing happened.

Kirk has consistently proven his leadership ability in the Abramsverse. Why wouldn't Starfleet want to use that resource as effectively as possible?
Also, this.
 
Kirk jumped from Captain to Rear Admiral before Star Trek: The Motion Picture. Bypassing Fleet Captain and Commodore.

I've always attributed that to him bringing the Enterprise home after a successful five-year mission, and as legend has it, the only one to return.
 
I've always attributed that to him bringing the Enterprise home after a successful five-year mission, and as legend has it, the only one to return.

We don't even know if any other ships were ever given "five year missions". I tend to think the promotion was a punishment for all the times bucked authority, creatively interpreted the Prime Directive, the massive security lapses on his watch as Captain and number of security personnel killed.

Kirk had mad skills, but he also needed to be supervised. :lol:
 
We don't even know if any other ships were ever given "five year missions". I tend to think the promotion was a punishment for all the times bucked authority, creatively interpreted the Prime Directive, the massive security lapses on his watch as Captain and number of security personnel killed.

Kirk had mad skills, but he also needed to be supervised. :lol:

So for all the authority he ignored, make him an authority figure!
 
Reminds me of a joke a commentator once made from "The Omega Glory"

Kirk (episode audio): It seems impossible. A star captain's most solemn oath is that he will give his life, even his entire crew, rather than violate the Prime Directive.

Spock (commentator's voice): But, Captain, you violate it all the time.

Kirk (commentator's voice): Well of course. I just assumed everyone else took it seriously.
 
The only thing that would stop him from GETTING it is if someone more qualified applied for it, and it seems like the only person who fits the bill is Commodore Paris, who for whatever reason doesn't WANT the job.
I had the sense the position was to be Paris' second in command, of course that only makes things more confusing.

Of course, all of the scenes involving Paris were filmed in reshoots, so it's possible that Kirk's original storyline was different, and was revised to include the "vice admiral" stuff, yet the filmmakers had overlooked that they called Paris a commodore in later scenes (I don't think Kirk ever addressed her by title, he just called her "Ma'am").
 
We don't even know if any other ships were ever given "five year missions".
I assumed from the beginning that five years constituted a standard tour of duty, and that all starships of that class had identical or comparable assignments - just in different sectors. It's never seemed likely to me that only the Enterprise crew would be given a Capitalized (cue angelic chorus) ♫ Five-Year Mission™ ♪.
 
I assumed from the beginning that five years constituted a standard tour of duty, and that all starships of that class had identical or comparable assignments - just in different sectors. It's never seemed likely to me that only the Enterprise crew would be given a Capitalized (cue angelic chorus) ♫ Five-Year Mission™ ♪.

It would just seem odd to have your capital ships on deep space assignment, when there are threats to be dealt with at home.
 
It would just seem odd to have your capital ships on deep space assignment, when there are threats to be dealt with at home.

Apparently, wherever they are (with the notable exception of Voyager) they always manage to get back in a day or two, when a critical situation presents itself.
 
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