• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

corbomite < WNMHGB

drew

Lieutenant
Red Shirt
spoilers, obv. why does everyone love the corbomite maneuver more? the premise of Where No Man Has Gone Before is way better than, "run into hostile rubik's cube in space, talk to hostile owner of rubik's cube, get towed by hostile alien, break free from the tow, go back and try to help hostile alien, OH he wasn't hostile at all - he was "just testing them." what?

who threatens to kill an entire ship's worth of ppl and then feigns weakness, NOT expecting to be killed on the spot? silly. "oh that poor thing, his life support's run out! we'd better help him!" the dramatic music whenever the cube showed up was hilarious though and the dialogue between kirk and mccoy was some of the greatest. "you could see the alarm lights flashing from there, mccoy. why didn't you tell me?" "finally finished a physical on you, didn't I? what am I, a doctor or a moon shuttle conductor? if I jumped every time a light came on around here, I'd end up talking to myself..." <- mostly to himself, lol, perfect.

but not on par with WNMHGB. pretty much everything said leading up to the battle at kirk's grave (pray to me... pray you die easily! do you like what you see, absolute power corrupting absolutely?). the talks between gary and dehner (my love has wings, slender feathered things...). the decision making convos that are basically kirk's duty vs his friendship. that echoing voice itself... however, spock's claim that kirk won b/c he played "illogically" is ridiculous, why wouldn't you make a move that wins the game? it basically just makes spock look bullheaded, like he can't see when he's wrong or admit to mistakes.

the character that kirk shows by being patient with gary though, the sacrificial last words b4 he leaves to try to kill gary - "if I'm not back in 12 hours, get as far away from here as you can at max warp, this entire planet to be subjected to a lethal concentration of neutron radiation." and then after it was over and he added gary's death to the ship's logs, he had it noted that gary died in performance of his duty b/c "he didn't ask for what happened to him." way stronger character development than in corbomite maneuver. kind of pointless to have just flown through the weird energy field that caused the problem in the first place, but w/e, still better plot. better dialogue. no mccoy, but still better.

WNMHGB > the cage > corbomite maneuver > mudd's women. as far as the first 4 eps anyway. mudd's women has good dialogue too though, plenty of funny moments, decent themes, and great social commentary. there's even a moral to it. not bad at all. my whole original point with this though is that CM is overrated as hell. not among S1's best. the "bluff" was obviously desperate and awful, and apparently not even necessary. it's like the writers were going one way with it but then didn't know how to proceed so they just veered off course to balok. all of the suspense is invalidated which causes repeat viewings to suffer, as the suspense was such a huge part....
 
Who threatens to kill an entire ship's worth of ppl and then feigns weakness, NOT expecting to be killed on the spot?

Or at the very least, a sensible "mark" would just get away fast. As Geordi would say, "Keep the cheese; I just want out of the trap."

Balok's little ship must have been more powerful than he was letting on. If the Enterprise had powered weapons, Balok would have raised his superior shields in which he had limitless confidence. He was learning about an alien's behavior. He was looking for a degree of compassion from victors that is historically uncommon, but that post-WW II Americans were very proud to think of their country as having demonstrated in the occupations of Japan and Germany. And Balok was kind of a jerk.

...Spock's claim that Kirk won b/c he played "illogically" is ridiculous, why wouldn't you make a move that wins the game? It basically just makes Spock look bullheaded, like he can't see when he's wrong or admit to mistakes.

Get it? Spock was making a self-deprecating joke, using irony to chide himself for misreading Kirk's chess strategy and for being (jokingly) too proud to admit it. It was a good line.
 
I personally liked the Corbomite episode (just watched it last night). While it was fairly simple and the ending was kind of anti-climactic, you do see somewhat more of a human side to the crew when one snaps from stress and being overworked and then being threatened. The idea that someone could bluff like Kirk made it amusing. Just my opinion, even if not much of one. :)
 
Eh, I don't see the point in arguing opinions, since it's all personal preference. Both episodes are fantastic and both have their flaws. WNMHGB has the whole thing about entering the barrier when it looked like they could have gone around it, and Kirk getting into a prolonged fistfight with Mitchell when he should have grabbed a huge rock and brained him as soon as his eyes returned to normal. However, they can be rationalized easily enough to soothe the minds of those who wish to.

The only thing I really strongly disagree with is:
the dramatic music whenever the cube showed up was hilarious though

Not really. It was very effective. It's called a "theme." Like the fanfare used when we see the Enterprise. This music is very highly regarded.
 
who threatens to kill an entire ship's worth of ppl and then feigns weakness, NOT expecting to be killed on the spot?

Do you know how many dead Klingons asked that same question? :lol:


Well, Zap beat me to it.

I say Balok's little ship was the ship and that big huge thing they thought they were facing the whole time was a combination of holograms and false mass reading generated by his ship. Just like he felt like he needed a bigger, maybe scarier (Clint Howard was plenty scary at any age) image, he needed a bigger, more powerful appearing ship. Also, note that no one had any problem breathing when they beamed over, his life support wasn't really failing, it was just part of the test.

The worst part of The Corbomite Maneuver, IMO this is the worst part of Star Trek itself, is that the First Federation seems very interesting and is never heard from or mention again. Like, poof! not here any more. Maybe there were diplomats and ambassadors and treaties that never affected the Enterprise herself, but it seemed like it was such a big deal to meet another Federation but not ever see anything of it. I realize that's a product of it's time and a lot of shows didn't follow on each other but I'd have like to seen some ramifications of the developments that occur in the episodes.

They discover a planet that heals all injuries and revitalizes people, never mentioned or used again.
They discover a way to give everyone telekinetic superpowers, never mentioned or used again.
They discover 4 different races of super powerful beings, never mentioned or seen again.
They discover a huge library of medical texts that cure tons of diseases, never mentioned or used again.
They discover a way to instantaneously though temporarily train people with all kinds of advanced scientific and medical skils, never mentioned or used again.
They discover a planet full of many thousands of androids, never mentioned or used again.
They discover a planet with super advanced minds that want to build super advanced androids and actually make one, never mentioned or used again.

And I really could go on. But I think I've made the point.
 
Last edited:
It was very effective. It's called a "theme." Like the fanfare used when we see the Enterprise. This music is very highly regarded.

Corbomite's score is tremendous. I liked the Varese re-recording a lot, which was a lucky thing because the year-2000 CD release of the original soundtrack had terrible sound quality.

Now with the LLL Soundtrack Collection, both versions have good sound and the original performance really gets to strut its stuff.
 
Over several decades, I've never seen a published list or general fan opinion raking TCM over WNMHGB. The second pilot is usually rated as one of the greatest episodes of the franchise.
the consensus on this very forum has CM ranked higher than WNMHGB:

http://www.trekbbs.com/threads/season-1-as-ranked-by-the-tos-forum.259444/

at least 10% of the time someone names a solitary ep of TOS, it seems to be corbomite maneuver. the only ones I believe to be cherry picked more often (b/c they're good, eps like spock's brain don't count) would be TCOTEOF, doomsday machine, and balance of terror.

Get it? Spock was making a self-deprecating joke, using irony to chide himself for misreading Kirk's chess strategy and for being (jokingly) too proud to admit it. It was a good line.
I never considered that spock wasn't 100% serious. it's not like him to joke but I'll have to keep this in mind when I have problems with dialogue in the future. I'm not completely sold on it but I want to believe. I thought the writers just didn't understand the game or strategy in general really and we're suppose to take it at face value, like it's a fact that kirk won b/c he played illogically. especially as this is setting up spock's character, we don't even know him yet - these are his first lines. for him to be meaning something he isn't saying, and not meaning what he's saying, is a hard pill to swallow. I don't necessarily mean to say that the writers are dumb, just lazy sometimes: "hmm, how to introduce a character as an emotionless intellectual who only thinks with logic? hmm, he could be playing chess... ah screw it, give him some cocky lines that demonstrate how he was thinking ahead. wait, upon second thought, that was actually some very bad logic on his part - he couldn't even see one move ahead to his own loss? ah, w/e, the audience will never think too much about it... we'll just make the chess board way more complicated to compensate - yeah! that's a great idea actually, 3d chess...."

I assumed the writers use generally less than great logic themselves (the whole ESP thing IS nonsense after all, attempting to save balok when all they know is that he has captured and threatened to kill them makes no sense, etc) and just came up with the idea for a very rational, intelligent character that they're not really smart enough to write lines for to get that across. sorry if this ruffles any feathers, it's just how I feel.
 
It was very effective. It's called a "theme." Like the fanfare used when we see the Enterprise. This music is very highly regarded.
Corbomite's score is tremendous. I liked the Varese re-recording a lot, which was a lucky thing because the year-2000 CD release of the original soundtrack had terrible sound quality.

Now with the LLL Soundtrack Collection, both versions have good sound and the original performance really gets to strut its stuff.
....it's the fact that it's such a grand, epic theme... for a spinning disco cube in space. every time the cube is shown on their monitor, this music is immediately played, evoking suspense and terror, impending doom. that's absolutely HILARIOUS. I laugh out loud every single time. "IT'S GETTING CLOSER!" "50 meters..." "radiation levels beyond the tolerance level!" "FIRE!"
 
the whole ESP thing IS nonsense after all

In those years, there was increased academic research in this area. So WNMHGB just extrapolated from the trend of that time. It's about as scientific of a concept as luck being a quantifiable genetic trait in Larry Niven's "Known Space" novels. Even the best speculative fiction often features oddball ideas.

Similarly, it probably seemed quite cutting-edge to have sociologists involved in "The Return of the Archons," as sociology had become a buzzword and it was common for government and industry to use sociological research.

Kor
 
The theme of "Where No Man Has Gone Before" is vastly more epic than "The Corbomite Maneuver." It really deals with a fundamental aspect of humanity. But, on the other hand "The Corbomite Maneuver" has the turtleneck uniforms.


the whole ESP thing IS nonsense after all

Or IS it?
 
The theme of "Where No Man Has Gone Before" is vastly more epic than "The Corbomite Maneuver." It really deals with a fundamental aspect of humanity. But, on the other hand "The Corbomite Maneuver" has the turtleneck uniforms.
WNMHGB is the one with the turtleneck uniforms actually. I could swear it anyway...

now you have me doubting myself somehow.
 
to be real though, why are the uniforms so often a topic of discussion? I don't think I'd enjoy it significantly less if they were all naked. hey, there's an idea. having blacks, asians, and gays aboard isn't cutting edge any more. is it time to open the mind to the nudists? lol, j/k, but on a serious note, what would the equivalent today be, of having blacks, women, and asians in the control room? trannies? how would you feel if bruce jenner was in STD as a trans yeoman? I don't think I'd be happy about it actually, does that make me the 21st century equivalent of those bigots of the 60's who didn't like to see blacks on board? this should probably be a new topic.
 
I just realized that my previous post could be taken the wrong way... all I meant was that trannies are commonly scorned today as bigots of the 60's did members of other races. I wasn't trying to say that transgender = different race (offensive to trannies?) or that different races are like trannies (offensive to nonwhites? ah, only really if you consider trannies below anybody else in the first place anyway I suppose)
 
The uniform design in TCM were still evolving. Indeed one could argue they didn't reach a finalized design until season three with the use of better fabric, which they shoukd have used from the beginning.

I like TCM and WNMHGB equally. They are not only each good in of themselves, but they each well represent what TOS was intended to be.

And unlike later series TOS hit the ground running. There were things yet to be fleshed out and nailed down, but the overall execution was solid right from the beginning.
 
yeah that's interesting how well they worked together, it feels like mccoy and kirk had known each other forever in CM already, for example. mccoy is probably the best acted character in any ST related thing.
 
TNG was marred by sloppy and inconsistent writing in the beginning as well as the cast not having a solid handle on their characters until later. No comparison with TOS where the writing and performances were solid from the get-go.
 
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top