Scifi with aggressive sexuality

[Zaku]

No. You're not getting it. She was coerced into this decision. It is a common tactic, when putting someone off balance, to force them into a life or death decision and to raise the stakes. To put it another way, the boatman demanded sex so this poor woman could go see her fiance. He is clearly in the wrong. He is CLEARLY in the wrong. The fiance rejected his own bride to be because of his insecurity, and because to him a woman is no longer worth having if she's "spoiled" by another man. How do you not see this? It is rape. Clearly, it is rape.

Yes he is wrong. Incredibly wrong. But I would call it "sexual extortion", that is a crime almost serious as rape.

Perhaps we are just debuting terms?

 

[Amaris]

Yes he is wrong. Incredibly wrong. But I would call it "sexual extortion", that is a crime almost serious as rape.

Perhaps we are just debuting terms?

Yes, because it's clearly rape.

 

[Bob The Skutter]

Depends on the version of the story as to whether it fits the dictionary definition, doesn't it? But in the end it doesn't matter what the dictionary definition is, the intention is clear in the moral question.

 

[Amaris]

Depends on the version of the story as to whether it fits the dictionary definition, doesn't it? But in the end it doesn't matter what the dictionary definition is, the intention is clear in the moral question.

I agree, though I do feel that dictionary definitions don't do the real heinousness of the act any justice. If anyone is coerced into sex, as far as I'm concerned it's rape. In the story given above, the woman is clearly coerced, and made to feel that her only option is to spend the night with the boatman. He raped her, because she didn't make the choice of her own free will.

 

[Zaku]

Yes, because it's clearly rape.

From Rape Investigation Handbook

Of course, the sailor did something wrong and it would be a crime in many jurisdictions, but probably it would not be always considered "rape".

 

[Amaris]

From Rape Investigation Handbook

Of course, the sailor did something wrong and it would be a crime in many jurisdictions, but probably it would not be always considered "rape".

She is being sexually coerced into the act against her will. It is rape. It is important for you to realize here that this is getting into "legitimate rape" territory, and is one of the primary reasons why women don't come forward when sexually assaulted.

 

[Zaku]

Do not misunderstand me, I think the sexual extortion is serious as rape, but for me they are two slightly different crimes. And the fiancee is the worst, because he put the life of the woman at risk.

 

[Amaris]

Do not misunderstand me, I think the sexual extortion is serious as rape, but for me they are two slightly different crimes. And the fiancee is the worst, because he put the life of the woman at risk.

The fiance is definitely an asshole on a grand scale, and is most assuredly scum. The thing is, this doesn't change that the boatman is a rapist. I'm sure the woman will understand the fine line between rape and sexual coercion as she's told by the boatman "fuck me or you'll never see your fiance again," and I'm sure her body will understand as well, if it's a legitimate rape. You know I hear they have a way of shutting that whole thing down.

 

[Zaku]

A woman who is engaged to be married is not the equivalent of a man who's engaged to be married. Her identity and social and financial future hinges on the outcome in a way his doesn't. Pressuring her into sexual relations as the price of getting that outcome may not be "according-to-Hoyle" rape, but it's most certainly a profoundly immoral exploitation and not excusable. The boatman comes out the lowest by a comfortable margin. The "uninvolved" incarnation-of-privilege man and the nearly-as-expoitive wealthy man can fight over the next two spots, and the fiance can screw himself for blaming her instead of the boatman.

I was talking about definitions and for me sexual extortion and rape are two (not very) distinct crimes.

 

[Amaris]

I was talking about definitions and for me sexual extortion and rape are two (not very) distinct crimes.

That's because you have the privilege, the luxury, of standing off to the side and commenting on hair splitting definitions of soul shattering, horrendous acts. Women every day live in fear of that very thing, and I don't think the supposed fine lines between the two definitions matter much to them, other than that they're at risk of it everywhere they go, and live in a culture that actively and passively permits it.

 

[Zaku]

The fiance is definitely an asshole on a grand scale, and is most assuredly scum. The thing is, this doesn't change that the boatman is a rapist. I'm sure the woman will understand the fine line between rape and sexual coercion as she's told by the boatman "fuck me or you'll never see your fiance again," and I'm sure her body will understand as well, if it's a legitimate rape. You know I hear they have a way of shutting that whole thing down.

Please do not think just because I do not agree on the technical definition of the crime of sailor I do not think he's scum, or that the woman has suffered. And surely she suffered as a rape victim.

 

[Amaris]

Please do not think just because I do not agree on the technical definition of the crime of sailor I do not think he's scum, or that the woman has suffered. And surely she suffered as a rape victim.

Then why niggle over the definition when it is clearly rape? What is there to be gained? You and I are very unlikely to ever be victims of rape. Women live in fear of that day in and day out. It's the monkey on their back that never goes away. This isn't some detached conversation, this is a reality for billions of women all over the world.

 

[Zaku]

That's because you have the privilege, the luxury, of standing off to the side and commenting on hair splitting definitions of soul shattering, horrendous acts.

I'm sorry, but we aren't commenting a real crime story where probably I would have agreed with you because we are talking about a suffering of real person. This is an academic exercise about morality. The act of the sailor was morally wrong as rape? Yes. Was it technically a rape? In my opinion, no.

 

[Amaris]

I'm sorry, but we aren't commenting a real crime story where probably I would have agreed with you because we are talking about a suffering of real person. This is an academic exercise about morality. The act of the sailor was morally wrong as rape? Yes. Was it technically a rape? In my opinion, no.

It's all academic when the fear doesn't exist. In the case of the story, the sailor committed rape. The sailor is a rapist, and the woman he coerced was raped. The technicality of it doesn't matter to the person being raped.

 

[Zaku]

Let's agree that we disagree.

And yes, I'm a man. Yes, I will never understand what a woman have to endure in a similar situation. But I do not think this prevents me from expressing an opinion, or to say that the sailor in real life should probably meet the same sentencing as if he made a non-violent rape.

 

[Trekkin]

Nope, it's rape. Pretty clear cut case too.

http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/nsw/consol_act/ca190082/s61ha.html

Skip down to the parts pertaining to 'reasonable knowledge of consent', 'threats of force or terror,' 'intimidatory or coercive conduct' and 'abuse of position.'

Oh, and the disclaimer at the bottom that the list is not exhaustive. A judge has some discretion to apply a broader interpretation of the legislation for specific circumstances.

 

[Zaku]

Nope, it's rape. Clear and simple.

http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/nsw/consol_act/ca190082/s61ha.html

Skip down to the parts pertaining to 'reasonable knowledge of consent', 'threats of force or terror,' 'intimidatory or coercive conduct' and 'abuse of position.'

I already said that the definition of "rape" depends on the jurisdiction. And that "sexual extortion" in my mind is a serious crime as rape.

 

[Amaris]

Let's agree that we disagree.

And yes, I'm a man. Yes, I will never understand what a woman have to endure in a similar situation. But I do not think this prevents me from expressing an opinion, or to say that the sailor in real life should probably meet the same sentencing as if he made a non-violent rape.

Your opinion holds no weight against a woman's reality. That is something you need to understand. You can say "it's only my opinion," and it is, but it's an uninformed opinion that eschews the filthy reality of what women have to stare down every single day, what they have to live in, what they have to work in, the way they have to live their lives is because too many men have the opinion that things aren't as seemingly drastic as women say they are, and so the violence and the coercion continues, passively approved by a system that only cares enough to get what it wants out of the deal, and then again women are coerced into accepting it. It is shameful.

So no, it's more than just "expressing an opinion." So much more.

 

[Trekkin]

'Sexual extortion' and 'rape' (meaning non-consensual penetration inolving genitals) are both sexual assault.

Attempting to draw a line between them, in a discussion regarding a crimes level of morality or 'seriousness', suggests you do think one is worse than the other.

 

[Zaku]

Your opinion holds no weight against a woman's reality. That is something you need to understand. You can say "it's only my opinion," and it is, but it's an uninformed opinion that eschews the filthy reality of what women have to stare down every single day, what they have to live in, what they have to work in, the way they have to live their lives is because too many men have the opinion that things aren't as seemingly drastic as women say they are, and so the violence and the coercion continues, passively approved by a system that only cares enough to get what it wants out of the deal, and then again women are coerced into accepting it. It is shameful.

So no, it's more than just "expressing an opinion." So much more.

Thank you for painting me as a mysoginistic monster when I said:

• The woman is the only innocent one in the story and the real victim
• The sailor is morally (and legally) guilty as if he had raped her
• The woman suffered the same consequences as she had been raped
• But I don't agree with you that I would call this technically a rape, but instead an equally heinous crime.

Thank you very much

And yes, I expressed an opinion because we aren't in courtroom and I'm not a judge. We are talking about an academic exercise in morality, where we agree on the moral scale of the characters but I'm the worst of the worst because I don't agree with you over a definition.

'Sexual extortion' and 'rape' (meaning non-consensual penetration inolving genitals) are both sexual assault.

Attempting to draw a line between them, in a discussion regarding a crimes level of morality or 'seriousness', suggests you do think one is worse than the other.

Read above. I SAID THAT IS A SERIOUS CRIME AS NON VIOLENT RAPE (we can agree that a violent rape is worse, right?).