Scifi with aggressive sexuality

[Amaris]

It might be just given the general ickiness of Harry Mudd as a figure, I basically assume him to be pimping / slave-trading rather than running a legitimate "marriage agency." (I'm sure the episode dances merrily indeed upon that line, it would be characteristic of Roddenberry.) At any rate marriage agencies are a frequently-shady cover for human trafficking and that dimension of the story should occur readily enough to any modern audience that it would need to be addressed.

I generally assumed it was a con. He finds some lonely miners, they pay for brides, and Harry is supposed to deliver. I also felt, even when I was younger, that the women were not meant to stay brides. As in, as soon as the money exchanged hands, the ladies were on the planet, Harry would later come along and retrieve them for the next con. I'm not sure where I got the idea, but yeah, it always felt like a human trafficking con game.

 

[stardream]

I generally assumed it was a con. He finds some lonely miners, they pay for brides, and Harry is supposed to deliver. I also felt, even when I was younger, that the women were not meant to stay brides. As in, as soon as the money exchanged hands, the ladies were on the planet, Harry would later come along and retrieve them for the next con. I'm not sure where I got the idea, but yeah, it always felt like a human trafficking con game.

I never got that vibe at all.
I always thought it was just what it was. Mail order brides which was once a legitimate thing...in America anyway.

 

[BigJake]

Mail order brides have probably always been a slightly shady thing. Just not the kind of shady at which Sixties America batted an eye.

 

[Kemaiku]

You know, there is so much interesting content to be explored when we talk about sexuality in the media, especially in sci-fi and fantasy because there are the conflicting drives of the genres historically being dominated by the target male audience and the misogynistic trends that often go with that, but also being some of the most progressive and innovative forms of storytelling, and of serving as social commentary.

We could be talking about so many things.

Instead we're still trying to get across the basic concept that women are people and that when you do things to hurt people they usually end up getting hurt.

I know we bring Supernatural up enough to annoy...pretty much everyone else on the board.

But I do love the LARP episode, how many primetime TV shows risk a random episode of the week to having the girl rescue the damsel?

 

[Amaris]

I never got that vibe at all.
I always thought it was just what it was. Mail order brides which was once a legitimate thing...in America anyway.

I think everyone takes the episode differently, depending upon what they knew at the time. When I was a kid having watched the episode, I had just read about slavery, and it felt like there was some connection.

 

[{ Emilia }]

So, men need to listen carefully to what women are saying in order to understand them while women already perfectly understand men?

I don't think men struggle to get their voices heard, you know? Despite all the MRA victim rhetoric we hear so much, we're still living in a society that is dominated by a male narrative. You don't realize that because you probably think that the "standard narrative" is just some gender-neutral one. It is not.
The male narrative is what's been dominant in societies for centuries. The whole point of feminism is to get the female narrative heard for a change. We struggle so much to get our voices heard BECAUSE our voices clash with the dominant narrative. People (mostly men) really struggle to understand us because it goes against their own experiences of male privilege that have shaped the male-dominated discourse.
Women are still struggling to be heard in that discourse. Men have nothing to worry about in that regard. You're still more influential, more powerful, louder and more established.

Of course that also does not mean we should stop listening to men. And I don't see any feminists suggesting that. We want gender equality, not the rule of matriarchy (Hey, it might be fun, though. I could drown all my male enemies in my menstrual blood.)

The point is the male narrative of why men feel they need to catcall women or harass them is something we reject. Agency, my dear. It's like a magic word. The only thing women want is to be treated as human beings with agency. I don't see men having that same problem systemically.
If in doubt, read my long post about privilege again. I'm sure you won't argue with that.

If there is one thing we can be absolutely sure of it is this: The voices of straight white men are not underrepresented in discourse.

And to claim anything else will just net you a lot of eye-rolling here.

It is the same as complaining "Why is nobody listening to white people????" when it's really the voices of black people we need to listen to more. Oppressed groups struggle to get their voices heard, dominant groups do not. What's next? "Why's nobody listening to straight people"?

Straight male whitey is getting heard all the time.

What if these boyfriends were men that you yourself were attracted to? Would you care then?

I can't tell if you're serious, honestly.
I accept that it is not for me to decide who anybody else should be attracted to. Which means it doesn't "drive me mad" as you put it.

It's sad to be rejected, sure. But I would never assume that the guy just doesn't get that I'm the correct partner instead. What kind of bizarre thinking is that?

Like I said it's possible to realize that somebody you're attracted to is in a horrible abusive relationship with a jerk partner. But even then that doesn't mean that you specifically are really the person they should be with instead. If there's no attraction, there's no attraction.
Simply not being an asshole like their current partner doesn't mean you're Mr. Right. There are millions of non-assholes out there so that doesn't make you special. Who knows who she's attracted to.

 

[The Borgified Corpse]

Stop trying so hard. Desperation, whether it is the socially awkward kind or the aggressive in your face kind is not at all attractive.

True. Although much easier said than done. And certainly a much more complicated operation than something like "13 Sexy Eye Makeup Looks You Can Do in 5 Minutes."

Since these men cannot stop these women from running for office or becoming astronauts or whatever cat calling is basically admitting that this is their last desperate means of showing they can still control SOMETHING about women.

You keep saying that men are trying to "control" women. What men are you hearing say this? When a man comments on your sexual attractiveness or lack thereof or whatever, why aren't you taking what he's saying at face value?

The problem is that, as a society, men and women do not have equal power.

Individual men & women don't have equal power between each other either. Some women have more power, some men have less.

 

[Awesome Possum]

Individual men & women don't have equal power between each other either. Some women have more power, some men have less.

So what. The American President is black, but racism is still a huge problem in America. Arguing that some women have some degree of power over men doesn't make sexism disappear.

 

[{ Emilia }]

True. Although much easier said than done. And certainly a much more complicated operation than something like "13 Sexy Eye Makeup Looks You Can Do in 5 Minutes."

Oh, come on... seriously?
Millions of women with body image issues, eating disorders and other shit because of society's expectations and the constant objectification. Millions of women being faced with either being told they're "hot but shallow" or "ugly" simply because of how we dress and how we apply our makeup. Millions of women constantly being judged primarily on their looks without even taking our personalities into account.

And you're really complaining: "Man, shit... why is it so super easy for women to get attention?"

No, we don't have it easier.

You keep saying that men are trying to "control" women.

The whole control/power issue has been explained ad nauseam in the last few pages. I suggest reading that. I really don't feel like going through this again.

Individual men & women don't have equal power between each other either. Some women have more power, some men have less.

That doesn't change the fact that there is a systemic power imbalance in society. If you don't see that, I again suggest you read my post about privilege... or... you know... just open your eyes a little.
That systemic power imbalance affects every woman.
There are other reasons for being at a disadvantage: race, disability, poverty...

Nobody is saying all men have an easy life. Male privilege just means that they are not systemically at a disadvantage because of their gender. At least not nearly to a degree that's even remotely comparable to women. (Again: Read my post on privilege if you struggle to understand that).

 

[Amaris]

Oh, come on... seriously?
Millions of women with body image issues, eating disorders and other shit because of society's expectations and the constant objectification. Millions of women being faced with either being told they're "hot but shallow" or "ugly" simply because of how we dress and how we apply our makeup. Millions of women constantly being judged primarily on their looks without even taking our personalities into account.

And you're really complaining: "Man, shit... why is it so super easy for women to get attention?"

No, we don't have it easier.



The whole control/power issue has been explained ad nauseam in the last few pages. I suggest reading that. I really don't feel like going through this again.



That doesn't change the fact that there is a systemic power imbalance in society. If you don't see that, I again suggest you read my post about privilege... or... you know... just open your eyes a little.
That systemic power imbalance affects every woman.
There are other reasons for being at a disadvantage: race, disability, poverty...

Nobody is saying all men have an easy life. Male privilege just means that they are not systemically at a disadvantage because of their gender. At least not nearly to a degree that's even remotely comparable to women. (Again: Read my post on privilege if you struggle to understand that).

He's arguing nothing but strawmen. You might as well not even be here to answer.

 

[fireproof78]

Here's a great example of the male narrative in popular culture. It's interesting realize that even things like "Robot Chicken" and comedy can be used to perpetuate this narrative without any thought to the potential consequences.

And before the arguments start of "Don't take it so seriously-it's only a joke" there are some jokes that require such a desensitization to real world plights that eventually it ceases to be a joke and becomes a point of view.

I certainly don't consider myself and expert on this, so I welcome feedback on the article. But, I stumbled upon it and it seemed strangely relevant.

 

[Robert Maxwell]

Chalk me up as another person who enjoyed Robot Chicken when it was first airing, but am much less enamored with the "edgy" elements of it now. I suppose one shouldn't expect much from a show that is essentially about grown men making dirty jokes in stop-motion with action figures. It's aggressively masculine. Some of the skits and gags are still hilarious--but a lot of them are just really cheap, lowest common denominator jokes that punch down and think rape and racism are funny.

"It's just a joke" is always the weakest of justifications, as if one's humorous intent is the only measure we should use in determining a response. It's also commonly used to deflect from explaining what very obviously are not jokes, once again, for the speaker to avoid responsibility for what they're expressing.

 

[BigJake]

Chicken's "sexual" humour was some of its weakest and least memorable material in the long run, and there was good reason for that. I don't actually remember a lot of the "rape" sketches, which would appear to be a mercy.

 

[stardream]

The only thing I remember from it is 'Little Hitler'. It's not something I watched on even a semi-regular basis. I only caught episodes here and there.

 

[thestrangequark]

I know we bring Supernatural up enough to annoy...pretty much everyone else on the board.

But I do love the LARP episode, how many primetime TV shows risk a random episode of the week to having the girl rescue the damsel?

1. It was awesome to have the Queen rescue her damsel!
2. Actually, the main reason I loved that episode isn't related to the thread topic though -- it was just a really good demonstration of one of Dean's character traits that I personally identify with: the person who was forced to grow up way too fast as a kid and so reverts a bit sometimes as an adult. I just think that show does such an accurate and empathetic job at depicting the real effects of trauma (even if the traumas in the show are fantastical), and that's one of the things that makes it great.

As for @The Borgified Corpse , I'll keep this short because you don't seem to read very much of what people write. As for all your Oh No!s about women you're attracted to dating assholes and not the nice guys. The thing about pretty much all the guys in the history of Ever who've made that complaint? They're the assholes.
Perhaps you should take a minute to examine how you've treated the women in this thread before you ask the question yet again.

 

[Timby]

So, men need to listen carefully to what women are saying in order to understand them while women already perfectly understand men?

What if these boyfriends were men that you yourself were attracted to? Would you care then?

Your posts read like someone who's still stuck in this mentality of "Aw, man, why won't these girls go out with me," as though you're still in high school and sitting in the corner at the Homecoming dance.

It's not that women already perfectly understand men. Everyone needs to make an effort to listen carefully to what is being said to them, regardless of gender. When my wife says something I fully disagree with, I tell her so, and when I say something she disagrees with, she lets me know in no uncertain terms that I've misspoken.

That's part of, you know, being a decent human being. I've been attracted to plenty of women in my life, and if they had boyfriends or partners? I didn't give a shit, because their own life wasn't -- and will never be -- my business. So stop being a sad sack and feeling sorry for yourself. People are people. No one -- man or woman, gay or straight, transgender or just weird on their own terms -- is cattle.

 

[BillJ]

It's not that women already perfectly understand men. Everyone needs to make an effort to listen carefully to what is being said to them, regardless of gender. When my wife says something I fully disagree with, I tell her so, and when I say something she disagrees with, she lets me know in no uncertain terms that I've misspoken.

The secret to a successful marriage, in my opinion. Just simple respect for each other.

Sorry for the sidebar.

 

[Shanndee]

This thread (shakes head sadly). The trolls keep pushing the buttons of the reasonable people. The reasonable people tear the troll arguments apart point by point. The trolls don't bother to read said rebuttals and continue to spew ignorance.

Well, the reasonable people know the value of the truth that they speak. Society is beginning to hear us, and the scales are slowly beginning to balance. Even if we stop feeding the trolls, our daily actions will lead us closer to real equality. No MRA troll can stop that.

Hopefully the way the entertainment industry represents women will change to illustrate this. Media is starting to depict strong female characters, and that will help normalize the reality of women as strong, independent individuals with agency. Unfortunately SF&F has a long way to go to catch up with other forms of media (and yes, I'm glaring at you again Game of Thrones).

 

[Timby]

The secret to a successful marriage, in my opinion. Just simple respect for each other.

That's the secret to life in general, honestly: Treat everyone you meet with every ounce of respect that you can muster. If a person proves to be a jackwagon, then, okay, that person is a jackwagon. But there is no reason, ever, to automatically assume the worst when encountering someone for the first time. And no matter what, an unfortunate / unpleasant encounter with someone is not going to cause the planet to stop spinning, nor are we all going to get flung into outer space.

But whining about people having partners while you want to be with them? Complaining that one gender doesn't understand the other? Grow up.

 

[Bob The Skutter]

Orphan Black is often cited as a very feminist show.

I might be remembering "Mudd's Women" unfairly but it seemed to me to treat the idea of human trafficking / prostitution a bit... lightly. I think a modern treatment of that story would have to be considerably harsher in every way.

There is that stuff to it. One of the women mentions Mudd is so used to trading people he forgets they're people and no one bats an eyelid. But I was thinking of so many romcoms where there an "ugly duckling" lead woman who has a make over and becomes "hot" then discovered what makes her attractive is getting self confident and gets the man even though he's a shallow jerk. And that's the sort of thing it reminded me of, though it's less rom and less com.