Scifi with aggressive sexuality

[CorporalCaptain]

I'm just trying to examine the facts at hand, sometimes from angles that other people in this thread don't seem to be looking at too closely.

I see no meaningful positions expressed in your posts that have been overlooked by others.

And by the way, doesn't giving all people the benefit of the doubt extend to supposing that, when they say that they've considered your position and rejected it, then perhaps in fact they have, after looking at it from every reasonable angle, including perhaps some you haven't even considered? Or, was that not the group of people you had in mind when you said "all" (since you were focusing at that point on transgressors)?:

I like to give all people the benefit of the doubt. When someone transgresses the normal rules of decent society, I think it's worth asking, "Why did he do that? What motivated him to behave in that way? Why don't other people do the same thing?"

 

[BigJake]

Some men are engaging in catcalling. . . Presumably, they are doing this because they want to have sex with the women that they are catcalling towards.

If you're really "trying to think through this issue logically," you just fell at the first hurdle. God, even just think of it as a man: would you really be expecting sex to come out of randomly hollering at someone on the street? I mean, apparently you think it's affront to masculinity that men have to actually do anything to merit sexual attention, so maybe you do expect that, but I can pretty much guarantee you that's not what guys on the street are thinking.

Because mostly, they're not thinking. They don't have to. They see a body on the street that they find appealing, and they holler at it -- "it," not "her" -- because they think of "it" as an object, not a person, and they know they won't face any consequences, and they'll be high-fived by their bros because it's a "normal" thing to just indulge the immediate reaction in a way they'd never dare to do or even think to do with a man. Because it's masculine privilege.

Money doesn't have anything to do with sex (unless you've got a dead-guys-in-powdered-wigs fetish).

Money can have quite a bit to do with sex, depending on your circumstances. How do you think Donald Trump ever reproduced? Why do you think his brides tend to be women from economically-desperate circumstances?

[Emilia] herself said previously in the thread that sometimes a woman might want to be objectified in the course of some sexual role play or something.

With her consent, not by some random twit on the street... or for that matter on a message board. Where is all this logical-thinking-through you're supposed to be doing? Or are you just assuming the posture of "logic" because you mistakenly imagine yourself to be automatically entitled to it as a male, without having to do any of the actual mental work? (Because that happens quite often.)

I never said I wanted it. But I can imagine situations where a man would wish to be sexually desired with the kind of vigor with which men often have for women.

Being sexually desired with vigor is a lovely thing. Being treated as an object isn't.

there isn't a whole industry of fashion magazines dedicated to advising men on how to be more sexually attractive

Actually there is, and surprise surprise, it's mostly focused on telling men how to project as privileged and confident in order to pick up women. Though I hesitate to counsel you to pick up an issue of Maxim because you seem like exactly the kind of person the "PUA" scam racket chooses as a mark.

And yet, it seems that only men are engaging in catcalling. I'm just trying to get to the bottom of that.

No, you're not. Because you're flapping your digital jaws instead of actually listening to what people have plainly told you a bunch of times now.

But then, there's this unfortunate notion in our society that sex is something that women aren't interested in and that it's something that men have to "trick" women into doing or something.

It's treated as something women have to be tricked or intimidated into doing by people who think they're entitled to do so because putting any effort into building a genuine relationship with them is too much work, and why do that if the very notion of having to "do" anything to merit their attention offends you? That's called male privilege. You're soaking in it while trying to pretend otherwise and it's super-obvious.

I'm not even going to touch "feminist victimization," rich indeed because if anyone's been playing the victim card here it's you. Good look finding a path toward being better, I'm done.

 

[Gov Kodos]

If we're to understand gender relations, we all need to understand both sides as best we can. I'm just trying to provide a flipside male perspective.

Dismissing the realities of women's lives is not providing any flip side to anything.

For the record, those posts offering justification for personal intrusions and vulgarities, for attempting to build a false equivalency between the problems men and women face, and asserting that women somehow "treat men's sexuality with contempt" are prime examples of rape culture. No, they do not explicitly justify or glorify rape - but they are part of the culture that insists that little to no consequences should result from when a man tries to assert dominance over a woman - regardless of whether it's a stranger on the street, an acquaintance, co-worker, what have you.

No woman should feel as though it is her responsibility for validating the frustrated sexuality of a man who thinks it's perfectly acceptable, and that he's perfectly entitled to, intrude upon a woman by cat-calling, commanding a smile, touching, or otherwise invading her personal space, including denials that women routinely face problems such as these. This creates a general (and genuine) concern for personal safety and agency - not the least of which is when posts such as these explicitly attempt to delegitimize the issue.

Put simply, there are far more vulgarities - far more personally toxic words and ideas - in those posts than in the one directly above this one.

 

[Shanndee]

Holy crap this thread moved fast...and in a sad, predictable direction. I haven't yet caught up and I'm not sure that I want to.

I had a really long, very difficult day at work and I simply don't have the energy to reply to some of the misogyny trying to disguise itself as "reason" that I have seen. But that is ok. Several people have shown their true colours, and I know who I can have a reasonable discussion with and who isn't worth the effort it takes to scroll through a post. So...this thread is really helpful!

I'll catch up tomorrow after a decent nights sleep.

 

[Bob The Skutter]

This thing about recognising people are individuals with different experiences is where intersectionality comes in. You can be a poor, disabled and white man, so you have the privileges of being white and a man and the disadvantages of being poor and disabled. Your disadvantages intersect with others so you may have had similar experiences with other disadvantaged groups but being white and male you're unlikely to have experienced it all. Which is where the recognition of individuals having different lives and experiences matters.

I have been told to smile and even flashed by women in bars, had men slap my arse while with friends in a gay bar but I wouldn't pretend this is somehow in the same league as what women experience. For one my friend told the guy I was straight and his response was "shame" and then left me alone. For another I had no concern I would be assaulted by the women.

The best thing any of us can do when it comes to understanding is actually listen and try to understand what we're being told of someone else's experience.

 

[Zaku]

Your reasoning leads to men thinking that because I'm wearing a revealing dress I'm causing them to want me and that I have to live with the consequence of them harassing me, feeling entitled to my attention or attraction, or raping me. Because hey, that is how they feel.

Don't you know? Men are exactly like the bull in the Looney Toons, so obviously when we see a revealing dress we lose any higher cerebral function. I would give you the details, but it is a complicated evolutionary/genetic thing, so just take my word for it.

But yes, essentially it's your fault.

Indeed in countries where women are forced to wear burqua they are treated with respect and are seen as fellow human beings.

I'm sorry but it's science.(*)

^men

^you

(*) I actually met people that said something similar but in a serious way.

 

[Rincewiend]

But perhaps this theoretical man is seeking for himself some kind of outside sexual validation from a woman that he sees and finds attractive? How would you suggest that he obtain it?

Well, not like this...

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[Neroon]

You're disgusting. I'll take a warning for it, I don't care. Feminist victim narrative, my ass, and don't you fucking put oppression in goddamned scare quotes you fucker. These women have been trying to get through to your sorry, lazy excuse for a brain, but you've been so busy flapping your empty jaws that you haven't listened to a word they've said, and have instead overrode their very personal experiences with some stupid devil's advocate bullshit that is the hallmark of a pseudo-intellectual pretentious twit. So go ahead, dumbass, "All Lives Matter" this entire group of people and let them see you for the misogynistic scumbag you really are.

Fuck you.

Warning for flaming. Comments, if you feel they are truly necessary, should be sent via PM..

 

[{ Emilia }]

Many have previously stated in this thread that men cannot truly understand the female experience. That may be true. But then, by the same token, women can't understand the male experience.

Society's narrative is basically the male experience. The male experience also isn't generally full of being objectified, abused, harassed and stripped of agency.
So how about we focus on the actual problem?
Men being told that they can't harass a woman even if they're feeling attracted to her, isn't really something I feel much sympathy with.

And doesn't that drive you mad?

The fact that asshole women have boyfriends, too?
What the hell? Of course not. Why would I care?

I suppose that means it does drive you mad that men you consider to be not as nice as yourself, have girlfriends.
Again: "Being nice" doesn't entitle anybody to any romantic feelings. There is a lot more to romance. And it's pretty patronizing to think that you know better what these women really want than they themselves do.
If you're seeing an abusive relationship you can of course offer help. But even if her current relationship is awful, that doesn't mean that she should really be having romantic feeling for you instead, just because you're nicer. Maybe she just isn't attracted to you.

And while context does matter, how is a stranger supposed to know what your specific boundaries are? Like I said, perhaps he's merely treating you the way that he wishes you would treat him? Have you ever tried?

You're pretending this is way more difficult than it really is. It's not rocket science, really.
A woman who is alone in a club? Sure, approach her and ask her if she's interested. If she isn't, tough luck. You're not entitled to anything just because you think she's hot.

That is very different from catcalling a random woman on the street who is just going about her business. That's never okay.
And don't even get me started on what guys seem to think is acceptable at the workplace.

I'm not sure why this is such a difficult concept. Respect women's agency and don't treat us like objects. We're human beings, too.

The problem is that you assume that every man who is interested in sex or asking for sex believes that he is entitled to sex.

I don't assume that at all. There are men who take rejection perfectly well and continue to be polite. Many men sadly do not. They are the problem.
You know, the men who call you an uppity bitch just because you politely rejected them. Or the men who think "No" just means they need to try harder instead of respecting my agency.

Just because you feel threatened, it doesn't always mean that a threat is there. Sometimes it does. But, statistically, you're no more likely to be victimized by a violent crime than anyone else, male or female.

That is dismissive nonsense and you know that. Do you ever have to worry about getting raped when you're out alone at night? Or heck, even during the day, when a random man decides to follow you around for 15 minutes to look at your legs or whatever. Yes, these things regularly happen to women.
The fact that we always have that in the back of our minds is not paranoia. It's part of our everyday experiences.
Have you seen the statistics? Do you know how incredibly likely it is for a woman to get raped? When 1 in 4 women gets raped in college?

If people's chances of being murdered were even remotely the same, nobody would even leave the house anymore.
Oh, damn... but even that doesn't help because many women are raped in their own houses by friends and family.

Do you understand how incredibly arrogant and tone-deaf it is for a man to tell a woman not to worry too much about this shit?

What I'm saying is that none of us have full control over our outside environment. We can try to protect ourselves as much as we can but other people are unpredictable by nature. We are all at times subject to treatment from other people that we don't like. You try to rationalize it by saying that it happens because you're a woman and society doesn't respect women. In reality, most stuff happens simply because you were there and the other person has complex issues of their own.

That is nonsense.
First of all these things do happen because we are women and rape culture and sexist society do reinforce this behavior.
Men are not facing sexual harassment, abuse and rape like that.
And then: Wow, good job being dismissive. "It happens to everybody" and essentially "Men will be men" are absurd things to reply to serious concerns about a society that actually reinforces this behavior through a sexist narrative of objectification and male entitlement.

But perhaps this theoretical man is seeking for himself some kind of outside sexual validation from a woman that he sees and finds attractive? How would you suggest that he obtain it?

By treating us like human beings.

But none of what you're talking about actually has anything to do with sex. That's my point. In our society, a man can't just be sexy of his own accord.

Of course they can. What world do you live in?
Attraction is obviously not limited to physical attraction but there are many ways for men to be physically attractive. It's true that society expects it of you less than it does of us (which seems to be changing slowly).

Women can wear make-up & stockings & high heels & corsets & all manner of things that serve no purpose except to make her sexier.

For male gaze?
I can't stress enough that I primarily pick my clothes based on the styles I personally like, my own sense of aesthetics, beauty and design and how wearing them makes me feel.
Whether or not that looks sexy to some random guy is pretty damn low on my list of priorities.
Fashion is a way to express myself.
Sure, it's nice when that makes me feel confident, stylish and sexy.

She can take steps to sexually objectify herself if she chooses. What recourse is there for heterosexual men who want to be sexually objectified?

Objectification is horrible. It's awful and dehumanizing. Even if it sounds interesting to you because of some kink, it really loses its appeal when you're faced with it almost every day of your life.

As I said, just because someone is requesting something, it doesn't automatically mean that the asker feels entitled to it.

We are not talking about guys who politely approach us in some club or bar and then take rejection well. I always try and be super-friendly and polite then. I just expect to be treated like a human being. And decent men seem to have no problem understanding that you can approach a woman in a club because you're attracted by her, and still treat her like a human being and respect her agency. These men are not the problem. In fact I very much enjoy flirting with men who treat me like a human being.

We are talking about men who objectify us, feel entitled to our attention, our bodies and possibly more.

But if we're going to be talking about gender relations, one of the questions we need to ask is: Why does this seem to be happening only one way? Why are men interested in sex with strangers while women are not?

Apart from the fact that the statement is nonsense (You make a lot of weird assumptions about female desire), it really isn't a question we desperately need to ask.

1. Some men are engaging in catcalling.
2. Presumably, they are doing this because they want to have sex with the women that they are catcalling towards.

I think there's way more to it. The power trip they feel when they can use their position of dominance in society to objectify a woman in wildly inappropriate contexts. The entitlement they feel that tells them that their male opinion on women's bodies is so important that they need to let everybody know about it. And lots more.

So what would that tactic be? Perhaps women would have some insight as to what they do find sexually appealing?

I can only speak for myself but: Men who treat me like a human being with agency, who are open-minded, my kind of funny, intelligent, who love long conversations (true conversations, not just listening to their own voice) and who fascinate me. And yes, if we're just talking about sexual appeal physical attraction plays a role, too. Obviously.
There are many other qualities like being loving and caring, not being afraid of your emotions...

Oh hell, and they need to be nice. Shocking.

It sounds like a lot but it really isn't. I think most people's list looks pretty much the same. We are attracted to people who fascinate us.

In answer to your bank robber analogy, the answer is to get a job. Getting money is not, in theory, a difficult question. Getting sex is much more complex.

So that's your excuse?
Bank robbery is a crime, so is rape.
You're saying there are ways to make money other than bank robbery so bank robbery is bad.
You're also saying getting sex is more complex. Now first of all I think that's bullshit. Economic success isn't easy. We probably have more poor or almost-poor people in society than we have eternal singles.
But back to what your statement implied: There are hardly any ways to get sex so it's okay to ignore a woman's agency?

No, hold on a second there: Have you really processed what a scary statement that is?
I know I felt sick when reading your post and it seems I wasn't the only one.

{Emilia} herself said previously in the thread that sometimes a woman might want to be objectified in the course of some sexual role play or something.

That's the point. Role-play involves agency. Wanting it and communicating that.
I don't know how many times we have to explain agency here.

Sexually objectifying somebody who does not want that is something completely different.

I never said I wanted it. But I can imagine situations where a man would wish to be sexually desired with the kind of vigor with which men often have for women.

You're underestimating female desire. I almost giggled when I read that.
We love sex. We just don't force it on others when they reject us. If that is the "vigor" you meant.

But because this doesn't tend to happen

Intense female desire and lust? Of course it does.

And yet, it seems that only men are engaging in catcalling. I'm just trying to get to the bottom of that.

It's not that hard. It's a symptom of a systemically sexist society of male entitlement and female objectification.

But then, there's this unfortunate notion in our society that sex is something that women aren't interested in and that it's something that men have to "trick" women into doing or something. Asking for sex, although often done in a very vulgar fashion, is treated as an unwanted intrusion even in concept. Women ask to be respected and yet treat the sexual desires of men with contempt.

There is so much wrong in these few sentences, it's amazing.
We do not treat men's sexual desires with contempt at all. What we do treat with contempt is when men try to force these desires on us by objectifying and harassing us.

 

[Robert Maxwell]

If a guy thinks getting sex is really difficult, I would go out on a limb and suggest that maybe it's that guy who is the problem, and not feminism or women or whatever external force you want to blame it on.

When repugnant shitweasels have trouble getting laid, that's not a problem, that's working as designed.

And if a guy is having trouble because he's "shy" or "awkward," maybe he should consider the possibility that he is, in fact, just creepy.

 

[stardream]

What tactic should men use to achieve their objective?

Stop trying so hard. Desperation, whether it is the socially awkward kind or the aggressive in your face kind is not at all attractive. Don't drool or make suggestive comments to her, look at her eyes when you are talking to her and don't make comments about her body. Here's a thought...how about asking her about her job, her hobbies, her favorite place to vacation or the latest movie she's seen or book she's read. Yes her physical appearance might attract you at first but get to know the person in there.

As far as the cat calling is concerned I wonder sometimes if it's not the last gasp of a dying way of life. Women are commanding space missions, becoming world leaders, winning medals for bravery in the military and have shown they are capable of just about anything a man could do. Since these men cannot stop these women from running for office or becoming astronauts or whatever cat calling is basically admitting that this is their last desperate means of showing they can still control SOMETHING about women.

 

[Gov Kodos]

As far as the cat calling is concerned I wonder sometimes if it's not the last gasp of a dying way of life.

Would that it were or that confronting it worked as well or easily as it does for Anne Bancroft, here. 'Stop demeaning yourselves in public.'

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[thestrangequark]

thestrangequark, it's a legitimate question, despite your sarcastic response.

I'm just trying to think through the issue logically. Let's go through this step by step:

1. Some men are engaging in catcalling.
2. Presumably, they are doing this because they want to have sex with the women that they are catcalling towards.
3. Considering the hostile reactions that this evokes from the women in question, it's probably not going to work.
4. Since it's not going to work, they need to find some other tactic to achieve their objective (i.e. sex).
5. So what would that tactic be? Perhaps women would have some insight as to what they do find sexually appealing?

In answer to your bank robber analogy, the answer is to get a job. Getting money is not, in theory, a difficult question. Getting sex is much more complex.

Others have already addressed it while I slept, but I don't know that anyone did it with the bluntness and simplicity you require, and one key element was missed.

Firstly, as @BigJake pointed out, everyone knows men don't catcall to get sex. I mean, there may be some complete psycho who takes women's general responses of a)completely ignoring it, b)calling him a sleaze/slime/other name under her breath, c)tensing and walking away as fast as possible, d)telling him outright that she doesn't like it as positive reciprocation, but...well, you don't appreciate sarcasm so I'll stop there.

So, why do they do it? The need for sexual validation, particularly validation of their masculinity, which they do be demonstrating their power over women in public space by harassing them. You literally just made my point, that catcalling is about aggression and power dynamics, for me. The very point which you denied.

Onto, how do they "obtain" what they want? Well, let's start by not treating other people like objects that need obtaining and intimacy like a reward and an entitlement. Here is where you completely missed the point of the bank robber analogy and why I called your post "rapey." Men are no more entitled to women's bodies -- and this extends to harassing women -- than is the bank robber entitled to that money. Your post implied that harassment can be considered a reasonable method of "obtain[ing]" a woman's body, and that is absolutely loathsome.

Now, "rape" is a big word. And not one I'm going to throw around lightly. When I say your post had a "rapey" tone, I mean it. Consider that. That is how you sound. It doesn't mean you sound like a rapist, but it does mean you sound like someone who has normalized and internalized the idea that sex is something men are entitled to.

It tends to happen that when hoist up my petticoats and step on my Catcalling Soapbox people accuse me of making mountain of a molehill, or else say that I'm too sensitive and see every attention from a man as an affront. But women know the difference between looks and leers (No one can really help looks. I give looks! Looks can be pretty great!), and as @{ Emilia } has already said, context matters (there are times and places to pick up a chick, and I tend to make it pretty obvious when I want interact and when I do not). As for why catcalling is such an important issue, well, let's look at a typical day:

Dozens of catcalls, from the moment I step out my door at 7am to the moment I get home. This is with headphones on and "shields up" as I call it (I often blank out male attention as much as possible because of the amount of harassment I receive, to the point where I apologize in advance to male friends and colleagues in case I blank them on the street), so these are just the super loud, physical, and aggressive ones. Imagine how you would feel if people commented on your body all day long. What if you weren't feeling very good about yourself that day? What if you were already feeling self-conscious? What if you'd just had nightmares about the sexual assault you experienced as a child? -- Let's remember the percentage of women who've experienced sexual assault. What if you were just having one of those days where you really didn't feel up to dealing with people, but you gotta go to work, and you're a woman, so you know that on the street your body is fair game. That's just the way it is.
What if you were actually feeling your best? Maybe after hearing, "God bless you baby," "Give us a smile!" "Look at those pink cheeks, I see you blushin'!" "Mmmm, why don't you walk that sweet pussy over here?" "Oh, sexy, sexy! Damn, must be a fuckin' lesbian," "Hey mami! Hey, mami! Hey, I'm talking to you! I'm talking to you, you fucking bitch! Fucking ugly fucking dog bitch!" for 12 hours you might not feel so great anymore?

Now, add to this the fact that behind all that noise, you always know that one of them might actually hurt you if you don't react the way they want you to. Oh, and, you don't know how they want you to react, either! Fun, huh?! You know this because it's happened. Not a lot, but enough to know that it's always a possibility.

Starting small: There was the group who always got me by the autoshop on Montrose and it was raining, and I just couldn't handle the feeling of their eyes on my face that day, so I pulled my umbrella down low to shield my face. One of them snatched it out of my hands.
Then there was the guy who slapped my ass on the sidewalk.
Then there was the guy in line at the bodega, old enough to be my father, who told me I was sexy so I ignored him. He said, "Come on, sexy, don't ignore me," and started stroking my face. I slapped his hand away and he grabbed my wrist. The bodega owner threw him out before it went further.
Then there was the group of guys who wouldn't let me leave the train station and I had to wait with the station agent until the police came.
Then there was the guy who got up in my face while I was talking on the phone with my mom, licked his lips and said, "Mmmm sexy, What you got on under that coat" -- it was about 12ºF and I was wearing a parka that literally went from my neck to my ankles because, guess what, it doesn't matter what you're wearing! -- his intrusion put a hitch in my conversation and after he was, at least so I thought, out of earshot, I told my mom "Sorry, some gross guy was catcalling me." He heard me, came back, grabbed me by the shoulder and started yelling in my face, calling me "bitch" and all that. Middle of the afternoon in Astor Place. It only lasted a few seconds, thankfully.
Then there was the guy in the park off Delancey street, whose advances I tried to ignore, and he responded by grabbing me by both wrists and shaking me.
Then there was the group of guys who were catcalling me when I was 17, and I told them to fuck off, and one grabbed my by my braid and tried to pull me into an alley and I had to pull a boxcutter on him.
Then there was the guy who sat next to me on the train and whispered in my ear, "When you get off I'm going to follow you home and rape you."

So, imagine what it's like to step outside every day, and know that, while most men are great and don't harass women, a good portion of them do, and will harass you that day. And while most of the harassers are just trying to "obtain external sexual validation," a handful might just come after you if you don't give them the sense of power they crave. Then imagine coming online, and seeing someone try to justify their behavior, like YOU ARE DOING. Then imagine trying to enjoy a movie or TV show, and seeing the culture that supports their behavior reinforced over and over and over ad nauseam.

So, let's think through that logically. How should feminists address these issues if not by trying to put an end to hyper-sexualization of women in the media, decontextualized objectification in the media, normalized harassment in the streets, and the notion that women's bodies are something men are entitled to and can obtain?

 

[1001001]

So what would that tactic be? Perhaps women would have some insight as to what they do find sexually appealing.

My guess would be....not being approached "tactically" for the purposes of having sex.

 

[Jedman67]

Stop trying so hard. Desperation, whether it is the socially awkward kind or the aggressive in your face kind is not at all attractive. Don't drool or make suggestive comments to her, look at her eyes when you are talking to her and don't make comments about her body. Here's a thought...how about asking her about her job, her hobbies, her favorite place to vacation or the latest movie she's seen or book she's read. Yes her physical appearance might attract you at first but get to know the person in there.

It's not trying so hard that's the problem here, it's the method used when doing the trying - as you pointed out - that runs from creepy to borderline sexual assault. When I was dating my wife, I did my best to win her over. We spent a lot of time getting comfortable with each other, with getting to know each other. Friendships and romances do not happen overnight (unlike movies) and if you really want someone, you need to get to know them.
If you're just trying to get laid, you"ll end up with nothing.

 

[Zaku]

Onto, how do they "obtain" what they want? Well, let's start by not treating other people like objects

Perhaps there is someone out there with a lot of issues who love to be objectified. Unfortunately there are people who say that this should be the normal behavior of a woman.

 

[{ Emilia }]

The male perspective is often so skewed because many men don't seem to be aware of some of the shit women have to deal with all the time.

I don't often tell this kind of story but here's an example:
Just a few days ago I went out to a lounge for a cocktail with friends. Some random dude had been looking at me all night and when I went to the restroom, he intercepted me in the hallway in front of the restrooms. Blocking the narrow hallway with his body and arms. Nobody else around, so it was very uncomfortable.
He randomly told me I've got a hot body and said I should go home with him instead of with the people I came with. (because clearly the fact that he considered me hot is enough of a reason)
I asked him to let me pass, which only made him grin, one hand on each side of the narrow hallway. I ended up having to gently push my way through on one side, he used the opportunity to put his arm around my waist while I got past.

You never know how far these people will go. Don't be one of those guys. You're welcome to find women attractive, and in the right context you're also welcome to tell us that. But don't treat us like sex objects and act entitled. We don't owe you anything just because you find us hot.

Now who of you was thinking: "But what was @{ Emilia } wearing?!"

 

[Tom Hendricks]

Often makes me think of how men react to unwanted sexual attention.

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[thestrangequark]

Perhaps there is someone out there with a lot of issues who love to be objectified. Unfortunately there are people who say that this should be the normal behavior of a woman.

Actually, I don't think there is anything wrong with wanting to be objectified at times. And it doesn't mean you have issues. Sometimes that is a part of sex. The problem is when objectification is a constant, and the default mode with which a man approaches women. As I wrote in my earlier post, it's all about context. When the power dynamic is equal between the person objectifying and the person being objectified, and then the person being objectified wants it and consents to it, that is fine. Many people, including many women, prefer to be sexually submissive as well, which is also just fine. But all this must be done in a relationship where the power dynamics have been established (it doesn't even have to be a long-term relationship, it just has to be recognized and established).

The problem is that, as a society, men and women do not have equal power. This means that many men feel entitled to objectifying strangers on the street, where the power dynamic is inherently imbalanced. It means that, when objectification and hyper-sexualization of women in the media occurs without properly complicated contextualization the default context is one of imbalanced power.

 

[{ Emilia }]

^ Yup, that's exactly what I've tried to get across several times. It's really about agency and obviously power dynamics.