Legal situation concerning the new TV series

[Christopher]

I never believed the universe the Narada emerged into was the Prime Universe from my first viewing of '09 (nor did I believe old Spock was Spock Prime).

I know that was the intent but too many small details didn't add up.

There were always small details that didn't add up, like all the contradictions between "Space Seed" and The Wrath of Khan or between "The Host"'s Trill and DS9's Trill. So just having more such inconsistencies wasn't probative in itself.

But I agree that setting the timelines' pasts apart more overtly does provide a handy way of resolving such inconsistencies. It's certainly easier than trying to concoct explanations for every change, although concocting explanations can be fun.

It's great to hear that people (including the creators) are finally coming around to this way of seeing it.

Well, not exactly the same way -- Pegg said it was changed in both directions as a result of Nero's incursion, not that it was different to begin with. But functionally, it's a trivial distinction.

It's better for the creators to have this extended freedom, and it's given me a good breaking off point to not follow the books and comics in the rebooted universe. My 'To Read' pile was big enough already before the reboot.

For what it's worth, though, Spock Prime and Nero still came from the Prime Universe, in this new model. So any story about Spock Prime in the Kelvin Timeline is a continuation of the journey of the same Spock we've been following since 1966, just relocated to a new continuum. So it's not an entirely clean break.

If anything, I have the opposite reaction, in that this change could enable me to include more of the Kelvin tie-ins in my personal continuity than before. There were a lot of comics that I discounted as apocryphal because they required things to be different before 2233. Now that that's apparently feasible, I might reassess some of those stories.

 

[Dayton Ward]

I was always perfectly cool with Spock and the Narada having come from the original/Prime reality we know from TOS onward, into a reality that was always different, or at least the divergence occurs at some unknown point even farther in the past.

That opens up pretty much everything from a storytelling standpoint in-universe(s), and provides a clean break the way a real reboot would've done.

I say play on, boys and girls.

 

[David cgc]

Well, not exactly the same way -- Pegg said it was changed in both directions as a result of Nero's incursion, not that it was different to begin with. But functionally, it's a trivial distinction.

Among other things, it would allow (or, perhaps, require) the Kelvin Timeline crew to have their own versions of stories like "City on the Edge of Forever," or "The Voyage Home." Up till now, my take had been that the TOS-crew still had those adventures in the Kelvin Timeline. We certainly saw enough people from alternate, contradictory futures visit our heroes in the shows, it seemed sensible enough that the Kelvin Timeline's past was littered with visits by Prime-timeline characters (and, perhaps, vice-versa).

 

[Christopher]

I was always perfectly cool with Spock and the Narada having come from the original/Prime reality we know from TOS onward, into a reality that was always different, or at least the divergence occurs at some unknown point even farther in the past.

That opens up pretty much everything from a storytelling standpoint in-universe(s), and provides a clean break the way a real reboot would've done.

Yeah, but it kind of makes the story of the '09 movie more complicated than it needs to be. If it's just a spontaneously different timeline, then there's no need for a time-travel plot to justify the changes. If that had been the intent of Abrams, Kurtzman, and Orci, they might not have bothered with the time travel stuff at all, and we probably would've gotten a more cohesive story as a result. The main reason I've been so resistant to the idea that they just crossed over into a pre-existing alternate reality is that it makes so much of the story feel kind of pointless.

Still, that only applies to that specific film, I guess. As far as further stories are concerned, it is more liberating to make a clean break. And stories do occasionally get changed from their original intent, especially when new creators take over. Michael Piller never intended the Bajoran Wormhole's inhabitants to be the literal deities they became later on; they didn't even know what linear time was in his script, so they didn't seem that engaged with the outside universe. And Maurice Hurley didn't intend for the Borg to have a Queen or for all their drones to be assimilation victims. And Gene Roddenberry intended the Ferengi to be a serious adversary.

 

[Dayton Ward]

I think they needlessly overcomplicated the 2009 plot for the sake of what they perceived as "fan service," anyway. Though it was nice to see Leonard Nimoy as Spock again, I'd rather they just made a clean break from the jump. That way, things like Khan being a white British guy don't end up being an issue down the line.

But, they didn't ask me.

 

[The Wormhole]

Hell, I've also always felt a clean reboot is what they should have done. Trek fans would have classified it an alternate reality anyway without the characters spelling it out for them.

 

[Christopher]

I think they needlessly overcomplicated the 2009 plot for the sake of what they perceived as "fan service," anyway. Though it was nice to see Leonard Nimoy as Spock again, I'd rather they just made a clean break from the jump.

Me too, although I can understand why they felt they needed to appease the purists by saying "Look, really, this is a direct continuation of the 'real' universe and it's only different because of time travel." Although they were overoptimistic in that, because the purists just rejected the idea that it was a continuation anyway, or complained about the things that "should" be the same but weren't.

That way, things like Khan being a white British guy don't end up being an issue down the line.

I think casting a white Khan had issues that went well beyond continuity concerns.

 

[jaime]

Me too, although I can understand why they felt they needed to appease the purists by saying "Look, really, this is a direct continuation of the 'real' universe and it's only different because of time travel." Although they were overoptimistic in that, because the purists just rejected the idea that it was a continuation anyway, or complained about the things that "should" be the same but weren't.




I think casting a white Khan had issues that went well beyond continuity concerns.

Was that when they cast white Ricardo Montalban or white Benedict Cumberbatch? (this is the one argument in Trek that is ridiculous in my opinion so I promise not to get involved in a lengthy debate on it. Starfleet Cadets honour.)

 

[Dayton Ward]

Well, I was focusing not so much on the casting as how the character shifts from one supposedly born in India to a British guy...you know, in a timeline that supposedly diverges 250 or so years after he's born.

That Butterfly Effect is something else, ain't it?

 

[hbquikcomjamesl]

^ Well, a little over five decades ago, a lone white journalist, wanting to better understand racism from a black point of view, used drugs and dyes to pass as an African American for a six-week journey through the South. (And yes, I've read John Howard Griffin's Black Like Me; I think it should be required reading.)

If John Griffin could alter his appearance with only the help of a dermatologist, and Abramsverse Section 31 is attempting (unsuccessfully) to pull Abramsverse Khan Singh's strings, certainly they could do a much more thorough job of it with Khan.

 

[Idran]

I think that's literally what the comics did, yeah.

 

[Jinn]

If John Griffin could alter his appearance with only the help of a dermatologist, and Abramsverse Section 31 is attempting (unsuccessfully) to pull Abramsverse Khan Singh's strings, certainly they could do a much more thorough job of it with Khan.

Yeah, but why?
I think it is best to see all of the visual changes as "artistic" choices and not as relevant for continuity.

 

[Greg Cox]

Yeah, but why?
I think it is best to see all of the visual changes as "artistic" choices and not as relevant for continuity.

Exactly. Sometimes changes in art direction and casting are just that.

Not everything needs an "in-universe" explanation.

 

[Dayton Ward]

Yeah. To what end? They're worried somebody will recognize him on the street?

 

[hbquikcomjamesl]

Since when has Section 31 needed a legitimate reason to do anything?

 

[Jinn]

Since when has Section 31 needed a legitimate reason to do anything?

November 3rd 2143, however I'm not entirely sure. But seriously why would they do something like this without a reason. I think Christopher or Idran mentioned once that the bigger a conspiracy/secret organization gets the shorter its lifspan becomes. I see no reason to call any sort of attention at yourself by involving an additional medic and even if you would take that risk (or already have a doctor involved) it just wouldn't serve a purpose.

 

[jaime]

Yeah. To what end? They're worried somebody will recognize him on the street?

Marla McGivers or whatever the lady's name was did in TOS

 

[Jinn]

Marla McGivers or whatever the lady's name was did in TOS

However Khan wasn't supposed to run around free, just to help Section 31 in doing... whatever they were doing with him.. Probably something with weapons.

 

[Dayton Ward]

We don't really know if McGivers recognized him or researched him once she got back to the Enterprise. The latter seems likely, as she didn't appear to recognize him on the Botany Bay or even during that first scene in sickbay.

 

[Jinn]

This seems rather unlikely to me as the Eugenic Wars happened ~2.5 centuries before STID and Space Seed. I wouldn't recognize any important person from the 18th century (though I'm not a historian)