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Spoilers Captain America: Civil War - Grading & Discussion

Grade the movie...


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As far as movie audiences were concerned Hydra was destroyed, mostly, in The Winter Soldier. And in Ultron the Avengers were shown mopping up, essentially, before moving on to bigger threads.
If this Cap movie had been about Hydra again, it night have felt a bit pointless and a retread.
About the only thing Hydra related that would have been good was if Red Skull actually returned.
 
HYDRA was destroyed in "The Winter Soldier"? That doesn't make any sense to me, since one of the movie's post-credit scenes, along with "ANT-MAN", that the organization still exists. By the way, what happened to Mitchell Carson, who had stolen Darren Cross' Yellowjacket formula?



Some of the best stuff from the MCU
 
As far as movie audiences were concerned Hydra was destroyed, mostly, in The Winter Soldier. And in Ultron the Avengers were shown mopping up, essentially, before moving on to bigger threads.
Well, they have already turned up again in the movies since, namely in Ant-Man.

If this Cap movie had been about Hydra again, it night have felt a bit pointless and a retread.
About the only thing Hydra related that would have been good was if Red Skull actually returned.
This I completely agree with. I love the revelations we got about HYDRA's true nature and origins on Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. this season (and come on @LJones41, don't tell me you actually bought that the scene you mention above will truly prove to be the final and lasting end of them—how does their motto go again?) but we've already seen Cap fight them plenty in his movies.
 
The movie started with Tony's parents getting killed.
Why do you seem to keep ignoring that this is something which was set up in The Winter Soldier and practically cried out to be followed up on? Given that, would a full Avengers film really be so much more appropriate a venue in which to do so?

Steve's romance with Sharon Carter was rushed
Their romance has barely even begun by the end of Civil War, and had also already been largely set up by the end of The Winter Soldier. That's not exactly what I would call "rushed." Besides, wasn't it obvious that Steve's heart really belonged to Peggy, and he couldn't very well take up with someone new (notwithstanding and even perhaps especially considering the connection between them) until she was well and truly out of the picture? And would Steve's love life have made for a particularly interesting focus in this or any other movie anyway?

the Sokovia Accords story line and Tony's man pain made it impossible for the screenwriters to do justice to it.
For my part, I wouldn't have found it as satisfying for them to eschew picking up the pieces where Age Of Ultron left them in favor of some unrelated "solo" caper. Would devoting the whole picture to battling Rumlow and some goons alongside only Sam and Bucky have made for a more distinctive and engaging story? (Not that this would be the only potential alternative to what we got, but just for instance.)

Sam and Bucky's relationship was never explored. Instead, it was presented in a series of comedy routines in which they are mildly hostile toward one another.
I found the sibling rivalry between Cap's former sidekick and his current one rather appropriate and endearing. And let's not pretend as if this is the last of these characters we'll see and there won't be further opportunities to explore their relationships in greater depth down the line. (Whereas, on the other hand, I'd wager there's less chance of us getting further Iron Man solo movies.)

The movie spent 10 to 15 minutes showing how Tony recruited Peter Parker (who really had no business being in this movie) for Team Iron Man, yet it failed to explain or show why Scott Laing and Clint Barton had decided to side with Steve.
As I've said, I concur that the undue focus on Peter was ungainly, but as to the second point, does it really require all that much explanation why those characters would side with Team Cap? Given Lang and Barton's family situations and pasts as seen in previous films, isn't it obvious they'd value their anonymity and privacy, and not want their loved ones exposed to the scrutiny and vagaries of governmental bureaucracy, nor their autonomy in protecting and defending them hindered by its overreach? Maybe that could have been explicated a bit more, sure, but it's not as if the dots are too hard to connect there as it is.

Zemo's whole plot was all about Tony finding out that Bucky had killed his parents. Again, it all became about Tony.
Because Tony's nature is to always make it all about Tony! Zemo undoubtedly understood this and counted on it, exploiting that well-established character flaw to play him against Cap.

I have now developed contempt toward Marvel and pure dislike toward Downey Jr.'s Iron Man.
While I do think you're overreacting a bit, I don't think it was intended that you should like him all that much in this story. While I found his motivations quite understandable, and empathize with him, his role is precisely that of the interloper you accuse him of being, and is overall portrayed as such. Hey Tony, butt out, don't tread on me! Your reaction, while extreme (and bordering on the absurd with the "contempt for Marvel" bit), is not entirely out of line with the thrust of the drama here, as I see it.
 
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Stark in the comics became Dickishly the same... He was being the bad guy for necessary reasons to save the world. Taking one for the team.

(In the comics at least)

Stark talked to Charles Xavier enough to know the stories about the future worlds where the Sentinels took over, putting all powered persons (not just mutants) into concentration camps and massgraves... Actually did we ever see the life style pure Humans were rewarded by the Sentinels? New York was probably turned into a prison (wink) for gene joke scum and the rest of America "may" have been like the Garden of Eden reborn.

Oh. The Illuminati. Stark bowing before the senate and the president in the comics and the movies is a little rough if Stark and the Illumaniti speak for Earth on the Galactic Stage, as if they were the masters of our planet.

(Edit)

I'm reading civil war II #1.

New Guy: "Wow, Tony Stark!"

Spider-Man "Yes, it's exciting. Then you get over it."
 
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Let me get this straight . . . it was okay for Marvel to close the HYDRA arc with the bad and lazy writing found in "AGENTS OF SHIELD", because the impatient fanboys wanted the company to quickly move on to satisfy their desire for instant gratification, instead of allowing the arc to end on a well written note in a Captain America film. No wonder culture is going down the drain.
 
I don't there was really that much more to do with Hydra. I'm glad they've been dealt with and we're moving on to other things.
We already saw the Avengers going after Hydra in AoU, and we got two seasons with them in AoS, that's plenty of material for them.
The big threads that were left for Cap were Bucky and Rumlow and both were dealt with in CW.
By the end of AoU the Avengers were solidly set up as a team,so I think it would have been a little hard to buy them not being involved in the next solo movie.
After this, and now with it confirmed that the Hulk is going to be in Thor: Ragnarok, I think the days of the truly solo movies for the original Avengers is probably pretty much over.
 
Let me get this straight . . . it was okay for Marvel to close the HYDRA arc with the bad and lazy writing found in "AGENTS OF SHIELD"
The HYDRA arc had already been "closed" and then re-opened several times over in both the films and the show, in case you hadn't noticed. And within the context of that particular season of S.H.I.E.L.D., what they were actually doing is shifting focus onto the real and far greater threat that ultimately lay behind HYDRA's entire raison d'être in the first place, namely Hive. If anything, the arc closed with his defeat, although I fully expect there's some further HYDRA faction seeking to scoop his remains out of orbit or the corpses he left behind in his wake at this very moment, as we speak...
 
The Mighty Monkey of Mim said:
Your reaction, while extreme (and bordering on the absurd with the "contempt for Marvel" bit), is not entirely out of line with the thrust of the drama here, as I see it.
Oh, dear gods, I hated Tony Stark with a firey passion after the Civil War comic. :lol: They practically turned him into a Dr. Doom type super-villain there. Hell, the only reasons I saw the first Iron Man in the theaters after the Civil War comic were the amazing reviews, and the coin toss came up "heads" ("Tails" would have been Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull).

I felt they did a much better job presenting the case for both sides and making both sides sympathetic in the movie.
 
Oh, dear gods, I hated Tony Stark with a firey passion after the Civil War comic. :lol: They practically turned him into a Dr. Doom type super-villain there. Hell, the only reasons I saw the first Iron Man in the theaters after the Civil War comic were the amazing reviews, and the coin toss came up "heads" ("Tails" would have been Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull).

I felt they did a much better job presenting the case for both sides and making both sides sympathetic in the movie.

I love the movie, but I don't even compare it to the comic. The universes are different enough that the comic version wouldn't even really have fit anyway. When it comes to what version I liked better, I have to go with the comics (Civil War is one of my favorite comics, and second only to Crisis on Infinite Earths as best event comic ever in my opinion). Not every fight needs to have both sides be right. Iron Man was an a-hole in the Civil War comic. He believed he was right, and then did horrible things to support what he wanted. He is pretty much the villain of the comic, which is fine. Sometimes events happen where one side is a lot less sympathetic then the other, even if the bad side used to be the good guys, too.

I was on Cap's side in both the movie and the comic, but Iron man was obviously more reasonable (or at least less evil) in the movie. I liked both approaches, and honestly both fit with the versions of Tony Stark they were dealing with. The comic version becoming basically a villain fit how arrogant Stark was and made sense as the end result of the few years of Stark doing things like forming the "Illuminauti". He thought he knew what was best for everyone, and his actions in the Civil War comic were pretty much the result of that. In the movie, his reactions also fit the things that happened to him in the MCU. Its really not very helpful to compare the comic and movie. They did different things based on completely different events.
 
Au contraire. Power dynamics are *nothing but* shades of grey. Nobody who seeks, acquires or exercises power worth speaking of does so without unforeseen consequences, regardless of their motivations or ideology. By it's very definition, power is the ability to affect people and things on a large scale. The larger the scale, the less control you can possibly have on all of the repercussions, big and small.

But that lacks shades of grey at its foundation--those seeking to gain and use power only care about consequences to the extent that it does not impede their continuing goals, but to that larger goal--control--they are rarely--if ever--truly concerned witheffect on those outside of their benefit & concern. Its a black and white, hardline goal, hence the expected resistance to such a action or ideology on the part of the victims.

A role reversal is exactly what has occurred in this movie, I think quite deliberately. Tony up to now has been a character who rebels against authority (which on some level represents his resentment toward his father) but now under the weight of responsibility for the resulting consequences craves it. Daddy, I've been a naughty boy, fix it for me, tell me what to do! Cap has conversely been the willing agent of authority, but having repeatedly found his trust in that authority to be misplaced, now rebels against it.

...and as a former agent of government authority, he would know--on an intimate level Stark cannot comprehend--how authority can and has abused its powers for unjustified motivations--one of his reasons to reject the Accords.
 
Iron Man was kind of jobbed in that fight. He can match hands with Thor, Whiplash and Iron Monger, but can't overpower Bucky and Captain America.
 
I think an Avengers movie could not have spent so much time on the subject of Bucky, it had to be a Cap movie. But it's there's clearly overlap, but isn't that how it should be, as Cap was an Avenger so much?

Yes, and in Avengers publishing history, many stories focused on Cap, or crossed over with Cap stories from other titles. He's the central Avenger despite not being (in the comics) one of the original members.

He only kept up with Thor because Thor inadvertently supercharged his armor. And it's not as if Bucky and Cap are ordinary human beings.

True--when you see the kind of things Cap and Bucky do in the films, you can conclude that they are not average anything.
 
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