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Spoilers Captain America: Civil War - Grading & Discussion

Grade the movie...


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Anyone arguing that Tony shouldn't have behaved so emotionally in that last fight, clearly haven't been paying attention to any of his character progression since 'Iron Man 2'. The guy is a psychological garbage fire. Dealing with things in a less than healthy or rational way is one of his key character traits.

Also, anyone arguing that either Tony or Steve were "right" or "wrong" in the positions they took have entirely missed the point. There was no right or wrong. The whole movie was a no-win scenario. A Xanatos Gambit set up by the antagonist (I don't class him as a villain per see) knowing full well that their fundamentally differing outlooks would tear them apart. All he did was apply a little leverage.
One can argue the legal minutia until you're blue in the face, but it's all irrelevant. Half the point of the plot is that superheroes are a fundamentally flawed concept that would be terrifyingly dangerous if applied to the real world (see: 'Watchmen' and/or 'Dune'.) Doesn't matter if they are vigilantes or government agents. It's not going to end well for the people at large either way.
 
You must have missed Tony's introductory scene in the movie where he's using his soft-holodeck technology to demonstrate a process where people can better process emotions and struggles by reliving past events they struggle over. The death of his parents has been a struggle for tony for the last 25 years probably mostly due to the mystery and suddenness of their deaths. So it's not like his parents died due to disease or natural causes suddenly overnight they were ripped away from him in a car accident under mysterious circumstances. So no matter how much time has passed that's something any person is going to deal with particularly since it's implied he wasn't able to give a proper goodbye to his parents or make amends with his father on some level.
Not to mention the fact that iron Man 2 was thematically almost entirely about Tony's unresolved issues about his father.
 
In order for the exercise of executive power to be legitimate, it is necessary for it to be carried out by agents of the democratic state. Yet it is not sufficient that it be carried out by agents of the democratic state, because said agents may be engaging in human rights violations/civil rights and liberties violations/etc (what I'll lump in under the term "abuse").

We're talking about the MCU--and within that universe, the World Security Council was not censured / punished for launching a nuclear missile at Manhattan. The reason--the very reason for the analysis of which side is right about the Accords is what I've said all along: it should be rejected due to the inherent hypocrisy of "do as I say, not as I do," which is exemplified by the guilt-free actions of the WSC, and we can rationally conclude--the potential of any UN member nation. As the most egregious example of a group authorizing mass, deadly action without being censured / punished renders any action against the Avengers as prejudicial (and hollow) in origin. The UN--or no governing body can selectively create controls over certain individuals or groups, yet ignore others (which it does, but you get the point).

That is what the Accords represent in the MCU, inspiring any rational resistance to it


Just as, in order to be in Ohio, it is necessary that you be located in the United States but not sufficient that you be in the United States, it is necessary that the executive power be exercised by the democratic state in order to be legitimate but it is not sufficient that it be carried out by the democratic state in order to be so.

The problem is, Cap's argument denies the necessary condition.

Again, the nature of the Accords makes it creation hypocritical and prejudicial, which is soused with the tools of corruption.

I'm evaluating that scene from an out-universe perspective, not an in-universe perspective.

...which is patently inapplicable to the characters and situations presented in the films.

Your...

And, yes, it bothers me very much that Cap is depicted as arguing that he should not be regulated after his actions lead to the deaths of innocent black people. Hard for that not to in the age of Ferguson. I don't think Cap is racist -- but I think that writing decision carries unfortunate implications the writers did not intend.

That's creating a situation that does not exist for audiences by treating the CA:CW Lagos sequence as an isolated situation for Cap, and misapplying it to real world situation bearing no resemblance to Ferguson, etc. One cannot watch the film and edit overall intent (i.e. reactions to the deaths caused by the heroes) unless you have a tendency to frame all situations--no matter how inapplicable--to fit a preexisting narrative.


In other words -- the Civil Rights Movement was not about demonstrating the will of the people as a whole, but about demonstrating the power of an oppressed segment of the people to disrupt the status quo until they were no longer oppressed.

The movement most assuredly included a demonstration of the will of the people after a century of facing both social & political brick walls using (among many arguments) that "people want things the way they are--there's no need to change anything," The first fight was on the social, human level, not a legal one; the belief that if the people recognize and want change, then change it must--which then (naturally) had to progress to the legal level.


Yes, the history of governmental abuses is a well-established fact. But this fact is not relevant to the discussion.

It is the discussion, as it is evidence relevant to the rejection of the film's Accords--in reference to the idea/threat of the aforementioned government corruption / untrustworthiness (and prejudicial where super-beings are concerned), which moved Cap to reach a logical, history based conclusion regarding the danger posed by the Accords.


No, in favor of a system of democratic accountability in carrying out the primary duty of a government (to regulate the infliction of organized violence) rather than the personal whim of an unaccountable man putting himself above the law.

...or unaccountable government operatives who kick law aside when it suits their agenda for assassinations (domestic and abroad), erecting puppet governments, wars (including their "collateral damage" that goes along with it), etc.

Obviously such an act on the WSC's part would have been completely illegitimate, and obviously the members of the WSC who order that attack should have been charged with war crimes.

...the point is that they were not. The missile was launched, so even without it reaching its target, the intent and action was carried out. That bears responsibility that no one seeking to control a few costumed individuals even care to recognize. If they (e.g. the UN members behind the Accords, or any other power, for that matter) conveniently ignore that, then one can easily conclude a bias--a corruption that seeks to control (illogically) one form of an "unaccountable" threat, but not another.[/quote]
 
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Also, anyone arguing that either Tony or Steve were "right" or "wrong" in the positions they took have entirely missed the point. There was no right or wrong. The whole movie was a no-win scenario. A Xanatos Gambit set up by the antagonist (I don't class him as a villain per see) knowing full well that their fundamentally differing outlooks would tear them apart. All he did was apply a little leverage.

Interesting take, but few things reside in shades of grey where power (who has it, seeks it, or has a desire to take it form another) is concerned.
 
They're not spoilers, other than that Batman and Superman fight. Which is given away by the title, and premise, of the movie.
I guess I'll trust those who've seen it, but this in particular sounded quite spoiler-ish to me:
Yeah, except for the part where Lex Luthor specifically told him that he was watching him and would kill his mother if he saw that he wasn't fighting and trying to kill Batman. Supes had one shot and it didn't work.
 
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Right, it's been an underpinning of his character from the beginning, with him seeking out surrogate parental figures such as Obadiah and Pepper (and Ross in this one). I see it as very tied to his tendency to "act out" as if he wants someone to send him to his room, and his attention-seeking in general. Really, I thought it was quite appropriate and dramatically satisfying that both Stark and Cap have arrived at opposing views here, not only with respect to each other but also with respect to where they each started out: Stark as a private individual eschewing authority as a lone actor, and Cap as a tool of the government. Because they've each inhabited and operated in those modes and had numerous opportunities to witness what the resulting fallout and negative consequences to others can be, this role reversal seems like a natural and organic progression for both.
 
For me, what really make's Tony's emotional mania in the final act believable is for the majority of the film, he's being the rational one for a change and Cap is being the emotional one. Or at least that's what he's trying to do, but in reality the whole time his emotions are boiling right beneath the surface.
Just look at how he act in the airport scene. It's clear he's almost at his wits end with. He's practically pleading with Steve to see sense.

Right, it's been an underpinning of his character from the beginning, with him seeking out surrogate parental figures such as Obadiah and Pepper (and Ross in this one). I see it as very tied to his tendency to "act out" as if he wants someone to send him to his room, and his attention-seeking in general. Really, I thought it was quite appropriate and dramatically satisfying that both Stark and Cap have arrived at opposing views here, not only with respect to each other but also with respect to where they each started out: Stark as a private individual eschewing authority as a lone actor, and Cap as a tool of the government. Because they've each inhabited and operated in those modes and had numerous opportunities to witness what the resulting fallout and negative consequences to others can be, this role reversal seems like a natural and organic progression for both.
Not sure where you got the idea that Obadiah, Pepper and Ross were "surrogate parental figures". Not even remotely. Ross least of all.
Interesting take, but few things reside in shades of grey where power (who has it, seeks it, or has a desire to take it form another) is concerned.
Au contraire. Power dynamics are *nothing but* shades of grey. Nobody who seeks, acquires or exercises power worth speaking of does so without unforeseen consequences, regardless of their motivations or ideology. By it's very definition, power is the ability to affect people and things on a large scale. The larger the scale, the less control you can possibly have on all of the repercussions, big and small.
 
Right, it's been an underpinning of his character from the beginning, with him seeking out surrogate parental figures such as Obadiah and Pepper (and Ross in this one). I see it as very tied to his tendency to "act out" as if he wants someone to send him to his room, and his attention-seeking in general. Really, I thought it was quite appropriate and dramatically satisfying that both Stark and Cap have arrived at opposing views here, not only with respect to each other but also with respect to where they each started out: Stark as a private individual eschewing authority as a lone actor, and Cap as a tool of the government. Because they've each inhabited and operated in those modes and had numerous opportunities to witness what the resulting fallout and negative consequences to others can be, this role reversal seems like a natural and organic progression for both.
Not sure where you got the idea that Obadiah, Pepper and Ross were "surrogate parental figures". Not even remotely. Ross least of all.
I can see Obadiah, considering his position in Stark Industries immediately after Howard's death, but I agree Pepper and Ross aren't even remotely "surrogate parental figures." Certainly not Pepper because that's an Oedpius Complex that doesn't exist here.
 
I can see Obadiah, considering his position in Stark Industries immediately after Howard's death, but I agree Pepper and Ross aren't even remotely "surrogate parental figures." Certainly not Pepper because that's an Oedpius Complex that doesn't exist here.

Obadiah probably wished Tony saw him as a surrogate father, as it would have been easier to control him. As it stood, the best he could do was handle him. For Tony's part, Obadiah was just the guy who did the boring business stuff for him. There was some obviously misplaced trust there, but nothing deeper than that.

Ross was only ever an acquaintance from his days as a weapons manufacturer, though one he clearly enjoyed winding up. For his part, Ross tolerated Tony because he pretty much has to.

And if Pepper was ever a surrogate anything, it was a surrogate babysitter.
 
Not sure where you got the idea that Obadiah, Pepper and Ross were "surrogate parental figures". Not even remotely. Ross least of all.
I can see Obadiah, considering his position in Stark Industries immediately after Howard's death, but I agree Pepper and Ross aren't even remotely "surrogate parental figures." Certainly not Pepper because that's an Oedpius Complex that doesn't exist here.
Oh come on. I think you need to go watch Iron Man again.

It's obvious that Obadiah has set himself up as Tony's cool replacement dad at he outset of IM, an elder male figure in whom Stark confides and trusts (misplacedly, as it later turns out). And virtually every other line they say to each other concerns Howard and how Tony never got to say goodbye to him, and what Obadiah thinks of how Tony's holding up the family legacy, and so forth. Not to even mention all the familiar body language and posturing Bridges brings into it in his performance.

Pepper is presented as his female caretaker who alternately chides, frets over, and enables him in every way short of changing his diaper. She is absolutely his surrogate mom, the female figure he connects with and who understands him in a way above and beyond others. It's even an element of their obvious attraction that they both think it a bit "weird" at first. (And everyone has an Oedipus complex to one extent or another, it's not a conscious thing, but a sub/unconscious one, it's part of normal development and often resolves itself before one reaches adulthood; it is a basic psychological underpinning of how we learn sexual roles and look for mates.) Not to mention how Maria is cast to resemble Pepper in Civil War and how Tony's introductory scene whose main point is to show Tony struggling to resolve his emotions over the loss of his mother segues directly into dealing with the same issue vis-à-vis Pepper.

In contrast to the gentler doting father image Obadiah falsely projected, Ross is the stern disciplinarian paternal figure to whom Tony attaches and submits himself when he feels he needs to be brought to task. A central element of Ross' character is that he sees himself as seeking to protect the innocent from those perceived as a threat. In The Incredible Hulk this specifically manifested itself as him seeking to protect his actual child from Banner. (As well as generally—no pun intended—in his seeking to develop super soldier weapons that he could command.) In this movie we find Stark in a position where what Ross offers is attractive to him, although by the end of it he comes to more or less the same realization that Betty did, that it's really no fun at all being controlled and manipulated, having the old man constantly watching you like a hawk, even if it's ostensibly with your own good in mind.
 
As I said, Obadiah may have wished Tony saw him as a father figure and certainly tried to act like that may have been the case, but it was all very shallow and all on Obadiah's side. Tony didn't treat him all that differently than he did Pepper, Happy and Rhodey. In Tony's eye Obadiah was part of *his* entourage, not the other way around.

LOL, and a babysitter is not a surrogate parental figure? That's literally what it is!
No, a babysitter is what parents get to watch their kids for them while they're out, to make sure they don't electrocute themselves or set fire to the cat. You can't babysit your own children, because then it's just called "parenting" and it has a much broader set of responsibilities. You're basically comparing a seat-belt to the whole car.
 
Ross and Stark's previous encounters (The Incredible Hulk/"The Consultant" one-shot, "Iron Man 2: Public Identity" MCU comic) make it pretty clear that they have never really liked each other very much. I really doubt that there are any kind of familial feeling there at all for either one of them. If anything, after TIH/The Consultant, it would be a pretty awkward reversal for Tony to have the Avengers under Ross' thumb, considering Stark was once specifically sent to sour Ross on the idea.
 
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I get something of an uncle vibe from the Stane/Stark relationship in IM, but not a daddy one.
 
Tony didn't treat him all that differently than he did Pepper, Happy and Rhodey. In Tony's eye Obadiah was part of *his* entourage
Who are ALL his adopted "family," replacing the one he lost, or felt he never had.


No, a babysitter is what parents get to watch their kids for them while they're out
One who cares for/looks after/supervises a child in the absence of the actual parent(s) is the very definition of a surrogate parental figure.

Ross and Stark's previous encounters (The Incredible Hulk/"The Consultant" one-shot, "Iron Man 2: Public Identity" MCU comic) make it pretty clear that they have never really liked each other very much.
One doesn't have to like someone for that person to on some psychological level represent a parental authority figure. Heck, Tony never even liked Howard that much.

If anything, after TIH/The Consultant, it would be a pretty awkward reversal for Tony to have the Avengers under Ross' thumb, considering Stark was once specifically sent to sour Ross on the idea.
A role reversal is exactly what has occurred in this movie, I think quite deliberately. Tony up to now has been a character who rebels against authority (which on some level represents his resentment toward his father) but now under the weight of responsibility for the resulting consequences craves it. Daddy, I've been a naughty boy, fix it for me, tell me what to do! Cap has conversely been the willing agent of authority, but having repeatedly found his trust in that authority to be misplaced, now rebels against it.
 
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I get something of an uncle vibe from the Stane/Stark relationship in IM, but not a daddy one.

That's probably the closest analogy one could make, though even that much is a stretch.

Who are ALL his adopted "family," replacing the one he lost, or felt he never had.

That would presuppose he was emotionally and psychologically equipped to know what it was to have a family in the first place. Part of his problem is that he can't relate to people, so he keeps them at arms length, takes them for granted and affects a very breezy attitude.
Watch Iron Man again. Pre-cave Tony treats everyone the same, from Stane to Rhodes, even his one-night stands.

One who cares for/looks after/supervises a child in the absence of the actual parent(s) is the very definition of a surrogate parental figure.

It's really not. Pepper was a personal assistant first. It was her job to pick up after him. You're mistaking a physical role for an emotional one.

A parental figure is someone who's approval you crave. Who's advice you seek. Who you turn to for emotional support and wisdom.
Rupert Giles to Buffy, Dumbledore to Harry Potter, Han Solo to Rey, Ripley to Newt, the T-800 to John Conner, Walter White to Jessie, Alfred to Bruce Wayne, Bobby to Sam and Dean, Anderson to Commander Shepard. These are all examples of parent substitutes. Pepper, Obadiah and most assuredly Ross simply don't fit the profile.

If you want Marvel examples then look at Yondu in Guardians of the Galaxy. That's a father substitute. A dead beat father substitute for a dead beat father. Also Coulson and May to Daisy. And, it seems somewhat ironically: Tony Stark to Peter Parker.

Pepper, Happy and Rhodey are just his (only) friends. If you want to know who Tony really considers his surrogate family, it's 'Dum-E' and 'U'. He keeps them despite them being obsolete. He tolerates them despite them being an active hindrance. They're the only thing he took from his home when it was gone.
 
in the Agents of SHIELD thread, many, many people complain that HYDRA is still in play, and still being villainous. In the Civil War thread, people complain that HYDRA is off the table, and not being villainous. Nobody wins. Except Zemo, obviously.


I never had a problem with HYDRA being the main villains for Coulson and his team, along with Steve Rogers. The last two Captain America movies featured Steve's conflict with HYDRA. I saw no reason why they could have did the third film in the same manner. They could have rounded off a HYDRA trilogy for his character and saved the Civil War story arc for an Avengers film, which I believe is where it belonged.

As for Zemo, his plan isn't actually convoluted at all, if you really look at it. And it doesn't so much rely on coincidences as it does take advantage of them.

Considering that the Avengers haven't really been a whole team since "AGE OF ULTRON", I don't see what was the point of Zemo's plan. Not even Rhodey and Vision were in Nigeria with the rest of them.
 
That would presuppose he was emotionally and psychologically equipped to know what it was to have a family in the first place. Part of his problem is that he can't relate to people, so he keeps them at arms length, takes them for granted and affects a very breezy attitude.
Yes indeed, and to paraphrase Wanda, where do you suppose he gets that from? Could it perhaps have anything at all to do with unresolved emotional issues surrounding his relationships with his parents, compounded by their abrupt exit off this mortal coil—again, no pun intended—which robbed him of the opportunity to resolve them directly, thus leading him to project (or deflect) these emotions elsewhere? Personally, I think it quite possible and plausible.

As I see it, this very parental absence (which preexisted his parents' actual death, though that event made it all the more concrete and traumatic and permanent) underlies Tony's tendency toward tacit reliance on the diligent care and indulgence of others while simultaneously projecting a buffer of casual indifference, determined flippancy, and even outright patronizing disdain toward those who provide it. He resents his parents for being absent, resents himself for his need of them, and resents others for taking their place in fulfilling that need.

Although Tony comes to realize this of himself little by little (and in Pepper's case, it would seem from Civil War to have been too little, and too late, and too bad, as he seemed to be trying pretty hard there in IM3) as the films go on, it remains an unresolved issue for him. His attempts to resolve it also manifest themselves in his overcompensating by trying to take into his own hands matters which transcend his capacity to deal with them alone, to bite off more than he can chew. Ultron was perhaps the, ahem, ultimate example of that.

Watch Iron Man again.
I have done just recently, after having seen Civil War, and before having reviewed the other films as well.

Pre-cave Tony treats everyone the same, from Stane to Rhodes, even his one-night stands.
But surely you're not saying you actually believe Tony feels nothing more for them and Pepper and Happy than he does for any of his one-night stands, or others? That's plainly not the case. And they certainly don't treat him the same as they'd treat anyone else, either.

I think Obadiah is very much set up as a sort of dark reflection of Tony's father. He's truly the amoral "iron-monger," the uncaring and underhandedly profiteering "Merchant of Death" that Christine Everhart accuses Tony himself of being at the outset of the film, and which Tony underneath his initially expressed acceptance and even embrace of such an identity fears he has become. His ordeal in the cave (where Yinsen also assumes the role of a surrogate parental figure to him, and a much more positive one) confronts him with the realization of this fear, and upon his return he seeks to reject that aspect of himself. On a conscious level this rejection is due to moral concern for those he and his father before him have hurt in the course of their exploits, but on a more subconscious emotional one it is also a rejection of his identification with his father himself.

Rhodey acts in a brotherly role toward him, and a brother too can be a stand-in for parental authority, albeit one perhaps less effectual, as indeed he certainly seems to be in influencing and mitigating Tony's defiance of the authority he represents in the first two films, namely the U.S. military.

It's really not. Pepper was a personal assistant first. It was her job to pick up after him. You're mistaking a physical role for an emotional one.
The first person whose role one generally identifies as picking up after one is one's mother, and whatever figure stands in for that role in the absence of an actual mother is prone to being identified as a maternal figure in the eyes of one seeking such a connection. The emotional role follows from the physical role. (Of course, I do not suggest that picking up after one generally remains the sole role of a mother in successfully realized adulthood. Yet, on an emotional level, it might very well remain a role associated with motherhood that one might seek fulfillment of by someone else in the absence of one's mother, say for example due to her sudden death in a car crash-cum-assassination.)

A parental figure is someone who's approval you crave. Who's advice you seek. Who you turn to for emotional support and wisdom.
Rupert Giles to Buffy, Dumbledore to Harry Potter, Han Solo to Rey, Ripley to Newt, the T-800 to John Conner, Walter White to Jessie, Alfred to Bruce Wayne, Bobby to Sam and Dean, Anderson to Commander Shepard. These are all examples of parent substitutes. Pepper, Obadiah and most assuredly Ross simply don't fit the profile.
Those emboldened above are the ones I can claim enough familiarity with to say that they do indeed represent fine examples of positive and healthy surrogate parental relationships. But that is not to say that there aren't any number of negative and dysfunctional ones that can carry no less emotional weight—and perhaps in cases yet more—for a given individual. Palpatine to Anakin would be one that comes immediately to mind.

If you want Marvel examples then look at Yondu in Guardians of the Galaxy. That's a father substitute. A dead beat father substitute for a dead beat father. Also Coulson and May to Daisy. And, it seems somewhat ironically: Tony Stark to Peter Parker.
And John Garrett to Grant Ward would be another.

If Yondu is "a dead beat father substitute for a dead beat father," then why can't Obadiah be a substitute for a father who (in the most uncharitable view, before Tony learned the whole truth about Howard, or at least that there was more to the story) profited by war and destruction and death, duplicitously stole designs from other inventors, "a butcher and a thief" as Vanko put it, who cared for no one? Sure, Tony didn't necessarily consciously know Stane was as bad as all that before he turned on him...and yet that's exactly what he turned out to be.

If you want to know who Tony really considers his surrogate family, it's 'Dum-E' and 'U'. He keeps them despite them being obsolete. He tolerates them despite them being an active hindrance. They're the only thing he took from his home when it was gone.
I completely agree he has such an attachment to them, but if anything would they not represent more his children, as might his suits and the Iron Legion and quite explicitly Ultron?
 
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