Ground Forces in Star Trek

[Shamrock Holmes]

Fair enough, still think that they shouldn't be called that, Federation Marine Corps would actually be preferable (there is actually a Federation Navy they could have borrowed them from), I'd also suspect it's mostly a Reserve Force, specifically intended for the kind of advance planned, high-risk military strikes at company level and above like Operation Retrieve, rather than "normal business" deploying off starships at sort notice which would IMO be handled by Special Operations units like the hypothesised SORT or TACT/CART teams discussed above.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Personally I think 'Starfleet Marine Corps' sounds better. I'm glad that's the one they used.

And it fits with Kirk's description (in TOS) that Starfleet is a combined service. It simply has both Naval and Marine subcommands - nothing wrong with that, that I can see. In fact I remember Gene R. himself once suggesting that there was a platoon of Starfleet Marines serving on the Enterprise in TOS although obviously we never got to see them.

(Which brings to mind the question, what kind of uniforms did Starfleet Marines wear in TOS' time. I like to think they wore the same uniform everyone else did, but in black. I mean, come on. A black TOS uniform, how cool is that? )

 

[Sgt_G]

Personally I think 'Starfleet Marine Corps' sounds better.

This. And just try to sing each name as a marching / running cadence. So far, nothing beats "Star Fleet Marine Corps".

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Personally I think 'Starfleet Marine Corps' sounds better. I'm glad that's the one they used.

And it fits with Kirk's description (in TOS) that Starfleet is a combined service. It simply has both Naval and Marine subcommands - nothing wrong with that, that I can see. In fact I remember Gene R. himself once suggesting that there was a platoon of Starfleet Marines serving on the Enterprise in TOS although obviously we never got to see them.

(Which brings to mind the question, what kind of uniforms did Starfleet Marines wear in TOS' time. I like to think they wore the same uniform everyone else did, but in black. I mean, come on. A black TOS uniform, how cool is that? )

Maybe I'm a bit weird, but when I think "combined service" I think single chain-of-command, same ranks etc. So the regular and submarine Navies, the Naval Air Arm (?), the SEALs and the Seebees would be a "combined service". The marines, especially in the US where the head of the Corps is the same rank as the head of the "big three" come off as a combined service mostly politically (they're both part of the same Department, and share some of their staff corps), not operationally.

Black or dark green seems to be the usual assumption. Of the two, black sorta makes sense (tho I'd favour it as a "any department combat option" personally. For a colored top, I'd say red (red tunics and dark trousers are historically common for US/UK military at least) or brown (like the MACO undershirts) if you want to keep the traditional 'Fleet' colors (dark green IMO makes more sense as the non-Medical Sciences (esp Stellar Sciences) color as it combines yellow (command/deck) and Sciences (blue).

 

[TwoJakes]

a Starfleet Lieutenant apparently outranks a MACO major

The MACO's weren't a part of the Enterprise's command structure, so Reed could give orders to Hayes because Reed was part of Archer's command. Reed was acting using Archer's authority over Hayes

rather than the marines (which belong in/near the sea

Starfleet doesn't do things on stars, why do you think Marines only do things on water?

an officer that highly ranked would surely have at least a Lieutenant serving as his second in command.

My take is that given the importance of the mission Major Hayes replaced the platoon's usual lieutenant. There was a limit to how many MACO's could be added to the Enterprise's complement of people, so the lieuteneant was left on Earth.

black or dark green seems to be the usual assumption.

Khaki.

 

[somebuddyX]

I got the idea the Starfleet security were basically military police, so maybe Starfleet also has a division that's more infantry like.

During ENT, I never got the impression that the MACO's were a part of the then Starfleet, but were detached half platoon from a separate organization.

I think you're right. I think I just like them moreso because I have wondered about making a picture of Post-Dominion War Starfleet troops meeting with Cardassian soldiers at a base on Cardassia and there is a MACO texture already made for Poser.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

The MACO's weren't a part of the Enterprise's command structure, so Reed could give orders to Hayes because Reed was part of Archer's command. Reed was acting using Archer's authority over Hayes Starfleet doesn't do things on stars, why do you think Marines only do things on water? My take is that given the importance of the mission Major Hayes replaced the platoon's usual lieutenant. There was a limit to how many MACO's could be added to the Enterprise's complement of people, so the lieuteneant was left on Earth.Khaki.

As far as Hayes v Reed, you're probably right. Although I also wonder if it would have better to have Reed as Acting XO (and 3-i-C) with the rank of Commander) and Trip as 4-i-C or 5-i-C) as either Commander or a Lieutenant. I certainly think that it would have allowed them to develop the character of Reed better and would have avoided the issue of Hayes outranking him.

As far as Marines go, obviously they don't only do things on water, rapid deployment for landings from water (and to a lesser extent recon and intel-gathering) are certainly where they are mostly clearly superior to other similar units (even then, only if you need large numbers of troops, SEALs and potentially USCG DOG are better for small-unit like VBSS work). However, for many of the functions that Starfleet might need - including but not limited to: unconvential warfare (Green Berets), airbourne assault (Army Rangers, AFSOCOM, FORSCOM) or artic/mountain warfare (10th Mountain)*, hostage rescue (Delta, HRT) or CBRNE (various including NEST and DOG) - are not typically as I understand it roles that align with the typical understanding of the Marine Corps' skillset.

* The only "on-screen" appearance of the 'Starfleet Marine Corps' (for Operation Retrieve) being an example of this, especially due the US-style format of the name (while the USMC certainly has mountain warfare capacity, it's not a focus IFAIK), whereas calling them the Federation Marines (or at a pinch the Starfleet Marines) would hint at a unit similar to the UK Royal Marines (of which 3 Commando, the main combat element are artic/mountain warfare experts and therefore the kind of unit you'd want to use on Rura Pente).

Note, this isn't my only issue which the Operation Retrieve scene. If West is supposed to be a member of the different Service (or even just a different Branch) then he should have a different shirt colour (possibly the dark blue of the "Federation forces" that assisted Kirk on Nimbus II in TFF), ideally a different breast logo (if I was reworking the scene now, I'd probably base it around the AIG/Defense Branch (USS Constellation) insignia from TrekLit), and also correct rank for his costume (him being refered to as Vice Admiral/Lieutenant General would probably be the easier "fix" and would make sense in context). The presence is also an unexplained oddity (though given their mutual associatons, it might have been at "West's request". However, my biggest issue with the Operation Retrieve scene is that they are using a paper flip chart, something that was vanishingly rare even in TOS and looks even more ridiculously anachronistic after the fact, IMO?