Ground Forces in Star Trek

[Shamrock Holmes]

The appearance of Lieutenant Colonel Jan Kincade, Starfleet Ground Forces in The Poisoned Chalice got me thinking about what such an organisation should do, especially given that the different ranks suggest that it might have a different chain-of-command from the "Starfleet" that we know (mostly apparently Starfleet Deep Space Exploratory Corps (at least on the Enterprise-D)) given their use of military rather than naval ranks and also how they might compare to the Starfleet Rangers (suggested by Jeri Taylor, which appear to loosely ressemble USMC Force Recon or perhaps CIA SAD) or Starfleet Special Operations (mentioned in the A Time to... series to which Vale was briefly attached)?

Personally, I think the mostly likely arrangement would be to place SSO within Starfleet Security in the small unit "SWAT-type" role (Special Operations Response Teams (SORT)?), deployed on medium to large vessels for recon and rescue operations (combination of Force Recon and PJs/Delta/DEVGRU (both British and Australian SAS/SBS are sometimes used in these roles) and generally augmenting them during VIP or covert missions and routinely deploying at no more than platoon/troop strength (one runabout or similar) but possibly up to company strength for missions of more than a day or so or with multiple targets?

Starfleet Ground Forces (perhaps more properly Federation Ground Forces?) on the other hand, due to various logistical issues are probably the - mostly Reserve - force that operates mostly Army-style and is used for medium to long term operations (often humanitarian), often in much larger numbers due to less need for quick evacuations.

The Starfleet Rangers on the other hand are explicitly "covert operators" (likely recruited mostly from SSO, although Jason Tighe may have been SCE) and so are probably part of Starfleet Intelligence rather than Starfleet Security (should they be separate though?) and appear to work individually or in small ad-hoc groups, probably no larger than a section?

 

[Sgt_G]

You do raise some thought-provoking questions. I think you're on the right track in that the various commands would have different missions based on size, mobility, and capabilities. I think there would be a lot of parallels to the modern Army/Marines with small specialized units (SEALS, Delta Force), medium-sized units with a broad range of missions (Army Rangers, Marine Force Recon), and large generalized units (Army Battalions).

given their use of military rather than naval ranks

Soooooo .... that Navy isn't military??? I'm sure you meant to say "Army ranks" not "military ranks".

 

[Mysterion]

All for it.

My pet peeve with most folks take, though is calling them "Starfleet Marines". IMO they would more properly be the United Federation Marine Corps (UFMC).

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

You do raise some thought-provoking questions. I think you're on the right track in that the various commands would have different missions based on size, mobility, and capabilities. I think there would be a lot of parallels to the modern Army/Marines with small specialized units (SEALS, Delta Force), medium-sized units with a broad range of missions (Army Rangers, Marine Force Recon), and large generalized units (Army Battalions).

Soooooo .... that Navy isn't military??? I'm sure you meant to say "Army ranks" not "military ranks".

Wasn't sure how to phrase it, but yes, I meant Army (also Air Force, Marines, occassionally Police).

Do you agree that the large generalised units (essentially infantry) wouldn't be carried on most starships during peacetime? Also, does it make sense that there is only one of each type of unit (that is occassionally farmed out to other parts of the organisation), rather than each different Directorate duplicating some or all of the functions.

All for it.

My pet peeve with most folks take, though is calling them "Starfleet Marines". IMO they would more properly be the United Federation Marine Corps (UFMC).

I'm with you on not calling them the Starfleet Marines (though I do like the idea from the USMC and Green Berets that they are specialists in something and soldiers/rifleman as I think personnel who are exclusively soldiers would have little practical use during normal peacetime operations for Starfleet, if you're going to call them Marines, then I think it should be the Federation Marines (styled after the Royal Marines, which resemble Force Recon/MARSOC) or Federation Marine Corps (US-style), however I don't approve of the notion of calling them marines in the same way that Starfleet isn't called the Federation Navy, because although they take some of the traditions and protocols of navies they also closely resemble air forces, so their regular "fighting arm" should IMO be styled as commandos (styled after the SAS who inspired the USA Rangers, Dutch KCT, French 1er R.P.I.Ma and many others) rather than marines, so it should IMO be Federation Commandos (or perhaps in full, Commando Corps of the United Federation of Planet, abrievated to Federation Commandos, or perhaps FCOs/FEDCOs (Federation Command(o) Operations?) in regular usage.

 

[Sgt_G]

Do you agree that the large generalised units (essentially infantry) wouldn't be carried on most starships during peacetime?

An Army division is some 10,000 troops. A battalion is 500 troops. So, obviously, no you don't have unit that size just riding around in space. But I do think that a starship could have a platoon or two, each with 20 troops, assigned to it full time (rotating them out every six months or so).

Also, does it make sense that there is only one of each type of unit (that is occassionally farmed out to other parts of the organisation), rather than each different Directorate duplicating some or all of the functions.

Not sure what you're asking here. There would be several SEAL teams, not just one. But if your asking why have SEALS and Delta Force if they do the same job, then that's a valid argument. Best guess would be typical military bureaucracy. SEALS are Navy and Delta is Army. Neither wants to give up their teams. Another part is the size and capabilities of the units. If you send in Army Rangers, you're sending 100-150 combat troops. SEALS send in 30-50 troops. Delta teams are a dozen or less troops. When we went after bin Ladin, the SEALS went in because they were the right size: enough to do the job, not too many that transport got overly complex.

 

[somebuddyX]

I like the idea of there being Starfleet MACOs in the 24th Century.

 

[CeJay]

Interesting subject.

The Federation ground forces in our shared United Trek universe are mostly comprised of Starfleet Marines. We did have a conversation once about calling them Federation Marines instead but by that time they had already been established as such. But a Federation ground force which sits outside of Starfleet does make a lot of sense. Having said that a marine force which forms part of a fleet of sorts is not necessarily unlike the US Navy/US Marines relationship.

In the UT-verse the Marines form the third branch of Starfleet, along with the more traditional and Navy-like regular fleet which mostly focuses on exploratory missions and the Border Service, which is heavily based on the Cost Guard. We never fully established if there are other branches, but each branch including the Marines are headed by an admiral, (Commander, Starfleet; Commander/Commandant, Starfleet Marines, etc) All of which report to the Starfleet Commander-in-Chief.

Special Ops missions are carried out by the Special Missions Team, which operates similarly to US Navy Seals teams and sit, I believe (but could be wrong) within Starfleet's regular fleet hierarchy somewhere.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

An Army division is some 10,000 troops. A battalion is 500 troops. So, obviously, no you don't have unit that size just riding around in space. But I do think that a starship could have a platoon or two, each with 20 troops, assigned to it full time (rotating them out every six months or so).
Not sure what you're asking here. There would be several SEAL teams, not just one. But if your asking why have SEALS and Delta Force if they do the same job, then that's a valid argument. Best guess would be typical military bureaucracy. SEALS are Navy and Delta is Army. Neither wants to give up their teams. Another part is the size and capabilities of the units. If you send in Army Rangers, you're sending 100-150 combat troops. SEALS send in 30-50 troops. Delta teams are a dozen or less troops. When we went after bin Ladin, the SEALS went in because they were the right size: enough to do the job, not too many that transport got overly complex.

I'd say up a small company (although no more than a platoon worth deployed typically at once) depending on the size of the starship. Something like the Defiant might take a section/squad on board for a specific mission, Voyager should probably had a large section/squad or even a small platoon on board due to the mission (I'd also say the same for the Constitutions during their 5YMs), whereas a Galaxy-class could easily accommodate up a reinforced company in normal operations and up to a couple of battalions fairly easily for at least a short time if necessary, would you agree?

Yes, I was asking if it's likely that "Starfleet" is likely to avoid redundancy due to inter-service rivalry the way esp the US forces appear not to. One "small unit tactics"-type group (as noted, probably under Starfleet Security and mostly forward deployed on starships typically organised at platoon-level) rather than at least five top tier commands special operations that the US has, one "convential" group for extended deployments (seperate from the regular Fleet Chain-of-Command or it's own service, organised at company to battalion-level, based out of starbases and member planets accept during war.) and one covert "black ops/covert recon"-type group (probably administered by Starfleet Intelligence or shared with the 'civilian' Federation Security Agency, single/fireteam size is typical, up to squad is possible).

Does that clarify?

 

[Sgt_G]

Yes, I was asking if it's likely that "Starfleet" is likely to avoid redundancy due to inter-service rivalry the way esp the US forces appear not to.

If I had to put money on it, I'd say no. If you have the Army to handle planetary defense / occupation, Star Fleet Marines to invade planets (only to hand the planet over to the Army once the beachhead has been secured), and Star Fleet to handle things in space. Of course, there's the "civilian" Police Forces (or TLR's Border Service). Each of these branches of service will find a need to have special operations units, and perhaps of various sizes within the branch, such as the US Army's Rangers, Green Berets, and Delta Force. And it's even worse than the US military because now you have various planets who will have their own paramilitary security forces, with even more overlap of capabilities and interests.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

If I had to put money on it, I'd say no. If you have the Army to handle planetary defense / occupation, Star Fleet Marines to invade planets (only to hand the planet over to the Army once the beachhead has been secured), and Star Fleet to handle things in space. Of course, there's the "civilian" Police Forces (or TLR's Border Service). Each of these branches of service will find a need to have special operations units, and perhaps of various sizes within the branch, such as the US Army's Rangers, Green Berets, and Delta Force. And it's even worse than the US military because now you have various planets who will have their own paramilitary security forces, with even more overlap of capabilities and interests.

Wouldn't the "Marines" role in the invasion scenario be more analogus to Airborne-types like the 101st (ie a command/division within the Ground Forces/Army structure) rather than a semi-separate corps like the USMC?

I take your point about the different services, however I still think that there might be only one "type" of each (perhaps SF SORT teams would be attached to Border Service ships to "beef up security" for special missions, much as USN chaplains, medics and occassionally doctors are actually to USMC/USCG units in the RW on occassion, and obviously in reverse FGF batttalions would be transportable on the larger SF ships for short notice medium term ops (like the immediate occupation of planets) until dedicated SCE and FGF ships (IMO likely to be closer to oversized versions of the Xhosa, the Raven or the holoship from Insurrection, rather than the conventional - often double-hulled - "saucer-centric" SF designs.

 

[Sgt_G]

I'm not sure which way I'd go with it, but I don't think you can go wrong with any of the different ideas talked about above.

 

[Mysterion]

I'm with you on not calling them the Starfleet Marines (though I do like the idea from the USMC and Green Berets that they are specialists in something and soldiers/rifleman as I think personnel who are exclusively soldiers would have little practical use during normal peacetime operations for Starfleet...

How 'bout something like this:
*******
Technical Assesment and Contact Team (TACT)

Mission - A rapidly deployable team of personnel who can be sent to a newly contacted alien vessel, society, what have you to facilitate first contact with indigenous beings, and asses their level of technological achievement.

Personnel: Two officers trained in first contact methodologies/strategies as well as diplomatic protocols. Should also be grounded in at least the generalities of some scientific/technical field(s). In addition, eight non-commissioned officers (Petty Officers or Chief Petty Officers). These personnel are highly trained specialists, two each in the following field specilization areas:

Weapons/Defense - serve as force protection for the team as well as to evaluate defense/offense technology being encountered.

Communications/Linguistics - keeps the team in contact with base as well as facilitating communication with aliens encountered.

Medical/Bio-Sciences - Evaluate species encountered to determine physical make-up, and to determine and act upon any bio threat posed by the team to the aliens, or by the aliens to the team.

Engineering - Evaluate spacecraft and other technological systems being encountred.


This gives a total team of ten personnel. The duplication in skill-sets enables the team to be split into two five-person teams to be able to cover a larger area in less time if necessary (I've based this loosely on the organization of present-day US Army Special forces (i.e. "green beret") teams. Basically these are the guys you send over to the unknown alien ship or down to the new planet before Kirk shows up to talk the evil computer to death or whatever. They would function in peacetime as described above, but are perfectly organized to function as a spec ops team when the balloon goes up.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

How 'bout something like this:
*******
Technical Assesment and Contact Team (TACT)

Mission - A rapidly deployable team of personnel who can be sent to a newly contacted alien vessel, society, what have you to facilitate first contact with indigenous beings, and asses their level of technological achievement.

Personnel: Two officers trained in first contact methodologies/strategies as well as diplomatic protocols. Should also be grounded in at least the generalities of some scientific/technical field(s). In addition, eight non-commissioned officers (Petty Officers or Chief Petty Officers). These personnel are highly trained specialists, two each in the following field specilization areas:

Weapons/Defense - serve as force protection for the team as well as to evaluate defense/offense technology being encountered.

Communications/Linguistics - keeps the team in contact with base as well as facilitating communication with aliens encountered.

Medical/Bio-Sciences - Evaluate species encountered to determine physical make-up, and to determine and act upon any bio threat posed by the team to the aliens, or by the aliens to the team.

Engineering - Evaluate spacecraft and other technological systems being encountred.


This gives a total team of ten personnel. The duplication in skill-sets enables the team to be split into two five-person teams to be able to cover a larger area in less time if necessary (I've based this loosely on the organization of present-day US Army Special forces (i.e. "green beret") teams. Basically these are the guys you send over to the unknown alien ship or down to the new planet before Kirk shows up to talk the evil computer to death or whatever. They would function in peacetime as described above, but are perfectly organized to function as a spec ops team when the balloon goes up.

Like the idea generally, was actually going to question whether my SORT teams might have a similar roster. Not 100% sold on the acronym as TACT team would be easy to confuse with TAC team (trainer/assessors) and potentially others as well. Perhaps Contact, Assessment and Recon Team (CART) would work? With the SORT teams being heavier on W/D, probably with a Pilot and Flight Engineers/Fleet Survival Technicians (similar to USCG ASTs) as their "engineer element" with a specific focus on hazard environments and search and rescue?

 

[Sgt_G]

Mysterion, what you describe sounds very much like the PRIME TEAMS from Star Fleet Battles universe. There is a role-play game called PRIME DIRECTIVE that has been ported to the GURPS, D20, and D20M game engines.

 

[TwoJakes]

My pet peeve with most folks take, though is calling them "Starfleet Marines". IMO they would more properly be the United Federation Marine Corps (UFMC).

Given that it's not the United Federation Starfleet, maybe not. There would the Starmarines (or Star-army) with an entirely separate command structure from the Starfleet Admiralty.

If the Federation ever needed to raise a unusally large expeditionary force (multiple hundreds of thousands), the member worlds would provide their own forces (guard/reserves/ militia) and/or engage in recruitment.

I like the idea of there being Starfleet MACOs in the 24th Century.

I got the idea the Starfleet security were basically military police, so maybe Starfleet also has a division that's more infantry like.

During ENT, I never got the impression that the MACO's were a part of the then Starfleet, but were detached half platoon from a separate organization.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

There is a Starfleet Marine Corps. That's canon, because they're mentioned on the Operation Retrieve chart in ST VI. And of course there's COLONEL West.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Given that it's not the United Federation Starfleet, maybe not. There would the Starmarines (or Star-army) with an entirely separate command structure from the Starfleet Admiralty.

Personally, if you want to convert "marines" directly, especially if they're a totally separate command structure, I'd call them Commandos, Stellines/Stellarines/Astr(is)ines (Latin "of the stars"), spatines ("of space") rather than the marines (which belong in/near the sea)

If the Federation ever needed to raise a unusally large expeditionary force (multiple hundreds of thousands), the member worlds would provide their own forces (guard/reserves/ militia) and/or engage in recruitment.

Very much agree on this, Starfleet Ground Forces (mentioned in at least once recent Treklit book, tho combining it with references to "Federation Forces" from TFF into Federation Ground Forces) would be the obvious top-level command to administer this.

I got the idea the Starfleet security were basically military police, so maybe Starfleet also has a division that's more infantry like.

During ENT, I never got the impression that the MACO's were a part of the then Starfleet, but were detached half platoon from a separate organization.

Starfleet Security do seem to be basically MPs/criminal investigators, tho there is apparently some bleed over with SI or possibly JAG (Admiral Henry in The Drumhead), Starfleet Operations (Homefront/Paradise Lost), Starfleet Tactical/R & D (background info in The Pegasus). I've also suggested above that they are they "parent command" for any "SWAT-type" personnel attached to starships/starbases for high-risk operations such as search-and-rescue, hostage rescue, hazmat and EOD.

The MACOs certainly weren't part of the regular Starfleet 'chain-of-command' (even putting aside certain oddities of their ranks, Hayes should IMO been something like a Master Sergeant or Sgt Major, or a Lieutenant if he absolutely must be an officer?). Their commander was a General Casey, likely a peer or immediate subordinate to the (Starfleet) Chief of Staff (Forest then Gardner), however given that a Starfleet Lieutenant apparently outranks a MACO major it is possible that the MACOs are a "sub-element" of "Earth Starfleet" (in this case ESF uniformed personnel might actually be UESPA) rather than their own independent service (think SEALs rather MC and certainly not Army).

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I always thought that after the founding of the Federation, most of the MACOS were absorbed into Starfleet and became the SFMC.

As for why Reed (a Starfleet Lieutenant) outranked Hayes (a MACO Major): Probably just because Reed was the chief of security, and thus all MACOS fell under his jurisdiction. Even ones who outranked him.

My problem with the MACOS was, who took over for Hayes after his death? Didn't he have a Lieutenant or Captain serving under him?

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Apparently not, as Corporal McKenzie (possibly as a advisor to Lt Reed) "took command" of the squad of MACOs on board Enterprise (which might sense if Hayes was a sergeant of some sort) rather than a mid-ranked officer.

BTW, was the reference in the Operation Retrieve chart "SFMC" (which could logically mean Starfleet Military Command (ie the Division formed by the AIG in Treklit) just as easily, or actually mentions "Starfleet Marine Corps" in full?).

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ The Operation Retrieve chart mentions the Starfleet Marine Corps specifically. (The abbreviation 'SFMC' is mine, not theirs.)

And Hayes, in ENT, was most definitely a Major by rank. That's why I thought it was odd that his replacement was a corporal; an officer that highly ranked would surely have at least a Lieutenant serving as his second in command.