do you think TOS should have been remastered?
- Thread starter Clym
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I think it was unnecessary. The CGI most definitely looks like CGI, and does not fit the aesthetic of the time in which TOS was produced (no matter what Justman says in the bonus feature vignettes).
If they had used practical effects and made it all look like something from 2001: A Space Odyssey, I would have been happy. Instead, much of it looks like a dagnabbed Playstation 2 game.
Kor
If they had used practical effects and made it all look like something from 2001: A Space Odyssey, I would have been happy. Instead, much of it looks like a dagnabbed Playstation 2 game.
Kor
I think it was unnecessary. The CGI most definitely looks like CGI, and does not fit the aesthetic of the time in which TOS was produced (no matter what Justman says in the bonus feature vignettes).
If they had used practical effects and made it all look like something from 2001: A Space Odyssey, I would have been happy. Instead, much of it looks like a dagnabbed Playstation 2 game.
Kor
did TNG and DS9 use models or CGI?
I think the 1990s FX have held up really well, especially DS9's battle scenes. Could they not have remastered TOS like that?
The original visual effects were pretty good for their time. But I don't think they'd work on a modern TV screen. Cleaning up the visuals was a good idea. However, the way they went about it was terrible. I really feel they should have kept the same shot compositions as the original. By which I mean to replicate the original images shot for shot. Just make the new one clean enough to hold up to HD but look as much like the original as possible. Having said that, I did enjoy some of the planetary set extensions, but generally, the spaceships look terrible. The Klingon D-7 is down right offensive. And some of the ships which were changed for no reason bother me, like the replacement for the weird rocket in "Spock's Brain" for instance.
Anyway. It was a mixed bag definitely.
--Alex
Anyway. It was a mixed bag definitely.
--Alex
I'm happy that the episodes were remastered and the desire to redo the effects using CGI. Some of the early composites from TOS were pretty lousy, especially the shots from the rear of the nacelles looking towards the saucer which were grainy as hell.
In my opinion, the effects in TOS were really quite spectacular even with some dodgy and grainy composites. The planet flybys still thrill me and some of the new Enterprise shots produced during the 3rd season were really quite beautiful. Some of the remastered effects were quite nice but they take me out of the episode every time I see them because I know they were done forty years after the fact.
What I would have preferred was to have the CGI team recreate the original shots using models or CGI so that the integrity of the original episode was intact. I think an excellent example of a successful remastered shot is the first shot from The Cage as the camera pans into the bridge because the CGI team were able to pull off what was a nearly impossible effect shot back in 1964.
In my opinion, the effects in TOS were really quite spectacular even with some dodgy and grainy composites. The planet flybys still thrill me and some of the new Enterprise shots produced during the 3rd season were really quite beautiful. Some of the remastered effects were quite nice but they take me out of the episode every time I see them because I know they were done forty years after the fact.
What I would have preferred was to have the CGI team recreate the original shots using models or CGI so that the integrity of the original episode was intact. I think an excellent example of a successful remastered shot is the first shot from The Cage as the camera pans into the bridge because the CGI team were able to pull off what was a nearly impossible effect shot back in 1964.
The kaleidoscope energies of the original DM are far better looking and more interesting than the dull red furnace of the remastered version.
If memory serves, VOY was the first Trek incarnation to make regular use of CGI instead of practical models.
No, wait... I remember reading something about the battle scenes in DS9 toward the end of the series and the amount of rendering time they took. Maybe DS9 was the start of the CGI Trek.
Definitely not TNG.
the alien whale in TNG Galaxy's Child seemed like early CGI
When I see what some fan productions and devoted fans have done in recreating the original TOS aesthetic yet for contemporary viewing I think it makes much of TOS-R look poor.
Once again we need clarifucation. TOS had been remastered previously for its DVD release. What followed later was another remastering and the addition of new CGI f/x shots. Many of those shots were changes for change's sake.
As tempting as it is there is very little I would change or "fix" if I were overseeing an enhancement of TOS. As mentioned above I woukd recreate the original shots only with a complete model as opposed to the incomplete original 11 ft. filming miniature--similar to what Doug Drexler has done for Star Trek Continues. The primary fix would be to use the series production version of the ship consistently where it was always intended as opposed to reusing stock shots of the 2nd pilot version of the ship. I would also restore some of the things that were (or were not) originally there.
I would restore the silent phaser bursts in "Balance Of Terror" as opposed to using the photon torpedo sound effect. I would restore the no visible phaser beam as Scotty burns through the bulkhead in "The Naked Time." The planet wrecker in "The Doomsday Machine" would look more like the original as well as many of the alien ships seen throughout the series.
Yes, the TOS production staff would like to have done more, but anything added should look of the era under the best conditions of the time and not retconning things into the show that couldn't even have been imagined back in the day.
Once again we need clarifucation. TOS had been remastered previously for its DVD release. What followed later was another remastering and the addition of new CGI f/x shots. Many of those shots were changes for change's sake.
As tempting as it is there is very little I would change or "fix" if I were overseeing an enhancement of TOS. As mentioned above I woukd recreate the original shots only with a complete model as opposed to the incomplete original 11 ft. filming miniature--similar to what Doug Drexler has done for Star Trek Continues. The primary fix would be to use the series production version of the ship consistently where it was always intended as opposed to reusing stock shots of the 2nd pilot version of the ship. I would also restore some of the things that were (or were not) originally there.
I would restore the silent phaser bursts in "Balance Of Terror" as opposed to using the photon torpedo sound effect. I would restore the no visible phaser beam as Scotty burns through the bulkhead in "The Naked Time." The planet wrecker in "The Doomsday Machine" would look more like the original as well as many of the alien ships seen throughout the series.
Yes, the TOS production staff would like to have done more, but anything added should look of the era under the best conditions of the time and not retconning things into the show that couldn't even have been imagined back in the day.
The only problem here is these productions would have created top level CGI when you already suggest the CGI which was designed to meld with the old footage is glaring when integrated. Can't have it both ways.
You'll never really understand this I suspect.
RAMA
You'll never really understand this I suspect.
RAMA
I understand perfectly. It's just that you can't accept it bring done any other way and that you're happy with TOS-R as is. You also seem to believe that if someone doesn't see it the same way then they must be ignorant on some level.
I enjoyed most of the remastered episodes with the new CGI work, until everyone told me how they were bad and awful and that I should hate them.
A qualified "yes".
Yes the notion of Forest Gumping-in new CGI FX was a good one, but Paramount/CBS Digital did a lackluster job; in some cases, they dropped the ball entirely by not realizing the potential opportunity they had here or by making questionable choices.
As has been mentioned in the forum before, Paramount/ CBS Digital did the entire CGI job for TOS-R in-house. The quality fans expected did not materialize. I agree that many FX looked too CGI, and if they had simply farmed the job out to a good, professional outside CGI firm, it could have made a positive difference.
Another sticking point were noticeable changes that were made. In "Friday's Child", the funny orange blob was replaced by a Klingon cruiser. This made for a debatable improvement, because while it didn't look like a funny orange blob anymore, it also wasn't a good image of the D7, either. It was too small and distant-looking. In "The Enterprise Incident", TOS originally had the Enterprise surrounded by three Romulan-manned Klingon ships. For TOS-R, fans balked at one of the ships appearing as an older "Balance of Terror"-style Warbird. I had mixed feeling about it, but fans seemed to find it jarring. This change didn't really add anything to the scene. In "The Tholian Web", the more alien, crystaline-looking Tholian ship was replaced by CGI that looked closely derived from ENT's "In a Mirror, Darkly". I was not impressed. It has been said that CGI resulted in cartoonish images; to some extent I agree.
There were some really good examples of TOS-R imagery, though. In "The Trouble with Tribbles", Space Station K-7 really came alive. There were some outstanding examples of TOS images of vessels being replaced with interesting and completely new images for TOS-R. (Sometimes there was no original image, but TOS-R added one) The Denevan that flew into that system's sun ("Operation: Annihilate!"), Harry Mudd's cargo ship ("Mudd's Women"), and Space Cruiser Aurora ("The Way to Eden") seemed to all receive a new utilitarian vessel (Class J starship?). I welcomed this.
The CGI "Where No Man Has Gone Before" Enterprise was shown in both the second pilot and in the remastered "Mirror, Mirror". I thought the did a great job with it. But the Starship Defiant in "The Tholian Web" looked awful. I preferred the original Defiant.
I thought the CGI Antares ("Charlie X") was interesting, even if I was never a fan of the design. I was disappointed that the ore carrier Woden ("The Ultimate Computer") transformed from a DYellow Submarine to another "More Tribbles, More Troubles" Antares-alike. Why couldn't they come up with a new design that captured the general silhouette of the original Woden while making it distinctive? Another opportunity lost.
If it had been my call (fat chance, I know), the unidentified Klingon warship in "Friday's Child" would have been visibly Klingon, but of a new design, maybe a destroyer or light cruiser instead of a D7. Madkoifish's Klingon WIP could be an example of the possibilities. The Woden would've been a new design as well, but not an Antares-alike. The Romulanized Klingon ships in "The Enterprise Incident" would have all been Klingon in shape as was in TOS, but their hulls would have been made much more distinctive. I might also have varied their classes by making the command ship a D7 and the others of another Klingon class.
Yes the notion of Forest Gumping-in new CGI FX was a good one, but Paramount/CBS Digital did a lackluster job; in some cases, they dropped the ball entirely by not realizing the potential opportunity they had here or by making questionable choices.
As has been mentioned in the forum before, Paramount/ CBS Digital did the entire CGI job for TOS-R in-house. The quality fans expected did not materialize. I agree that many FX looked too CGI, and if they had simply farmed the job out to a good, professional outside CGI firm, it could have made a positive difference.
Another sticking point were noticeable changes that were made. In "Friday's Child", the funny orange blob was replaced by a Klingon cruiser. This made for a debatable improvement, because while it didn't look like a funny orange blob anymore, it also wasn't a good image of the D7, either. It was too small and distant-looking. In "The Enterprise Incident", TOS originally had the Enterprise surrounded by three Romulan-manned Klingon ships. For TOS-R, fans balked at one of the ships appearing as an older "Balance of Terror"-style Warbird. I had mixed feeling about it, but fans seemed to find it jarring. This change didn't really add anything to the scene. In "The Tholian Web", the more alien, crystaline-looking Tholian ship was replaced by CGI that looked closely derived from ENT's "In a Mirror, Darkly". I was not impressed. It has been said that CGI resulted in cartoonish images; to some extent I agree.
There were some really good examples of TOS-R imagery, though. In "The Trouble with Tribbles", Space Station K-7 really came alive. There were some outstanding examples of TOS images of vessels being replaced with interesting and completely new images for TOS-R. (Sometimes there was no original image, but TOS-R added one) The Denevan that flew into that system's sun ("Operation: Annihilate!"), Harry Mudd's cargo ship ("Mudd's Women"), and Space Cruiser Aurora ("The Way to Eden") seemed to all receive a new utilitarian vessel (Class J starship?). I welcomed this.
The CGI "Where No Man Has Gone Before" Enterprise was shown in both the second pilot and in the remastered "Mirror, Mirror". I thought the did a great job with it. But the Starship Defiant in "The Tholian Web" looked awful. I preferred the original Defiant.
I thought the CGI Antares ("Charlie X") was interesting, even if I was never a fan of the design. I was disappointed that the ore carrier Woden ("The Ultimate Computer") transformed from a DYellow Submarine to another "More Tribbles, More Troubles" Antares-alike. Why couldn't they come up with a new design that captured the general silhouette of the original Woden while making it distinctive? Another opportunity lost.
If it had been my call (fat chance, I know), the unidentified Klingon warship in "Friday's Child" would have been visibly Klingon, but of a new design, maybe a destroyer or light cruiser instead of a D7. Madkoifish's Klingon WIP could be an example of the possibilities. The Woden would've been a new design as well, but not an Antares-alike. The Romulanized Klingon ships in "The Enterprise Incident" would have all been Klingon in shape as was in TOS, but their hulls would have been made much more distinctive. I might also have varied their classes by making the command ship a D7 and the others of another Klingon class.
The thing is, labors of love (fan-films) can invest as much sweat equity as they want. So low-budgeted pro efforts can sometimes actually be worse than top fan-efforts because time is money. I think they did the best they could and I'm OK with most of their creative decisions but the project was just short-changed and it shows here and there. The picture quality was too often dull and low-contrast. Maybe that was their way of making it look retro but it doesn't hold a candle to STC. The compositing problem on the Enterprise where the neck is overlaying the saucer in The Cage is also inexcusable.
Was very hesitant when it was announced, but respectfully including the original effects as an option won me over.
Last year I upgraded to a 4k TV, and sadly the remastered effects don't hold up too well any more. They need to be redone.
Last year I upgraded to a 4k TV, and sadly the remastered effects don't hold up too well any more. They need to be redone.
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