Episode VIII production photos (possible spoilers)

[Ithekro]

The theoretical difference is the Galactic Republic stood for 1,000 years after something that brought the Sith down to one survivor (Darth Bane) who started the Rule of Two. However the Jedi have been around for 1,000 generations as the guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic. One would gather than at some point the Sith won the wars just backstabbed themselves so much that the Jedi were able to topple them and reinstitute a Republic some 1,000 years before the Clone Wars.

After a 1,000 years, something like the Twelfth Galactic Republic would probably lose the "Twelfth" title in normal conversation. Only historians would really care what number republic they are on. Palpatine may or may not have been correct about his new empire being the First Galactic Empire, or perhaps the previous ones were Sith Empires or named after their dominate species or the head Sith Lord in charge.

 

[Kor]

Tarkin also referred to the old republic in connection with the dissolution of the senate: "The last remnants of the old Republic have been swept away."

So based on this and Obi-Wan's line, I always assumed that the phrase "old republic" referred to whatever existed before the Empire came to power.

And then came along all this EU stuff to confuse things.

Kor

 

[Reverend]

The EU doesn't really come in to play here and regardless, that whole Ruusan Reformation thing was just an attempt to reconcile the "thousand generations" line with the multiple mentions of the Republic only being around for 1000 years. Which is also what the new canon stuff is still doing, they're just not specifying exactly what went down.

Anyway, to break it down, the term "Old Republic" was used in TCW at least twice. Once in 'The Mandalore Plot' and again in 'Citadel Rescue'. It was also inferred in 'A Test of Strength' with Huyang saying he'd been on the Crucible for a thousand years and that the ship itself was of a similar design to and sported the Republic Seal from the Old Republic MMO (small aside, but the Sith Empire logo from that game also popped up in the recent 'Lando' comic as part of one of Palpatine's collection of Sith artifacts.)
The "Old Republic" is also mentioned several times in the 'Aftermath' novel, though a few of them could refer to the post-Darth Bane pre-Darth Vader Republic from the Prequels, one specifically cannot, as it is said to be *several* millennia old.

The 'Tarkin' novel makes a more direct reference: -

"Eriadu could trace its history to the earliest era of the Republic. At that time, the galaxy’s dark age had ended, the Sith had been defeated and driven into hiding, and a true republic had emerged from the ashes. With a member of House Valorum presiding as Supreme Chancellor, a pan-galactic Senate had been created, and the military had been disbanded."

It also later describes an ancient Sith shrine buried deep beneath the Imperial Palace (the structure formerly known as the Jedi Temple), it's existence being a closely guarded secret and that Sidious was the first sentient to step foot in it in "almost five thousand years." Of possibly relevance is an oblique reference to the Empire having weapons (the Death Star) that haven't been seen in over a thousand years, dovetailing with Yoda's comment from the incomplete Utapau episodes concerning ancient super weapons powered by kyber crystals. There's also a line: -

"For the first time in one thousand generations our sector governors will not be working solely to enrich Coruscant and the Core Worlds"

Which if nothing else seems to imply that Coruscant and the core worlds have been the centre of galactic government for as long as the Jedi have served as it's guardians.

On top of all that we have the Sith Temple/battle station on Malachore in the season 2 finale of 'Rebels' that is said to be several thousand years old and surrounded by the petrified remains of both Sith and Jedi.

 

[Set Harth]

that whole Ruusan Reformation thing was just an attempt to reconcile the "thousand generations" line with the multiple mentions of the Republic only being around for 1000 years.

There was only one mention that I'm aware of, the one from early in AOTC.

It was also inferred in 'A Test of Strength' with Huyang saying he'd been on the Crucible for a thousand years

How can that episode be construed as weighing in on what the term "the Old Republic" means if the term isn't used in the episode?

 

[Ithekro]

There was another mention of 1,000 years in TPM, though it was to their not being a war or Sith in 1,000 years.

 

[Reverend]

There was only one mention that I'm aware of, the one from early in AOTC.

I have to admit, it's been a while since I watched that movie and you'll forgive me for not wanting to subject myself to it again any time soon, so the exact minute details of who said what in which scenes may just have escaped me. That movie has a lot of people-standing-around-in-offices-talking-about-plot type scenes.

Nevertheless, it's still mentioned and the point stands. Unless you're suggesting mentioning it more than once makes it more true while only one mention makes it less true? Because by that metric, according to the original trilogy there's no such thing as the Clone Wars as it was only mentioned the once.

How can that episode be construed as weighing in on what the term "the Old Republic" means if the term isn't used in the episode?

By having a thousand plus year old droid on a Jedi ship at least as old, with a seal that from what I gather has been officially referenced as being the seal of the Old Republic (and sourced from a game called---wait for it!--Star Wars: The Old Republic.)

 

[JD]

I had always assumed the Old Republic was just another name for the Republic from the Prequels, it never occurred it was something different.

 

[Reverend]

I had always assumed the Old Republic was just another name for the Republic from the Prequels, it never occurred it was something different.

So did most people, until they started using the term in the prequel era.
It does muddy things a little since you can't be sure if the "Old Republic" mentions in the OT have all been retroactively changed to refer to the pre-Rule of Two era Republic or the prequel era one, or if the terms are interchangeable. Perhaps in the time of the Empire people simply didn't distinguish between the two institutions.

 

[Ithekro]

Considering that people seem to view the Jedi as a near myth in the era of the Empire when though it has been less than a generation since the Clone Wars, muddling the definition between the Galactic Republic and the Old Republic seems par for the course. Even Obi-wan blurs the lines as perhaps they've decided that the Jedi service for the Republic is the entire thing, rather than just the last 1,000 years Republic.

 

[Reverend]

I can sort of buy the Jedi being considered a myth by some since at their height, they only numbered around 10,000. That sounds like a lot, but supposedly the SW galaxy consists of something like a million inhabited systems. Even if each system had only one habitable planet (though the average is probably close to three or four), that's still only one Jedi for every 100 planets. Then consider that each planet could have anything from a few thousand to going on a trillion. That's a whole hell of a lot of people who would never have even seen a Jedi in their lifetimes, even when they were active.

On top of that they lived fairly cloistered lives, so to most they would be more of an abstract idea than an everyday reality. Then you have the Empire systematically eradicating all trace of them for almost two decades and it's no wonder that many misconceptions were compounded or outright twisted (recall that Anakin was under the mistaken impression that Jedi were invincible.)

Still, it's probably worth remembering that only Rey thought Luke and the Jedi were a myth. Rey who grew up as a dirt poor scavenger, on a backwater dust bowl of a planet. Most of what she heard was probably third or fourth hand accounts of old spacers' tall tales. That she'd even heard the name "Luke Skywalker" probably says a lot about how famous he really is in the more settled and civilized regions of the galaxy.

Finally; Han's initial scepticism wasn't over the existence of Jedi, but of the force. Again, though we know little of his upbringing (there's still no official version of that yet) it's a fair bet that until he ran into Luke and Obi Wan he'd never had the opportunity to see it utilized first hand.

 

[The Wormhole]

The problem with the Jedi being considered a "myth" is that the Emperor mentions being attacked by them when he addressed the Senate to officially declare the Republic's transition to the Empire. Something like that was likely recorded for posterity and is therefore definitive proof in the Empire's official records the Jedi did indeed exist. That there could be anyone who thought the Jedi to be a myth seems as silly as someone believing the Confederacy to be a myth despite hearing the Gettysburg Address.

Finally; Han's initial scepticism wasn't over the existence of Jedi, but of the force.

In ANH, yes, that's how it was depicted. But in TFA he actually does say he once doubted the existence of the Jedi.

 

[Set Harth]

Nevertheless, it's still mentioned and the point stands. Unless you're suggesting mentioning it more than once makes it more true while only one mention makes it less true?

No, I was just trying to figure out what references you were alluding to. I haven't even seen every episode of TCW, IIRC, and for all I knew maybe you were referring to a book or something.

By having a thousand plus year old droid on a Jedi ship at least as old

But we already knew the Jedi were around longer than that, Guinness told us that way back in 1977.

(and sourced from a game called---wait for it!--Star Wars: The Old Republic.)

But isn't that the EU? Doesn't come into play, rendered moot, et cetera?

 

[Ithekro]

But isn't that the EU? Doesn't come into play, rendered moot, et cetera?

We aren't quite sure yet. References to it, though sometimes only background or styles, keep showing up in Clone Wars and Rebels, as well as possibly TFA.

 

[Set Harth]

Well, you could say that about a lot of EU... but I meant that it's not officially part of the new canon.

Also, possibly TFA? Do you mean to say there was something specific in TFA that you think might have been a TOR reference?

 

[Reverend]

Well, you could say that about a lot of EU... but I meant that it's not officially part of the new canon.

Also, possibly TFA? Do you mean to say there was something specific in TFA that you think might have been a TOR reference?

The point is that regardless of it's source, it's still referred to as being the *actual* seal of the Old Republic by official sources. That it also came from a game (that probably isn't canon in and of itself) called "The Old Republic" just sort of hammers the point home.
You'd have to be a special kind of obtuse to dispute the intent behind using that design, in that context.

The problem with the Jedi being considered a "myth" is that the Emperor mentions being attacked by them when he addressed the Senate to officially declare the Republic's transition to the Empire. Something like that was likely recorded for posterity and is therefore definitive proof in the Empire's official records the Jedi did indeed exist. That there could be anyone who thought the Jedi to be a myth seems as silly as someone believing the Confederacy to be a myth despite hearing the Gettysburg Address.

Records can be altered. History can be re-written, especially in a totalitarian state. Just take a look at Joseph Stalin's photo album some day. Indeed, the speech itself was already re-writing history, who's to say that was the final version? Also, never underestimate people's capacity to believe fiction or disbelieve reality. Most people believe whatever they want to believe, regardless of empirical evidence.

Regardless, the point remains that this is Rey we're talking about. She didn't exactly have access to a Republic library. She presumably grew up on stories of what happened. Some of them probably massively exaggerated, others probably pure fiction. It's no wonder she'd think some of it was more myth than reality. Like for instance the one about the reborn Jedi chosen one that could make battlestations explode with his mind and defeated a million stormtroopers with one hand and was seven feet tall and shot lighting out of his eyes and...well, you see where I'm going with this...

She probably heard a lot of stories about Luke. Some of them probably true and accurate, others probably not so much.
Also remember that this is now two generations since the Jedi were wiped out. They're no longer in living memory for most people.

In ANH, yes, that's how it was depicted. But in TFA he actually does say he once doubted the existence of the Jedi.

IIRC the wording of that scene is: -

REY: The Jedi were real?
HAN: I used to wonder about that myself. Thought it was a bunch of mumbo jumbo. A magical power holding together good and evil, the dark side and the light...​

Wondering about something is one thing. Outright disbelief is another. Also, he's clearly talking more about the existence of the force, not whether or not there used to be an order of laser sword waving crazy wizards that used "simple tricks and nonsense."

 

[Ithekro]

Han Solo was probably around ten years old or up to 16 years old when the Clone Wars ended, based only on Harrison Ford's age in 1977 (he was born in1942). We don't know for sure, and with a new movie in the works, that could change a little. For all we know he was a little bit older, or was trying at 16 to join the Republic or Seperatist forces to defend his home or running away even. He could have been one of the earliest recruits for the new Empire to replace the clones in the military. Hopefully we will find out something in a few years.

Alden Ehrenreich will be 29 by the time his Han Solo film comes out (likely December 2018), So he won't be playing that much younger a Han Solo that Harrison Ford did in 1977. Maybe around the time or at most five years before the time of Star Wars: Rebels? So about halfway between Episode III and IV. Assuming they don't try to make a movie that takes place just before ANH that ends with Han Solo heading to Tatooine to meet his fate with the Skywalker family.

 

[ancient]

I think that kind of ignorance of history is harder to understand for people who lived their whole life in a country with free speech in the information age. An oppressive government that has 100% control over the history books & can kill dissenters at will is a whole other story. Try going to Iran and asking them if the holocaust (which left a mountain of physical & recorded evidence) really happened.

 

[shapeshifter]

In E2, after Anakin and OB1 chase the would be assassin into the bar Anakin announces to those present that they are conducting "official Jedi business", IIRC. The people would need to know what that means for his words to carry any authority.

 

[Set Harth]

There was another mention of 1,000 years in TPM, though it was to their not being a war or Sith in 1,000 years.

You're thinking of two separate references in different films. In TPM it was said ( wrongly, of course ) that the Sith had been extinct for a millennium. In AOTC it was said that there had not been a full-scale war since the formation of the Republic.

 

[Reverend]

In E2, after Anakin and OB1 chase the would be assassin into the bar Anakin announces to those present that they are conducting "official Jedi business", IIRC. The people would need to know what that means for his words to carry any authority.

Lowlifes in a bar on Coruscant in a time when the Jedi were active is a long way from a orphaned scavenger living in the arse end of nowhere more than half a century after they were all effectively wiped off the galactic map.

You're thinking of two separate references in different films. In TPM it was said ( wrongly, of course ) that the Sith had been extinct for a millennium. In AOTC it was said that there had not been a full-scale war since the formation of the Republic.

Which merely suggests that the referenced occurrences are directly related. That the Republic has so far stood for a thousand years, that there hasn't been a full scale war since that time and the Sith who once ruled the galaxy were thought to be made extinct.

You don't have to be massively imaginative to put the pieces together.

Han Solo was probably around ten years old or up to 16 years old when the Clone Wars ended, based only on Harrison Ford's age in 1977 (he was born in1942). We don't know for sure, and with a new movie in the works, that could change a little. For all we know he was a little bit older, or was trying at 16 to join the Republic or Seperatist forces to defend his home or running away even. He could have been one of the earliest recruits for the new Empire to replace the clones in the military. Hopefully we will find out something in a few years.

Alden Ehrenreich will be 29 by the time his Han Solo film comes out (likely December 2018), So he won't be playing that much younger a Han Solo that Harrison Ford did in 1977. Maybe around the time or at most five years before the time of Star Wars: Rebels? So about halfway between Episode III and IV. Assuming they don't try to make a movie that takes place just before ANH that ends with Han Solo heading to Tatooine to meet his fate with the Skywalker family.

I'm just happy to assume that Han is simply cynical by nature and having never seen any evidence (to his eyes) despite being well travelled and by his own admission "seen a lot of strange stuff".

It would have been a bit hard to justify that attitude however had Lucas actually followed through with the idea of having a young, semi-feral Han as a child in the Kashyyykk scenes in RotS. Wookiees seem to be big believers in the force, in their own way and him being raised by them would make his disbelief a tad unlikely.
That he's walking around with a Wookiee who knows first hand that it's all real creates enough problems as it stands. The only explanation I can think of is that Chewie knows what he knows but at the same time respects Han's right to believe whatever he wants to believe and thinks it's not his place to correct him.