Resolution of Tholian Web

[Xotika]

I really don't think Spock promoted himself, but he was in command.

Let me say it this way. An individual can be the "Captain" of a ship and not hold the rank of Captain. Many smaller ships do have an officer holding the rank of Lieutenant or Commander as the Captain of the ship and they are addressed as Captain in that capacity.

And since Jim was declared dead, even if we didn't believe it, being dead disqualifies him for continuing to be the Captain.

Oh, I'm not disputing his r

 

[Xotika]

Sorry, clicked send in error and unable to edit. I'm not disputing his right to be called Captain, I just don't understand why it was nesessary for him to declare Kirk dead and hold a service when he himself insisted there is still a chance Kirk is alive. He could have stayed in temporary command like in Arena, for example, he wasn't ordered to assume capitancy by fleet and there was no other reason to do that.

And I note that only Chekov calls him Captan (well, McCoy did too, but it was a form of apology)

 

[Timo]

It would certainly be weird (and detrimental to morale) for the ship to remain captainless after Kirk has been buried in absentia! But I don't think Spock would be jumping the gun. Kirk really is twice dead here: he has died for all practical purposes when he disappeared into the interphase, and any hope of miraculous resurrection is now gone due to the combat with the Tholians.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[HGN2001]

The declaration of death and the service were done as "closure" for the crew.

 

[Marsden]

Sorry, clicked send in error and unable to edit. I'm not disputing his right to be called Captain, I just don't understand why it was nesessary for him to declare Kirk dead and hold a service when he himself insisted there is still a chance Kirk is alive. He could have stayed in temporary command like in Arena, for example, he wasn't ordered to assume capitancy by fleet and there was no other reason to do that.

And I note that only Chekov calls him Captan (well, McCoy did too, but it was a form of apology)

Maybe there's a regulation about that, and Mr. Spock was doing his logically arriving at a time to be emotional to cling to hope beyond all logical chance that Jim was lost?

And sad to say, Chekov is frequently portrayed as smart in some areas and not smart in others, not sure. Plus, I don't think anyone would have called Commodore Stocker or Decker "Captain" even though both of them took command. Do we have a shoulder shrugging smiley? Imagine one here for me.

 

[Xotika]

It would certainly be weird (and detrimental to morale) for the ship to remain captainless after Kirk has been buried in absentia! But I don't think Spock would be jumping the gun. Kirk really is twice dead here: he has died for all practical purposes when he disappeared into the interphase, and any hope of miraculous resurrection is now gone due to the combat with the Tholians.

Timo Saloniemi

But they're staying in this area of space only for the purpose of saving Kirk - so either declare him dead, get closure and get out as soon as engines are working or keep searching, and in later case - why have the funeral? It's not their first battle with Spock or Scotty or Sulu in command, and nobody had troubles with it before.
I really don't get the need for funeral in the middle of the battle for someone who may still be alive, that's what always bothered me most about this episode.

 

[Timo]

But they're staying in this area of space only for the purpose of saving Kirk

Not after the funeral, though. The real reason the ship is staying is because the Tholians crippled her, and are now cocooning her. And that reason for staying came to be at exactly the same moment any efforts to save Kirk ceased - they are two sides of the same coin.

The first opportunity to leave comes quite some time after the funeral, too. There's nothing to be done, and nothing for the crew to do, before that opportunity arises. Forcing them to a formal service is as good a way as any to maintain a semblance of discipline.

And really, nobody thinks Kirk might still be alive.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Xotika]

And that reason for staying came to be at exactly the same moment any efforts to save Kirk ceased - they are two sides of the same coin.

...

And really, nobody thinks Kirk might still be alive.

Timo Saloniemi

But why? The space is disturbed by Tholians - Spock says that they just have to recalculate for next interphase. Then space is disturbed again but this time Spock declares Kirk dead instead of redoing the maths correcting for new disturbance. Kirk still has oxygen, calculations are possible as later events show, and anyway they're sitting there not moving till engines are fixed. It's not even an idle calculation as they ended up needing it anyway to escape the web. So why the hurry to bury Kirk?

Not to menton that "Captain is dead" is not the best propaganda. The ship is crippled, engines are dead, weapons are dead, there are two enemy ships, some net that does nobody knows what, people are going berserk with no cure for it and nobody knows what will happen - oh, guys, and by the way your Captain is dead too. I wonder how many people's first reaction was "so are we".

 

[Timo]

The air from the spacesuit running out is a factor only as long as Kirk keeps on reappearing to regular space. Spock is explicit about it: "The fabric of space is very weak here. If we disturb it, there will be no chance of retrieving the Captain alive." They did, and there wasn't.

As for the propaganda value, Spock has to command the ship. So Kirk has to die. Giving people hope is the worst thing he could think of doing, because that's the most common source of despair in the universe...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[STEPhon IT]

Kirk didn't necessarily go to the same universe the Defiant did. He could have been trapped halfway, gone to a pocket universe, etc. Space was somewhat fractured in that location. When that happens you can get interactions from more than one universe (an example being the multiple Enterprises in the TNG episode Parallels.)
The Defiant's ultimate destination is established and explained in the Season 4 Enterprise episode In A Mirror, Darkly. I thought their explanation made for the best two episodes of that series.

Not really. The writers wrote a convenient episode to have the crew wear Star Trek tunics and be aboard a starship class set. There were nothing in those 2 episodes could explain the disputed events from that very, very, VERY flawed story The Tholian Web.

 

[Kor]

Nearly a half century of watching this episode (taking the odd toilet break occasionally), and I'm no closer, really, to figuring out what the hell was supposed to be going on at the end. I thought I had it once, but no. Plenty of episodes have the odd detail that makes no sense , fine, dead lines were looming, mistakes don't get fixed, no time. . . But here we're talking about the culmination of the story, what it's all leading up to. They must have at least thought it made some sense.

Alright, we're thrown the "fact" that any use of power disturbs the unstable space. The danger? Either they'd be lost in the other universe, or they'd screw up making contact with Kirk. The former as it turned out I guess. Fine, I don't need to know why any use of power is bad. I guess.

The Tholians finish their web. Its purpose? A great big transporter to send the Enterprise to some secure place as a captured ship. I think.

So.. . web powers up. Though the Ent is meant to vanish, right when it's supposed to, it vanishes to someplace else. Presumably it's Kirk's private universe where the Defiant is, because they slipped through as the Defiant did. But not really. The Enterprise wasn't dissolving. The Defiant wasn't powering up when it went, either. So more than one way to cross over. Confusing.

So it's a black place without stars. If they'd detected Kirk and the Defiant in this void and beamed him aboard, fine, then they'd have to figure out some way to get back out of the empty universe.

Instead, they're in the black place a few seconds, then re-appear in normal space, somewhere away from the Web . It's only then that they see Kirk, who conveniently takes center stage right in front of them, right in the middle of the viewscreen. They have him there because he was caught in a transporter beam (when?) and carried along by it, to the regular universe. Did someone somehow forget to turn off the transporter after their last attempt? It caught him in the beam, but they didn't know? I'd almost say they were thinking of a tractor beam.

Spock "explains" : "By utilizing ship 's power we have been thrown clear of it ." Clear of the Web. How did they get back? Why another point in space?

Well, I'm done.

Turd season, dude. It never happened.

Kirk didn't necessarily go to the same universe the Defiant did. He could have been trapped halfway, gone to a pocket universe, etc. Space was somewhat fractured in that location. When that happens you can get interactions from more than one universe (an example being the multiple Enterprises in the TNG episode Parallels.)
The Defiant's ultimate destination is established and explained in the Season 4 Enterprise episode In A Mirror, Darkly. I thought their explanation made for the best two episodes of that series.

Retroactive continuity.

Whoever is in command is addressed as captain even if they are a different rank, at least as far as I know.

Most notably seen in ST09 (and complained about a lot) .

Kor

 

[Xotika]

The air from the spacesuit running out is a factor only as long as Kirk keeps on reappearing to regular space. Spock is explicit about it: "The fabric of space is very weak here. If we disturb it, there will be no chance of retrieving the Captain alive." They did, and there wasn't.

After he says it Tholian ship appears and disturbs the space, but he insists Kirkis not lost and he just needs to recalculate the interfase - and then suddenly he doesn't.

As for the propaganda value, Spock has to command the ship. So Kirk has to die.

Spock never needed it to command before or after.

There are reasons military came up with MIA term instead of just declaring dead everyone who can't be accounted for. One is to prevent situations when person somehow turns up alive but doesn't even have a legal status because he is dead and buried already as far as state is concerned. Which happened to Kirk by the way - how can he come back to captain a starship if he is listed as dead?

 

[J.T.B.]

And I note that only Chekov calls him Captan (well, McCoy did too, but it was a form of apology)

I'm pretty sure Scotty did, too, over the intercom.

 

[CrazyMatt]

And I note that only Chekov calls him Captan (well, McCoy did too, but it was a form of apology)

Actually, he called Spock "Kepteen."

 

[johnnybear]

Maybe there's a regulation about that, and Mr. Spock was doing his logically arriving at a time to be emotional to cling to hope beyond all logical chance that Jim was lost?

And sad to say, Chekov is frequently portrayed as smart in some areas and not smart in others, not sure. Plus, I don't think anyone would have called Commodore Stocker or Decker "Captain" even though both of them took command. Do we have a shoulder shrugging smiley? Imagine one here for me.

Well nobody would call Decker Captain would they! He was a Commodore!
JB

 

[johnnybear]

When I was a kid I used to think that Kirk sent the special orders to Spock and McCoy from the other universe where he was living on The Defiant! HaHa. That was my perception of it anyway at the time!
JB

 

[UnknownSample]

Nitpicking unnecessary. They call Spock captain because he's in the big chair. Nothing really official.

 

[Timo]

After he says it Tholian ship appears and disturbs the space, but he insists Kirkis not lost and he just needs to recalculate the interfase - and then suddenly he doesn't.

There's nothing sudden or surprising about it. The arrival of the Tholians is not something Spock initially thinks would endanger Kirk. It's only when Kirk is late in manifesting that he begins to worry about that - but then the Tholians fire their death rays, and that cinches the issue. Kirk is dead as of that moment, and all attempts to rescue him cease.

There are reasons military came up with MIA term instead of just declaring dead everyone who can't be accounted for. One is to prevent situations when person somehow turns up alive but doesn't even have a legal status because he is dead and buried already as far as state is concerned. Which happened to Kirk by the way - how can he come back to captain a starship if he is listed as dead?

I trust Starfleet has gotten used to that by now - Kirk officially (and apparently factually, that is, clinically) died in "Amok Time" already...

That Kirk would be missing doesn't qualify him for MIA status, if he's missing in a lake of molten lava, say. The interphase thing sounds worse.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Scotchy]

STEPhon IT - "Not really. The writers wrote a convenient episode to have the crew wear Star Trek tunics and be aboard a starship class set. There were nothing in those 2 episodes could explain the disputed events from that very, very, VERY flawed story The Tholian Web."
While I agree with you that The Tholian Web was certainly not a perfect episode, I have to disagree about the 2 Enterprise episodes. They explained why the Defiant was pulled into another universe, where it went and what it was used for.
They also provided some more information about the Tholians themselves when they had one in custody on Enterprise. While it was amusing to see them run around in the original uniforms, I enjoyed watching Defiant fight her way out of Tholian custody. I also liked the battle with the Gorn.
In my opinion, the DS9 epsiode Trials and Tribble-ations was more along the line you describe.

 

[johnnybear]

STEPhon IT - "Not really. The writers wrote a convenient episode to have the crew wear Star Trek tunics and be aboard a starship class set. There were nothing in those 2 episodes could explain the disputed events from that very, very, VERY flawed story The Tholian Web."
While I agree with you that The Tholian Web was certainly not a perfect episode, I have to disagree about the 2 Enterprise episodes. They explained why the Defiant was pulled into another universe, where it went and what it was used for.
They also provided some more information about the Tholians themselves when they had one in custody on Enterprise. While it was amusing to see them run around in the original uniforms, I enjoyed watching Defiant fight her way out of Tholian custody. I also liked the battle with the Gorn.
In my opinion, the DS9 epsiode Trials and Tribble-ations was more along the line you describe.

I did look forward to this one if for no other reason to see a Gorn again! But what a disappointment it was too! A piece of CGI animated cobblers! Why couldn't they have constructed or rehashed the original masterpiece? That would have made my day and I might have even bought the DVD!
JB