Absolutely. I was talking only about the dial-a-shag booths. Or Tinder as I hear it's now called.
How would a society with no money work?
- Thread starter Gingerbread Demon
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Absolutely. I was talking only about the dial-a-shag booths. Or Tinder as I hear it's now called.
Or, he has some latinum, starfleet types may tend to pick up some here and there, it's no use to them inside the federation, but has a use outside of it.
I mean I once swapped some trading cards for about 5 dollars worth of American quarters. They were completely and utterly useless to me, but I had never seen American money before and I had/have a sort of coin collection.
So...there are reasons ro have currency and even exchange it, without it being remotely tied to monetary exchange.
(you can buy roman dinar...it doesn't mean theres an exchange rate for trading with the roman empire, which has no money by virtue of not existing anymore)
There's also the possibility that Federation staff on ds9 are issues with some kind of bonds that Quark can trade for something on ds9...money off his rent to bajor something. All that scene shows is that some form of currency exists for federation citizens on deep space nine. However, since the replicators are also there, again it's basically Disney dollars.
LOL, illogical. Doesn't make any sense at all. If you know how the economy (real world economy) work, then please explain me why the things that you explain work, and can be accepted by our common sense. I'm not an expert in economy, nor understand it fully. But even an ignorant like me can say that what you write didn't make any sense at all.
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In a conversation with Keiko, Miles said growing up his family didn't have a replicator, nothing was said about refusing, they just didn't have one.
What makes you think most people on Earth have replicators?
Okay, then why didn't Harry buy the gemstones? In fact, why didn't Harry pay twenty times what Quark was asking? After all (according to you) the money would have been worthless to Harry.
Quark didn't pay rent, if you remember in the pilot Sisko had to bargain with Quark just to get him to stay.
Most people who regularly travel probably have some currency from places they regularly go to lying around. They didn't exchange it back into their own currency, so it is essentially useless, until they travel again and take it with them.
This is how what I just described would work. Unlike it the real world, there's nothing to exchange it for....like the Roman Dinar I mentioned. I can buy the coins, essentially exchanging one currency for another, but the roman empire no longer exists, so the currency is no use as a currency, but just as an artifact.
Harry Kim looks like he'd be a collector of stamps or coins....
The novels also occasionally refer to Riker having a stash of latinum he uses in just these sorts of situations.
So....Yes, my grasp of economics is enough to grasp what is currency in one place is just an amusing piece of metal or paper in another. In the context of the Federation as a colonising influence, it's even a bit 'glass baubles to the natives' from a certain point of view.
My grasp of economics and geography is enough to notice that ds9 for its entire run is not a member of the Federation, and so different rules apply there, especially in regard to non starfleet personnel or deals made with them (the replimat appears to be free, they appear to be authorising some kind of payment from a stipend when at quarks etc)
Enjoy your lolling.
I said access to, not directly own, and why wouldn't they? Particularly if money no longer exists (as stated in dialogue) and transporters have rendered travel to anywhere in the world as easy as going out your front door.
Harry had been warned about the ferengi....people on holiday still haggle over price with local merchants or hate being ripped off even if the amounts exchange into near nothing of their own currency. Or if he's running off a stipend system from voyager, he hardly wants his captain to know he's an idiot who get's ripped off his first day at the academy, so the cost is to his reputation, not to him or the federation coffers financially.
Either way I will take a line of dialogue upon which hinges a couple of important character scenes in a motion picture, over joke in pilot episode.
After all, it's all because he was warned about ferengi at the academy....or do the ferengi also eat their business partners, as implied in a line of no import in another pilot?
Quark was persuaded to stay by Sisko when he wanted to leave....later on it is quite apparent he is still leasing his bar in some way from the Bajorans, as otherwise no authority figure would have any power over him for the various things we are shown them using it for (something that should come up in the relaunch novels more, where Quarks is also a ferengi embassy...theoretically making it ferengi space and giving Quark diplomatic immunity, especially for anything that happens in the bar.)
Or indeed any power to help when Brunt takes his business license, and everyone breaks out the spare deckchairs etc.
It's a complex relationship, never spelled out, but it has no bearing on this discussion anyway, because deep space nine, and bajor to whole it belongs, are not in the federation....they are only useful examples to look at how the federation might be trading with outside parties, or how starfleet pay their bar bill outside federation space as opposed to inside.
As an example of internal economics of the Federation, Quarks bar is utterly useless. He's not in the Federation in any way. He appeared to have a lease from the cardassians, and then continued to hold it when the Bajorans reclaimed their sovereignty.
Harry Kim is a collector of stamps or coins? So where did he get those coin from? If he didn't get paid for his work, then he didn't has any income. Then how can he collect something? Remember, he's penniless. And also remember, he's an employee of the United Federation of Planet. So his employer is his sole source of income at that time, which is none. Because Starfleet didn't pay him with anything. So, is he a thief?
And where did Riker got those stash of latinum from? He was a thief?
In our world, yes. People who regularly travel will have some currency from places they regularly go. But it doesn't mean that those currency become useless when they go home. Because in our world economy, there is a kind of new business of investment that use the money exchange. Even people who never travel still exchange foreign money for profit. And that is happen in the 21st Century. in 24th Century, the galaxy should be more connected; and Ferengi do business with a lot of species. That means, Gold Pressed latinum is more valuable than you think.
So where those penniless guys got their money from?
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You don't seem to notice the difference between currency as a means of trade, and it's tokens as artifacts.
Busking? They both play instruments...gambling with an object as collateral? Who knows. All that matters is that it is perfectly possible for a person to obtain the tokens of currency without ever actually being paid, or being a thief.
(though it may be questionable to use a replicated object from inside the federation to gain funds outside of it)
And Harry Kims hobbies were a joking figment of my imagination to demonstrate why he may have currency. He may also have been issued pocket money by Starfleet, for use in the local port (ds9) as they are not a federation world as yet.
And yes there's a variety of ways that can cone into being without there ever being a currency in the federation to exchange it for. (eg starfleet can issue stipends in Bajoran whotsits, that the Bajoran government honours as part of its agreement to have starfleet run the station and in the lead up to it joining the federation....who cares about whotsits when in a fairly short space of time all money will be pointless because they are joining the federation? Just don't run the bar bill up too high lads.)
Anyway am tired of stating the bleeding obvious to what appear to be Very Angry People.
Picard and Kirk both outright state there is no money in the federation in Star Trek.
As they are the lead characters and are not unreliable narrators, then there is no money in the federation in Star Trek.
Want etc eradicated, how would that work? People get what they want and need and work out of pride or self fulfillment, not to survive or to generate Pac Man high score wealth. They get to judge their worth to society not by their bank balance but by their reputation and standing.
Like it or not, that's pretty much how the federation is repeatedly described and portrayed on screen, and Ds9 isn't in federation space, nor a member of the Federation.
It would be more creative to figure out how the Federation works without money rather than dismiss it out of hand as so many people seem to do. People keep bringing up the ideas of 'haves and have nots', "who works the sewers?", and "who gets the beach houses?" as counter arguments for the Federation not possibly working and then dismissing it entirely.
It would be more creative to figure out how it does work and why. Why is it stated that their is no money on Earth? How have they managed to remove most if not all the human problems generally associated with the desire for money and the need for things? It doesn't make sense to discount the main characters statements on how the Federation or Earth is in the 23rd and 24th centuries (even the 22nd to some extent).
Is the Federation perfect? No. If it was their would be very little opportunity for storytelling. However a lot of the stories were written to have external forces be what drives the story while there was little to no conflict within the Federation. Accumulation of wealth was considered a worthless endeavor by the 24th century and the Ferengi were originally designed to be extreme capitalism as the Federation's enemy (their culture was retained and refined, but they came off as too silly to be a major threat to the Federation. What's the point of a major capitalist enemy to the Federation that can manufacture gems and replicated gold?) You have then moneyless Federation society and the greedy money obsessed Ferengi. That was the point and counterpoint. Our thing should be figuring out how the Federation functions as we live the Ferengi way already.
It would be more creative to figure out how it does work and why. Why is it stated that their is no money on Earth? How have they managed to remove most if not all the human problems generally associated with the desire for money and the need for things? It doesn't make sense to discount the main characters statements on how the Federation or Earth is in the 23rd and 24th centuries (even the 22nd to some extent).
Is the Federation perfect? No. If it was their would be very little opportunity for storytelling. However a lot of the stories were written to have external forces be what drives the story while there was little to no conflict within the Federation. Accumulation of wealth was considered a worthless endeavor by the 24th century and the Ferengi were originally designed to be extreme capitalism as the Federation's enemy (their culture was retained and refined, but they came off as too silly to be a major threat to the Federation. What's the point of a major capitalist enemy to the Federation that can manufacture gems and replicated gold?) You have then moneyless Federation society and the greedy money obsessed Ferengi. That was the point and counterpoint. Our thing should be figuring out how the Federation functions as we live the Ferengi way already.
Well, I have. I said that Federation still use money, they still conduct trade with other civilizations, or another Federation members, etc. It's either the Federation or Earth Government who make policy to subsidies all the people who live on Earth. Maybe because they (the people on Earth) are either the family of Starfleet Official, or work to the government.
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So the answer to 'how does the federation work without money?' is 'it doesn't, it has money' and disregards on screen dialogue and events?
The argument of 'it would be impossible' also applies to warp travel, transporters, time travel and holodecks.
Suspension of disbelief.
Science fiction is meant to imagine these things.
Why would I want to creatively explain why there is no currency when there clearly is? You seem to be under the impression that the show outright says there's no currency but simply makes the occasional mistake which contradicts that position.
As far as I'm concerned, it's the other way round: the show outright says there IS currency but simply makes the occasional mistake which contradicts that position.
There are far more examples of there being currency than there are examples to contradict that.
It doesn't disregard on screen dialogue and events. Because our characters still have money. That's including Jeanluc Picard, dr. Crusher, and Harry Kim. In a society without money, you won't have any money / currency because you don't have any income.
But that's work if only Earth that free all the people from paying anything. AKA, they don't need to use money to fulfill their daily necessity. In First Contact, Picard said to the woman that there is no money in 24th century. But the context was the 24th Century Earth.
While Jack Sisko spent his childhood in USS Saratoga before he moved to Utopia Planetary Ship Yard with his father. He is virtually lived in Starfleet Facilities in his early day (before he moved to DS9). So it's make sense if he doesn't know money.
As long as I know, there were only two characters who mentioned that Earth doesn't use money in Star Trek. And the context is Earth.
You're right about Science fiction is meant to imagine these things. But still, these imagination should be making sense. The problem is that Harry Kim collecting coin, Riker stashed latinum, people don't work and just doing their hobby was actually doesn't make any sense at all. That's why I said that you should explain your argument with our current economy model as the basis. Not just Harry has the hobby to collect money, Riker love to stash latinum that we don't even know where he got from, etc.
Ok, Federation doesn't use money. So how their economy work? Abundant energy reserve, or Unlimited Energy Income like what you said? Abundant is making sense, but unlimited energy income is a NO. Because there is always a limit for everything. And there where is the energy come from? Your explanation doesn't explain everything. Right now, we use nuclear, solar, geo thermal, hydro power, fossil fuel, etc. Still they are not enough to fulfill the energy needs for 6 billions people on Earth. So what happen if they need to fulfill the energy demand of 8000 star systems with thousands of billion people energy need? Then what will happen if there is uncontrolled urbanization / movement; from other civilizations to the Federation Space? If the Federation Energy Reserve can fulfill the need 8000 billion people, then what happen if the number of people raise dramatically? Say 100.000 billion people? That will nullify the abundant energy reserve and reset everything to our current situation again.
And the funny thing is that you said that every planet is self sufficient, and thus eliminated the need of trade. Then why Star Trek Insurrection was happen? Why the Admiral need to move the people of Baku from the planet just because they need the substance in that planet for healing property?The replicator can't replicate that substance?
Then it's become funnier when you said that people don't need to work because of replicator. They just do that for hobby. That kind of society would drive our Earth to this state of event : http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0387808/
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Ignoring stuff I have already answered...
The radiation on the Baku planet could not be replicated. It is already energy.
The 8000 star systems you mention already have 8000 stars to draw power from, and once you put antimatter/matter reactors into the equation you get near limitless energy.
These people can bend space to travel faster than light, and turn matter into energy and back again over great distances, or reform matter into a totally different pattern.
Generally it wasn't the small green pieces of paper that were unhappy.
They made a big deal about collecting the radiation from that system and reproducing it elsewhere, but there was never any indication that this would actually work.
As for replicators, I'm reminded of a novel I read when I was in high school - can't remember the name, specifically, but it concerned a society which invented something very much like a replicator. It was actually a duplicator, which made copies of whatever was fed into it. Almost overnight, the entire society reshaped itself into a brutal slave system - those who had the duplicators were the masters of those who did not. I can't shake the feeling that something similar would happen with the replicator, given what we know of human nature.
Earth is just another Federation member world (the formal name is "United Earth"). It doesn't have any special status.
Earth has its own planetary government, separate from the Federation, and it sends a representative to the Federation Council. Earth just happens to be the location of most of the Federation government buildings - and also Starfleet Headquarters - but in the grand scheme of things, that doesn't mean anything. Earth is a member of the Federation just like any other world is.
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The key to all of this is the idea that humans no longer compete for resources, and no longer try to hoard those resources...no oneupmanship.
It's one of the problems without world that we have almost trek like technology, but not trek like human beings. And that's not even a political thing, with both sides of the political spectrum behaving like...well. 21St century humans.
It's one of the problems without world that we have almost trek like technology, but not trek like human beings. And that's not even a political thing, with both sides of the political spectrum behaving like...well. 21St century humans.
Memory Alpha "Carter Winston (A TAS character) was the foremost Human trader and philanthropist of the 23rd century. Winston had acquired a dozen fortunes only to use his wealth time and again to assist Federation colonies in times of need or disaster."
And yet the Federation has no monetary currency maybe this character was rich in Old Testament oxen, cattle and sheep?
So in the reboot universe the new Vulcan colony are fucked, since there is no money to help them or pay the aid workers. I hope their Diaspora are stinking rich...oops not possible abundant wealth does not exist.
And yet the Federation has no monetary currency maybe this character was rich in Old Testament oxen, cattle and sheep?
So in the reboot universe the new Vulcan colony are fucked, since there is no money to help them or pay the aid workers. I hope their Diaspora are stinking rich...oops not possible abundant wealth does not exist.
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And from what episode that tell about antimatter/matter reactor that give you near limitless energy? Because we witness a lot of energy crisis scene that happen in our heroes Starship in the show.
This is the definition of energy :
In physics, energy is a property of objects which can be transferred to other objects or converted into different forms.[1] The "ability of a system to perform work".
Energy is the ability of a system to perform work, it's not an object, it's a property of objects.
So transporter doesn't turn matter to energy. If they use our sub-atomic material as the fuel to move a starship, then yes, they convert matter into energy.
There are two possibility for this device. The first one is to dematerialize object into sub atomic matter and then shoot them to the destination in a speed of light, before it rematerialized the object again , the second possibility is the use of quantum teleportation theory with their shared quantum entanglement. Which is work like a fax machine. They get only the information of the object, and then move the information into another, making the original object destroyed and the new information create a new object.
And, oh. actually,
A replicator was a device that used transporter technology to dematerialize quantities of matter and then rematerialize that matter in another form. It was also capable of inverting its function, thus disposing of leftovers and dishes and storing the bulk material again. (TNG: "Lonely Among Us"; DS9: "Hard Time", "The Ascent"; VOY: "Year of Hell", "Memorial")
It just convert matter to another matter; by first dematerialize an object into sub-atomic matter and store them at a container. And then when they need it, they just rematerialize the sub-atomic matter into an object. Of course, Replicator needs energy to work; and it needs a lot.
The problem of this thread is that people confused between energy (a property of objects) and Matter (an object).
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Why? Let's use the classic Star Trek vs Star Wars comparisons as an example. It is generally considered that Star Trek is a more Science Fiction property than Star Wars. A more thinking mans SciFi. A more believable SciFi. That's because more thought was given to the underlying science and the rules governing the made up future tech. Star Trek, while acknowledging that FTL travel is made up fiction, provides a logical structure and mechanism to make that seem believable. How Warp Drive and Shields and Transporters work. Etc. Star Wars is "Spaceships go Vrooom! Pew! Pew! pew!" In other words "it just is. Don't think on it too hard." At least as far as the physics and technologies are portrayed.
But Gene was a good writer who occasionally used some good industrial engineers. He certainly was no economist. The result is when it comes to in universe economics and politics, Star Wars suddenly becomes the believable structured universe, and Star Trek is "The economy goes Vroom! Pew! Pew! Pew! We don't need no steenking moneys!" You can think on it all you want. But at the end of the day Star Treks economy makes about as much sense as a Lightsaber. (Clumsy, erratic, inefficient, impossible to work as envisioned, and likely to cut your own head off casually.)
Gene wrote metaphors without ever thinking if they could work. Which is fine. It is SciFi after all. It's just that in the same way the NCC-1701 often feels more real. More mapped out, and more believable than an X Wing (great it has a teeny tiny hyperdrive... So why does it only have a single teeny seat with no place to pee?) The Trek economy lacks that needed element that permits suspension of disbelief. At least if you know anything about economics.
Fans have spent nearly four decades techno-babbling up Star Wars to fit what we see or are told to get around the as you say "Spaceships go Vroom! Pew! Pew! pew!" so what is to stop Star Trek fan from spending time trying to eco-babble the Earth or Federation economy into something that functions without money by the late 23rd century, and improved to work even better by the 24th century. To get around the "economy goes Vroom! Pew! Pew! Pew! We don't need no steenking moneys!'
Seems only fair.
Seems only fair.
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