Even Human heros in the 24th century are not infallible, very capable of deception and speaking a load of tosh
How would a society with no money work?
- Thread starter Gingerbread Demon
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And yet, accorded to repeated dialogue, over and over, that is precisely how the fictional universe of Star Trek works.
Repeatedly and in writing an inch high apparently.
Only if STNG writers gave him an Anglo- Saxon name, and his family vineyard was based in Kent and not France. Still want to know who defends the Federation and who fights its wars since it cannot be 'we are explorers' Starfleet.
Repeatedly and in
The mixture of French and English History suggests names would not be enough to distinguish, (as apparently having Ex Astris Scientia as it's motto, is not enough to imply Starfleet is primarily devoted to exploration) and all of his cultural signifiers are more English than French. Even owning a vineyard in France could conceivably be something not attached to his nationality, aside from which *inserts tongue in cheek* he drinks tea, has a character defining moment where he outright refuses to surrender when he probably should, chose to fight his enemy as he approached rather than running to protect Paris, I never once saw him eat cheese, and he rode horses rather than serving them on a bed of garlic. I mean he sang Frere jacque once, and swore in French a few times, but which red blooded Englishman hasn't done those things too?
Of course the writers said he was French, but clearly if information given in dialogue should be disregarded in favour of interpretation only of behaviour, (and a fine RP accent) then Picard is an Englishman. His family fought at Trafalgar after all.
It is stated of course that he is French, it is stated that the federation prefer personal improvement over materialism, have no money and that starfleet is primarily devoted to peaceful exploration.
That it can defend itself and the federation when needed is neither here nor there.....even the old trade ships carried cannon.
Star Trek ships are similar, only rather than calling in the Navy (or cavalry) They do that part of the explorers job themselves, because space is big and dangerous. Now if your Trade and exploration ships (or missionary ships, as they are mainly trading in knowledge and ideals) are able to fulfill the role of a military, why would you bother with an actual military when your entire culture is now devoted to essentially peaceful pursuits, requiring no warfare to gain resources or prestige, and only defense of a realm so expansive it is nigh impossible to actually threaten the wellbeing of?
They don't even have treasure to be stolen, they don't use money.
(the dominion and borg of course question that, but largely by being existential threats, the borg almost being a force of nature at first.)
So, since the dialogue explicitly paints a picture, and builds a world, which is more often than not held up in the actions and behaviours we see....I choose to stick with that interpretation, as there is nothing that explicitly contradicts it or the stories intent. Having every captain be lying, or deluded and misleading, sort of goes against the overall grain of Trek. Kirk et al are heroes, not anti heroes, and the humanity of Trek is about showing how much 'better' we are a few hundred years down the road after softer some rather literally earth shattering events.
In much the way we hope we are 'better' than our forebears a few hundred years ago, after some earth shattering events.
(Trek chooses to suggest that applies to every last human on the planet, neatly sidestepping the horror that still exist in our modern world continuing despite our apparent level of civilisation.)
And yet unless Picard was speaking on behalf of every single being in the Federation, I'll take his 'we don't need money, we work to improve ourselves with a pinch of salt'. A group of beings that fight wars on behalf of the state are either paid mercenaries or a standing army. Starfleet has many traits of the latter no matter what words the writers put in the characters mouths. And since there are enough examples in the genre that expose that plot hole and has been discussed in this thread. I blame the whole thing on something the writers added but was not considered probably.
There's a fair chunk of truth in that, but you forgot the option of starfleet being paramilitary, and of the idea that as such they're not a standing army, by citizens called to bring their arms to defend their home. It's an important distinction, because something like Genesis then becomes a Wmd, with the potential to wage agressive warfare, made by a military who are all operating on a deceitful basis (we are explorers etc)
It changes the entire dynamic of the characters.
The same is true of the 'no money' which doesn't come just from Picard. We also see Kirk and Spock bamboozled by 'correct change only' in TVH, and a few other occurrences. They even outright say 'they still use money'. Not cash, or any other term referring to the specific system, but money itself.
That writers didn't always think that through is true, but I don't think it was the times they mention not having money that they dropped the ball, it's the times things happen that would be difficult to explain without money changing hands.
Of course, then you get Riker exchanging musical knowledge with a bit of Riker charm for information in the afore mentioned bar...and it's accepted. Maybe because he charms her, or maybe because she knows starfleet officers, as an extension of the Federation, don't actually have money.
We see that information/material barter happen a lot. And that makes perfect sense for explorers....that or they need to find a bureau de change every few sectors, or carry some galactic equivalent of bullion (latinum being the only thing that would seem to fit, everything else can be grown or replicated it seems...so who knows what alien tech can do)
Anything else would be the equivalent of glass baubles to the natives (and the federation already Apes our earlier empires, particularly the British Empire, we don't want it bringing too many of the negative aspects into its imagines future as well as the positives.)
There's so many reasons money would be useless both in the federation and exploring outside of it, and so many examples of it basically not being needed, and more than a few of it being explicitly and implicitly stated by characters (whether matter of fact or condescendingly) Even the general opinion of the Ferengi by the other major races and powers seems to suggest cultures outside of the Federation don't bother with it much either.
It's one of the things that make trek unique. Until Ds9 we didn't even have some silly sci fi credit name to use, it was just simply never mentioned because it didn't matter.
It's a bit more than simply running out of gas. Remember Praxis was one of the Klingon's primary sources of energy. In a time when seemingly unlimited energy equates directly to unlimited food, water and such. In short the Dilithium Mines on Praxis allowed the Klingon Empire to support populations in excess of local biospheres. This is an issue that the Federation could similarly face. Yes Praxis polluted the homeworld. Which while seemingly nasty and horrific, is a survivable situation for a well colonized spacefaring empire. It would not cause the "x number of years left" statement from Starfleet. No the problem is that in the time of Star Trek energy = food. Energy also = the means to take more food or energy from others. So with the loss of Praxis the Klingons became pretty much Royaly F'ed. The end point to the loss of Praxis was mass starvation and catastrophic population loss across the Empire. Now the Klingon's could have simply elected to start a war to seize the resources needed. This was in fact what Chang and company wanted. Gorkon however saw the major flaws in that plan. To start a war from such a position of weakness, without sufficient energy resources to propogate it, against either well entrenched foe (federation or Romulan) both having near unlimited means of production would be suicide at best. The best possible outcome was extended war leading to famine and catastrophic population loss. So Gorkon sued for peace. To open trade relations and allow for the free flow of resources from outside. He saw that it was the only way for the Klingon's to survive long term.
Some real world equivalents to this can be found both historically and currently. The situation faced by the Klingon's is not unlike that that routinely presents itself in North Korea. Insufficient resources to suit their needs within a closed walled fortress society with no real outside interaction, as a result mass starvation occurs.
The two real world examples of looking at and contrasting Chang and Gorkon's approaches would be Japan in the early 40's leading into World War 2 (Chang's approach) Strike hard and fast using your limited resources in the hopes that you bloody your opponents nose enough to seize what you need and dig in before the dragon awakes and outproduces you into oblivion. Much Glory! Very little Math! And ultimately a no win situation for the Klingons.
and Gorkon's approach is better reflected by 1960's China. Which they clearly tip off to in the movie. "Only Nixon could go to China". That line is more than just a throwaway or a reflection of Kirk. It subtly informs what the real world parallels are. To come out of the isolation and join the larger community and economy. To allow trade and through it growth and expansion. There really is some fascinating economic historic and political commentary going on beneath the surface of Undiscovered Country. Hat's off to Nicholas Meyer and crew for it.
Which is not the case, since not everyone has a replicator.
Picard's family, for instance. Robert disapproved of replicators and refused to allow them in the home. How would the so-called moneyless Federation take care of such people, then?
He's old fashioned. He would do thing 23rd or 22nd century style (however that is).
As for Starfleet, they are explorers first, defenders of the Federation second or even third. Starfleet is the Federation's Minutemen. Their job is not military, but they can be called up to perform that task and have the ranking and training in place in case they are needed. But when not needed, they preform their primary tasks were are scientific based.
Ummm no, really not. If anything it can be viewed that certain divisions or "commands" within Starfleet were first and foremost explorers. Overall Starfleet is probably more akin to the British Admiralty and fleet of the 17 and 18 th centuries. One of their primary tasks is exploration and mapping the world around them. But they were pure military through and through. There is no "called up".
People put way too much stock in Picard. Picard is a hippy within Starfleet. He is a master diplomat. But look at those that we have met that give Picard orders. Admiral Nacheyev. Admiral Nagall (and yes I know I am probably misspelling these). Etc. I think the only Starfleet Admirral we ever met that might be considered an explorer or scientist first was McCoy. And he was well into the throes of dementia by then. Dear lord they even promoted Janeway over and above Picard. This is clearly not an organization dedicated to the peaceful or bloodless solution.
Starfleets primary goal is to protect the Federation, Maintain the peace, and deal with the tons of crap that come up daily among a thousand worlds. It's just that we mainly get to follow the big heroic deep space explorer ships like the Enterprise's. Less so the day to day workhorses that keep the spaceplanes safe. We get a few glimpses of those every now and then. Especially in the later seasons of DS9.
Military taskforce.
Exactly like Starfleet forming at the beginning of First Contact (movie).
And during the Dominion War.
And in Nemesis in sector ten forty-five.
And in the finale of Voyager.
And in The Ultimate Computer (more war games).
And Picard himself formed one in Redemption.
And there's Wolf 359.
Operation Dynamo did not make a fishing boat into a warship.
But the 85 warships in that operation were warships, the fishing boats involved were like the civilian freighters in a military convoy.
Still a military operation, with military objectives.
O'Brien grew up in a house without a replicator. For the majority of the characters we don't know one way or the other if their families back on Earth (or elsewhere) have replicators in their homes.
Keiko said her family had a relicator, but that's the only time I recall anyone saying there was a replicator back home. If replicators are expensive to purchase and operate they could be realitively rare among the general population.
They can't be expensive if there's no money. And if people have access to a replicator, what would they need money for?
And they do bring up job satisfaction. Repeatedly. As though personal development for them both were a large motivation....
They don't bring up anal sex either but that's probably still around too.
I don't think I've ever brought up electricity but I take it for granted pretty much everyday.
Same reason they buy drinks from Quarks when they don't have to; because replicators aren't everything.
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