What is the age of the Enterprise (NCC-1701)?

[Timo]

Yet the evidence is sorta irrelevant, as the issue of whether TMP would be for real is not one that should ever be raised. Half the episodes of Star Trek don't mesh with each other, yet regardless the underlying concept of Trek is that it isn't an anthology show, but a serial adventure even across spinoff borders. We don't need a reference to "Catspaw" outside "Catspaw" to know it did happen; TMP is no different.

I don't quite get the "Spock never commanded in active duty -> the Enterprise wasn't in active duty" argument. We know for a fact that the ship can get commanders other than TOS top billet characters, and there's no particular reason to assume she did not. Several could fit in between Kirk and Spock, in any timeline version we prefer.

OTOH, as regards "temp skippers", we shouldn't forget that not only did (Lieutenant?) Pike command the ship in "The Cage", he also handed over the ship to Kirk as per "The Menagerie". This dictates either a minimum of two stints in command, or then a continuous stretch, one defined by our assumptions about when Kirk took command. Perhaps Pike handed the ship over to Lieutenant Kirk, early on in the latter's career, thus shortening the timespan involved? This would then affect our assumptions about the early career of Kirk but let Pike off the speculation hook and minimize the temp skipper numbers.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Dukhat]

As already stated: There was no "between TMP and TWOK." They are on time tracks as different as the Abrams movies and everything that came before. The ship seen in TWoK and TSFS is not the refit ship from TMP; they just happen to look alike on the outside. No matter what the Okudas and their successors have tried to do chronology-wise, there is a great deal more evidence against TMP-TWOK continuity than there is evidence for such continuity.

Huh? Are you suggesting that TMP took place in its own alternate universe from TOS and the other TOS films? Because to my knowledge, neither Paramount nor CBS have made a statement to that effect. And exactly what evidence are you suggesting for this hypothesis?

 

[BillJ]

And exactly what evidence are you suggesting for this hypothesis?

"A great deal of evidence", nothing I've seen in TWOK contradicts what we see in TMP.

 

[Dukhat]

So I went back a few pages and found his reasoning.

The refit versus no-refit question comes down to this, as I wrote on some earlier thread: The reason the Enterprise of TWoK is now a training vessel is that it really is an older design - one that happens to look like the refit seen in TMP (on the outside, anyway), but that's coincidental. The TWoK ship is simply the TV Enterprise but with better detailing. Or to look at it anther way, it's unreasonable for the "almost entirely new Enterprise" of TMP to serve as a training vessel only 5? to 10? years later; this in turn is evidence for the view (which I share) that - despite the Star Trek Chronology, etc. - TWoK and TMP share no continuity whatever, despite cost-saving measures such as reuse of the Klingon ship and space dock footage. The elapsed time is between "Space Seed" and TWoK, not between TMP and TWoK; in fact there is no measurable elapsed time between TMP and TWoK.

This is not evidence. This is just supposition. We really have no idea why Starfleet is using the Enterprise as a training vessel. For all we know, Starfleet wants its cadets to be trained on a ship with the newest systems available, of which this refitted Enterprise fits the bill accordingly. I mean, the Kobayashi Maru training room is the exact same bridge as the refit Enterprise. Why would Starfleet have cadets train on an exact copy of that bridge if they didn't think that that's the kind of ship they'd be stationed on?

And I'd be hard-pressed to find anyone who would agree that the TWOK Enterprise is the exact same outwardly-appearing ship as the TOS Enterprise with better detailing. That's just nonsense. If that were the case, then you'd have to presuppose that every piece of the ship's interior, from the computers to the walls to the chairs, were also just the original TOS interiors, with better detailing.

 

[gottacook]

Please refer to a thread from about a year ago, "So Kirk makes the same mistake TWICE in accepting promotion?" The discussion there covers the same territory.

I still maintain (after long years of contemplation, and having been around for all the pre- and post-release attention given to both movies) that the real challenge is in finding evidence for continuity between TMP and TWoK.

 

[Dukhat]

Please refer to a thread from about a year ago, "So Kirk makes the same mistake TWICE in accepting promotion?" The discussion there covers the same territory.

Then please give us the link to that thread, or post the relevant information from it.

I still maintain (after long years of contemplation, and having been around for all the pre- and post-release attention given to both movies) that the real challenge is in finding evidence for continuity between TMP and TWoK.

But because you're the one making this assumption, the burden of evidence is on you. So besides what I've already quoted from you in my previous post (and which I have given a logical rebuttal to), you need to give us all of your evidence as to why you think TMP isn't part of the regular "prime" Star Trek universe.

 

[Kemaiku]

If it was just the ship with "better detailing" and TMP didn't exist, then TOS-R would have replaced the ship with the refit design, the interiors with the TWOK bridge and engineering etc

They didn't...

 

[BillJ]

Did Kirk make the same mistake twice? Maybe he was kicked upstairs? Forced into promotion for his lax interpretation of the Prime Directive during TOS. Given command of the Enterprise again because he saved the planet. Then finally thought it was time to actually move to a desk after a decade plus of commanding a starship.

 

[gottacook]

Here is the link:

So Kirk makes the same mistake TWICE in accepting promotion?

 

[Timo]

I don't see where a "mistake" would come in. Kirk gets promoted, meaning he cannot command starships any more. There's no personal choice involved beyond that point: the promotion happened prior to ST:TMP and becomes part of Kirk's career from then on, a brief stint saving the Earth notwithstanding. Kirk just wasn't able to hold on to the ship past the V'Ger mission, and there was no way he would pull off that trick twice, no way for him to command a starship again in ST2. Oh, well, at least he could get a birthday cruise...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Longinus]

Here is the link:

So Kirk makes the same mistake TWICE in accepting promotion?

Your whole interpretation is based on the idea that Kirk remained as a captain and in command of the Enterprise after the V'Ger crisis. There is no evidence for that, in fact I think it is pretty unlikely. It was a temporary rank reduction* and a temporary command. He was still really a Rear Admiral.

And of course this whole idea of separating TMP in it's own pocket reality because of a perceived continuity error is stupid beyond belief. By that logic we can argue that every episode and film happens in their own reality, as there always sill be some little thing that doesn't match absolutely perfectly.

*Granted, this never made any sense.

 

[gottacook]

And of course this whole idea of separating TMP in it's own pocket reality because of a perceived continuity error is stupid beyond belief.

Whether or not my interpretation is stupid, it's surely not as stupid as the explicit separation of timelines propounded by the Abrams movies (with, in my opinion sadly, Leonard Nimoy's participation - twice!)

Besides, it's not a continuity "error," but rather the result of TMP not being enough of a success for anyone (i.e., Paramount and/or the people it gave the job of making a second film) to want to follow TMP's path with regard to uniforms, stateliness, G rating, etc.

Surely if TMP had been a big enough hit to remain in theaters for even one-third as long as Star Wars' year-long run in 1977-78, any second picture would have been a sequel in every respect, uniforms and all (although perhaps with the change to electronic displays on the bridge as seen in TWoK).

 

[Longinus]

Whether or not my interpretation is stupid, it's surely not as stupid as the explicit separation of timelines propounded by the Abrams movies (with, in my opinion sadly, Leonard Nimoy's participation - twice!)

Certainly true!

Besides, it's not a continuity "error," but rather the result of TMP not being enough of a success for anyone (i.e., Paramount and/or the people it gave the job of making a second film) to want to follow TMP's path with regard to uniforms, stateliness, G rating, etc.

Sure. But that doesn't mean that TMP isn't part of the continuity.

 

[Kor]

The G rating was different back then. Watch "The Andromeda Strain" or the original "Planet of the Apes" some time.

Kor

 

[BillJ]

Whether or not my interpretation is stupid, it's surely not as stupid as the explicit separation of timelines propounded by the Abrams movies (with, in my opinion sadly, Leonard Nimoy's participation - twice!)

Funny how people will go out of their way to bash the Abrams movies in a thread that has nothing to do with them.

 

[Dukhat]

Whether or not my interpretation is stupid, it's surely not as stupid as the explicit separation of timelines propounded by the Abrams movies (with, in my opinion sadly, Leonard Nimoy's participation - twice!)

The Abrams films have nothing to do with this discussion, so bringing them up does not count as "evidence" of your opinions about TMP.

Besides, it's not a continuity "error," but rather the result of TMP not being enough of a success for anyone (i.e., Paramount and/or the people it gave the job of making a second film) to want to follow TMP's path with regard to uniforms, stateliness, G rating, etc...Surely if TMP had been a big enough hit to remain in theaters for even one-third as long as Star Wars' year-long run in 1977-78, any second picture would have been a sequel in every respect, uniforms and all (although perhaps with the change to electronic displays on the bridge as seen in TWoK).

Again, this is supposition on your part, and an opinion based on real-world production values from 1979, and not "evidence" that TMP takes place in a different pocket universe. Really, I'm not sure how any of this actually helps your case.

 

[Leto_II]

As already stated: There was no "between TMP and TWOK." They are on time tracks as different as the Abrams movies and everything that came before. The ship seen in TWoK and TSFS is not the refit ship from TMP; they just happen to look alike on the outside. No matter what the Okudas and their successors have tried to do chronology-wise, there is a great deal more evidence against TMP-TWOK continuity than there is evidence for such continuity.

 

[PhaserLightShow]

So you have a Doctor Who picture featuring Amy and the Doctor (as portrayed by Matt Smith). I like that, but what is your point?

@PhaserLightShow

 

[Lance]

This is not evidence. This is just supposition.

Well, it's all "just supposition", isn't it. That's the point. As we've established in this thread already, even the things which fans tend to use as "facts" for the chronology of the characters are mostly just pieces of conjecture based on the scant little evidence that we do get.

Admittedly, I don't agree with the idea that TWOK and TMP are mutually exclusive universes. But I do see the reasoning behind it. Nicholas Meyer himself took the view (at the time) that 'the other movie [TMP] doesn't exist', which is why there is a certain sense of the reset button being hit at the start of TWOK. Notably, you can virtually skip TMP completely, while acknowledging that the bridge layouts etc are obviously not the same as TOS, and work on the assumption that the TWOK Enterprise might just be a visual upgrade of the TV show ship for the big screen (the 'This Is How It Always Looked But They Didn't Have The Budget On The TV Show' hypothesis that Herman Zimmerman also used to justify his set changes to 1701-D in Star Trek: Generations.)

And there are certain, very minor, elements of TWOK that repeat story themes that were already tackled in TMP, in particular Kirk's feelings of disappointment about accepting a promotion.

That all being said, we as fans must reconcile things like this, because we sure as hell aren't going to write off TMP as 'never having happened'!

EDIT: For the sake of playing devil's advocate for a moment, if we do write-off TMP and just assume there was a timeline jump from TOS to TWOK, then both the "15 years later" in TWOK and Admiral Morrow's comments about Enterprise's age in TSFS are more plausible. Trying to fit TMP into that presupposed length of time is where all of the contradictions begin to appear, although they aren't necessarily irreconcilable.... (and reconciling them is exactly what Star Trek fandom has been doing for the last 34 years. )

 

[Robert D. Robot]

So you have a Doctor Who picture featuring Amy and the Doctor (as portrayed by Matt Smith). I like that, but what is your point?

@PhaserLightShow

In the United States (and in other Earth cultures that I am familiar with), the side-to-side eye movements, positioning/movement of the eyebrows, lips, etc., seen in the gif usually indicate that the subject is considering a statement or situation that seems confusing to them, and they are trying to make sense of something that they find (at least initially) perplexing or (in some cases) outright non-sensical.

Also, the file name for the gif begins with "whaaaaa", which implies (at least to me) that the gif is meant to express the confusion of a person being confounded by the logic of a statement or situation.

At least that is my take on it.