There was never any question who the captain would be...
Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home said:
How Many Captains Per Starship?
- Thread starter Steve Willis
- Start date
There was never any question who the captain would be...
I always thought that Kirk's ship was the exception for multi Captains, just as his Command crew stayed intact for so long.
I always found it strange in Star Trek Generations, the most intelligent, strategic Star Fleet Captain on the bridge decides to leave the Bridge in a dire situation to perform an engineering duty??? Multiple Captains would be of good used for a CO, because she/he has a senior staff who are great in what they do. Makes duty flow better through out the vessel. As a member mentioned earlier, these things are common in the military, why wouldn't be common in Star Trek?
In TMP, Kirk booted Decker from the center seat.
Even though Decker was demoted from the position of Captain of the ship to the ship's Executive Officer, I wondered why it was necessary for Kirk to reduce Decker's grade to Commander as well, albeit only temporarily.
Even if he had allowed Decker to keep his rank of captain, Admiral Kirk would still have outranked Decker. So there would still have been no ambiguity as to who was in charge. The reduction in Decker's rank seemed almost like adding insult to injury.
Even though Decker was demoted from the position of Captain of the ship to the ship's Executive Officer, I wondered why it was necessary for Kirk to reduce Decker's grade to Commander as well, albeit only temporarily.
Even if he had allowed Decker to keep his rank of captain, Admiral Kirk would still have outranked Decker. So there would still have been no ambiguity as to who was in charge. The reduction in Decker's rank seemed almost like adding insult to injury.
What made it particularly odd was that one of the most famous Star Fleet engineers just happened to be on board as well. Maybe Kirk thought that he would be able to get down to the bowels of the ship faster than Scotty. Sad to say, but Scotty did look greatly out of shape. Time was of the essence in that situation.
It's strange Kirk could do that without probable cause; and he was incompetent as acting Captain. Every officer on the bridge were acting like cheerleaders as he grand stands, and being immature. His impatience almost lead the crew to their deaths... before even traveling to V'ger. That alone Will Decker had the just cause to relieve Kirk from acting command. None of the officers blinked or questioned Kirk's ignorance besides Decker patronizing him. I guess it just had to be because the writing said so, as bad as the movie was.
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I didn't recognize Kirk in that film.
Which was sort of the point, I guess: character development.
Kirk demoting Decker might be argued to follow from Kirk himself being demoted. He got command of the ship through dirty politics, having descended into villainy between TOS and TMP; he may have had to pay a price for that, being demoted himself from Rear Admiral to Captain, nothing voluntary about that. He'd then pass on the bitter pill under the excuse of his temporary exceptional powers.
As for ST:GEN, I see nothing wrong with Kirk abandoning the bridge as such. It wasn't his bridge, he had no formal right to command, and he'd have been the first to acknowledge that, always having been a stickler to rules despite appearances. Had he tried to oust Harriman, he'd not be hanged for mutiny, but only because he was a civilian...
What is odd about that scene is Kirk being qualified to mess with the deflector (or even recognize the need to go down there to fiddle with "the relays" when a "resonance burst" is sought). I couldn't even see Scotty being up to date on that stuff, although he at least may have viewed the specs of the original Excelsior (with disdain, but still). But there were two tech assignments simultaneously: fix the deflector, hold the ship together. And Scotty is definitely better at the latter feat!
Timo Saloniemi
Kirk demoting Decker might be argued to follow from Kirk himself being demoted. He got command of the ship through dirty politics, having descended into villainy between TOS and TMP; he may have had to pay a price for that, being demoted himself from Rear Admiral to Captain, nothing voluntary about that. He'd then pass on the bitter pill under the excuse of his temporary exceptional powers.
As for ST:GEN, I see nothing wrong with Kirk abandoning the bridge as such. It wasn't his bridge, he had no formal right to command, and he'd have been the first to acknowledge that, always having been a stickler to rules despite appearances. Had he tried to oust Harriman, he'd not be hanged for mutiny, but only because he was a civilian...
What is odd about that scene is Kirk being qualified to mess with the deflector (or even recognize the need to go down there to fiddle with "the relays" when a "resonance burst" is sought). I couldn't even see Scotty being up to date on that stuff, although he at least may have viewed the specs of the original Excelsior (with disdain, but still). But there were two tech assignments simultaneously: fix the deflector, hold the ship together. And Scotty is definitely better at the latter feat!
Timo Saloniemi
I did. Someone who was pressing, as McCoy puts it, trying to justify being the captain again.
Someone pointed out that when the 20th century Air Force Captain Christopher was aboard the Enterprise, they issued him a lieutenant's shirt, his equivalent rank, Navy-style.
Argh! That's annoying. I never noticed this. It makes no sense.
Someone in the costume department maybe had a brain fart?
I don't think he wore that particular jacket after his promotion to captain. I imagine someone in the costume department simply forgot to change the pin at the end of The Voyage Home.
Except that they were consistent about it, because he had his commander's bars on his bomber jacket at the beginning of the film, even though he wore them with captains' bars through the latter half of TSFS.
As an analogy, Colonel and Brevet Major General Nelson A. Miles was on the trail of a group of hostile Sioux in 1877 when the trail split. Miles divided his command and led the group that followed the smaller trail while putting Lieutenant Baldwin, who had more experience fighting Indians, in command of the larger force that followed the larger hostile trail. An army lieutenant is the equivalent of a lieutenant junior grade in the navy. Special circumstances can put an officer in a more important command than is usual for his rank.
Is it absolutely certain that Pike was in command of the same Enterprise as Kirk commanded in TOS episodes? It did have about half the crew size. Perhaps it was a smaller and less important class of ship that only looked like a constitution class ship on the outside because all starships had the same general appearance.
Possibly the Federation has hundreds of starships of various classes that all look like Constitution class on the outside, assigned to Starfleet, Starfleet Reserves, UESPA, Vulcan High Command, planetary defense forces, etc. etc., and possibly only 12 or 13 are like Kirk's Enterprise in being Constitution class starships assigned to five year missions to seek out new life and new civilizations. Thus Pike's Enterprise might not have been one of the most powerful in the fleet.
And, given that UESPA and Starfleet are related agencies that work together, there is some evidence in "The Cage" that the Enterprise and its crew are more directly in the service of UESPA and Earth and more indirectly in the service of Starfleet and the Federation, while in TOS the Enterprise and its crew have been transferred and are more directly in the service of Starfleet and the Federation and more indirectly in the service of UESPA and Earth.
Remember that to someone as old (however old that was) as Commodore Mendez Pike and Kirk seemed to be the same age. But Pike was the "captain" (in the sense of skipper and commanding officer) of Enterprise thirteen years before "Menagerie", and Kirk was only a captain for a few months or years before "Menagerie". And Kirk was also supposed to be the youngest starship captain in Starfleet so far.
One way to get around this paradox is to suppose that Pike was a few years older than Kirk and was a lieutenant in UESPA and/or Starfleet when he became the commanding officer of the Enterprise sometime before "The Cage" and was promoted to lieutenant commander, commander, and finally captain, and was at least a little bit older than Kirk when he was commissioned a captain.
Another possibility is that Pike had two different ranks of different types at the same time. For example, Pike might have had different ranks in UESPA and in Starfleet, just as, during the US Civil War, many officers had different ranks simultaneously in the United States Army (USA) and in the United States Volunteers (USV). So possibly regulations allowed Pike to command in his higher rank but made him wear the insignia of his lower rank.
We note that in "Hero Worship" when LaForge was a lieutenant commander and chief engineer, Data, who doesn't make mistakes, called him "Lieutenant LaForge". Thus LaForge seems to have been both a lieutenant and a lieutenant commander simultaneously and it must have been proper to refer to him by either rank.
Another difference in ranks during the 19th century was between substantive ranks, that officers were, for example, paid in, and brevet ranks that were sort of honorary. After 1869 regulations allowed officers to wear the uniforms and insignia of their brevet ranks when off duty and to be addressed by their brevet ranks. Thus on June 25, 1876, Lieutenant Colonel and Brevet Major General G. A. Custer is quoted as addressing Captain Benteen by his highest brevet rank as "Colonel Benteen".
In the move Fort Apache Lieutenant Colonel Thursday arrives at Fort Apache wearing the frock coat of a major general and Captain York calls him "General Thursday". Thursday says his rank is the rank he is paid in, lieutenant colonel, and York explains that the remembers Thursday from the war as a general. But if York doesn't arrest Thursday for impersonating a general he would be violating army protocol if he doesn't call Thursday "General Thursday". A lieutenant colonel didn't have the right to wear a major general's coat unless he was a brevet major general, and if he was a brevet major general he had the right to be addressed as general. So that scene is very weird.
As I said, army officers had the right to wear the uniforms and insignia of their brevet ranks while off duty after 1869, and even when on duty before 1869.
So possibly in TOS where some officers are called lieutenant commanders and wear the insignia of full commanders, they might have two different ranks of different types. Regulations might require that they be referred to by their lower ranks of lieutenant commander but allow them to wear the insignia of their higher ranks of commander.
And perhaps Pike also ears the insignia of his lower rank but commands the Enterprise in his higher rank in "The Cage".
Some of us may remember Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea, where Admiral Nelson commanded the voyages, expeditions, and missions, but Captain Crane commanded the submarine Seaview. And some of us may remember the space opera Mission to the Stars where the vast space battleship Star Cluster with a crew of thousands was commanded by a grand captain with 28 subordinate captains in command of various departments. And some of us may remember that there were five captains of the Zeppelin Company aboard the Hindenburg when it burned.
I'm thinking there aren't an awful lot of us that remember the Hindenburg
I mean we may be some crotchety old dinosaurs... but we're not that old
Actually this may not be much of a problem. With regard to Scotty's bars in TVH, I think this may be a case of the paperwork hadn't caught up with the promotion. So for a long winded description:
Scotty seems to only find out about his promotion shortly before Kirk and crew steal the Enterprise*. We can infer that Scotty's promotion had not yet formally become effective. Since his "wisdom" was urgently needed on Excelsior, Admiral Morrow may have had Scotty start wearing the Captain bars on an implicit understanding that once it became "official" they'd backdate the paperwork. Being Commander of Starfleet, and with all the secrecy in response the Genesis situation (and possibly Excelsior) he might have elected to delay filing paperwork until he got everyone from the Enterprise situated where he wanted so he could contain the story and hopefully prevent more rumors.
Of course, once Scotty egregiously violated regulations by sabotaging Excelsior, helping to steal & destroy the Enterprise, then going AWOL, the paperwork on his promotion might very well have been put on hold pending review and/or court-martial. While we aren't shown how much communication Kirk & crew had with Starfleet Command (if any) between TSFS & TVH, Scotty could easily surmise that that "handshake agreement" he had with Morrow was effectively toast at this point. Even if he had not received explicit instructions to do so officially, Scotty would not have wanted to add insult to injury by sporting a rank he didn't rightfully have. Since Scotty was forced to make the trip back in uniform he arrived on Vulcan with, he would at least have have taken whatever means possible to procure the appropriate insignia pin (it couldn't be that hard to fabricate something close in appearance).
For the trial, and trip to the Enterprise-A at the end of TVH, Scotty could have used one of the uniform he had already. By the time TFF begins, his promotion finally came through.
*It isn't explicitly stated that the briefing scene with Morrow in TSFS is the first time Scotty learns of the promotion. However, the way Scotty openly declines the Commander of Starfleet and requests a counter-assignment in front of the entire Enterprise crew, along with Kirk originally thinking he was to be taking the Enterprise back out with Scotty overseeing the refit, makes it look like nobody on the Enterprise knew about that promotion before Morrow announced it. With the Federation was dealing with the political fallout of the Genesis fiasco, and the promotion being tied to a post on an experimental vessel, Morrow likely opted to wait until he had the Enterprise crew back and dispatched on leave to spring the news.
Scotty seems to only find out about his promotion shortly before Kirk and crew steal the Enterprise*. We can infer that Scotty's promotion had not yet formally become effective. Since his "wisdom" was urgently needed on Excelsior, Admiral Morrow may have had Scotty start wearing the Captain bars on an implicit understanding that once it became "official" they'd backdate the paperwork. Being Commander of Starfleet, and with all the secrecy in response the Genesis situation (and possibly Excelsior) he might have elected to delay filing paperwork until he got everyone from the Enterprise situated where he wanted so he could contain the story and hopefully prevent more rumors.
Of course, once Scotty egregiously violated regulations by sabotaging Excelsior, helping to steal & destroy the Enterprise, then going AWOL, the paperwork on his promotion might very well have been put on hold pending review and/or court-martial. While we aren't shown how much communication Kirk & crew had with Starfleet Command (if any) between TSFS & TVH, Scotty could easily surmise that that "handshake agreement" he had with Morrow was effectively toast at this point. Even if he had not received explicit instructions to do so officially, Scotty would not have wanted to add insult to injury by sporting a rank he didn't rightfully have. Since Scotty was forced to make the trip back in uniform he arrived on Vulcan with, he would at least have have taken whatever means possible to procure the appropriate insignia pin (it couldn't be that hard to fabricate something close in appearance).
For the trial, and trip to the Enterprise-A at the end of TVH, Scotty could have used one of the uniform he had already. By the time TFF begins, his promotion finally came through.
*It isn't explicitly stated that the briefing scene with Morrow in TSFS is the first time Scotty learns of the promotion. However, the way Scotty openly declines the Commander of Starfleet and requests a counter-assignment in front of the entire Enterprise crew, along with Kirk originally thinking he was to be taking the Enterprise back out with Scotty overseeing the refit, makes it look like nobody on the Enterprise knew about that promotion before Morrow announced it. With the Federation was dealing with the political fallout of the Genesis fiasco, and the promotion being tied to a post on an experimental vessel, Morrow likely opted to wait until he had the Enterprise crew back and dispatched on leave to spring the news.
"How Many Captains Per Starship?"
None. Zero.
In TMP, there were, ironically, no captains (rank wise) on board the Enterprise, as far as I could tell, after Kirk demoted Decker to commander.
Captain Benteen transcended his rank. He became a god. Or rather he developed a god-complex. Oops. Wrong show. I was thinking of the Twilight Zone.
Your post reminded me of the TZ episode, "On Thursday we leave for home". ... Benteen, Thursday.
None. Zero.
In TMP, there were, ironically, no captains (rank wise) on board the Enterprise, as far as I could tell, after Kirk demoted Decker to commander.
Captain Benteen transcended his rank. He became a god. Or rather he developed a god-complex. Oops. Wrong show. I was thinking of the Twilight Zone.
Your post reminded me of the TZ episode, "On Thursday we leave for home". ... Benteen, Thursday.
