• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

The Federation Prime Directive; Non Interfere Policy

I do think that the great powers of Alpha and Beta quadrant have spheres of influence that are not part of their de jure territory, but nevertheless are generally considered to be their business. I'm sure Federation has loads of worlds under its protection, many times completely unbeknownst to the primitive inhabitants of said worlds.

Agreed. I've always liked FASA's notion, which might have also been suggested by other contemporary sources, that there were worlds within Federation boundaries that were either not full members (associate members, with fewer privileges and responsibilities) or non-member worlds that, in some cases, had been incorporated to shield them from the influence of the Klingons or Orions. Not all of them were necessarily primitive compared to the movie-era Federation, but they weren't necessarily interested in official membership at that point either.

You're mixing together two episodes.

In the case of the colonists who Picard was order to move, my impression is that they were outside the Federation's borders. They basically moved into a warzone of contested territory inbetween the Fedration and the Cardassian union, both of whom wanted to acquire it. After the Federation and the Union divided it up, they agreed to remove colonists from the other territory.

Now strictly speaking did the Federation have the legal right to do this ... probably not.

But they were willing to illegally drag the colonists out in order to accomplish peace. In the case of the colonist that Picard was supposed to drag out, they asked (and the Cardassians agreed) to be allowed to stay on a Cardassian planet.


It's been a while since I've seen the ep myself, but IIRC the problem was that the Fed/Cardassian war caused problems on a number of border worlds, and the two governments eventually agreed to swap some of them to help create peace. So the Native American group might have originally settled on an undisputed Federation world, but wound up being forced to leave it to the Cardassians or submit to their government, which they ultimately did.

For whatever reason both the Federation and the Klingons sincerely believed the Empire was on its last days with the loss of Praxis and I see no evidence whatsoever that contradicts this. Consider also that the Romulans only attack in force when they sense weakness, then Khitomer and Narendra are both indicators that those early estimates were right on the money.

Perhaps you'd be willing to agree to disagree on this point, because while I understand some of your points, I also agree (with no disrespect intended) that you're reading details that aren't necessarily there. I've never interpreted the situation in TUC to be one where the Klingons were literally on the verge of extinction, nor do I think they would have been entirely unwilling or unable to solve the problem so that Qo'Nos is still habitable (or if that fails, so that some other imperial world can become the new capital). Certainly it makes sense that neither party was comfortable with a "new era" of cooperation, but I'm willing to bet the Feds made at least some inroads before the TNG era. Otherwise, the TNG Empire wouldn't be a major power on par with the Feds, Romulans, or others, and wouldn't be as willing to allied with the Federation.

Or so Picard tells Garrett, in a bid to convince her to go on a suicide mission. Trouble is, it's a bit of a stretch to say a war can "go badly" for a whole twenty two years without one side or the other ever achieving victory. Very few wars in history ever actually last that long and the few that do are actually protracted rebellions/insurgencies by a decimated population with nothing to lose against a tactically superior opponent that can't really afford to win.

It depends on how the war is being fought by both sides, and we don't know most of those details. Alt-Yar says that by 2366, more than half of the Starfleet has been lost to the Klingons and Picard says that defeat is now considered inevitable within six months, though the Feds obviously don't want it public yet. I think therefore the Klingons managed to win some strategic victories that ultimately made them more likely to win, and Riker says there have been significant Starfleet victories as well (Archer IV in this timeline).

We also don't know to what extent "neutral" powers might have had an influence, like the Romulans. We saw in "Redemption" that Sela's forces were supplying the Duras faction with supplies crucial to their victory, and with which they might have won had not the Feds cut off the supply line. That sort of politics can play a huge role, as we also saw with the Dominion War (Sisko had to pull out all the stops to get the Romulans on the allied side, since they had signed a non-aggression pact with the Dominion). The Cardassian government under Dukat allied with the Dominion, and later switched sides at Damar's urging when they realized that their alliance was no longer on an "equal" basis.

It seems there were exactly two possibilities:
1) The Klingons finally decide to make a formal alliance with the Federation (stopping just short of actually becoming members) and the Federation quickly mobilized to help them save their planet. This formed the basis of the relationship that lasted for decades and was solid enough that they even were able to restore that friendship after being tricked into shooting at each other by the Dominion.
2) The Klingons tell the Federation where they can shove it and decide to go down fighting; they go on the rampage trying to conquer whatever territory they can because, fuck it, do or die! After twenty two years, with a combination of terrorism, hit and run tactics, ambush tactics and occasional fleet action they've finally managed to carve out a chunk of territory in what used to be Federation space and Starfleet hasn't been able to drive them out of it; they're fortifying that territory daily, and if Starfleet can't drive them out in the next six months, it's clear they never will.

This isn't a war between evenly matched powers, because evenly-matched powers don't waste two decades fighting a protracted and indecisive military conflict.

I'd say, for the reasons I mention above, there are more than just these two possibilities. Evenly matched powers, and even very strong empires, can spend a long time fighting if they're not stupid enough to waste their resources carelessly and they have enough leadership to provide at least some victories, perhaps even strategic or decisive ones. Napoleon, like many other conquerors, might have suffered from no small amount of hubris after he became emperor, but it's fair to say he also earned his place as a great warrior. Had he made different choices and not overextended himself in Russia, things might have turned out much differently for Europe.

I'm becoming tempted to move this thread into GTD, since it seems more of the discussion has to do with the political aspects of the PD and not the technological aspects that might play into them. I know it's a difficult element to separate, especially when the canon sources have fudged the PD so often.
 
The main problem with the whole idea is that if you are going to interfere you have to interfere equally on all sides.

Well, you really don't. You can interfere however you like. You simply don't know the ramifications of any actions you take for decades or centuries. Witness the interference of Mark Jameson on Mordan IV. He armed both sides of a conflict and it took another four decades for them to finish their war.
 
I'm becoming tempted to move this thread into GTD, since it seems more of the discussion has to do with the political aspects of the PD and not the technological aspects that might play into them.
Sounds like a good call.
 
If Starfleet or anyone else REALLY wants to uphold non interference policy, there shouldn't even be secret survey parties on alien planets. One little change can go unnoticed but can over time have huge effects.
 
That demonstrated the smugness of their position. We don't interfere, we just walk around your planet in invisible suits or diusguises. Meanwhile, in the episode "First Contact", they're quick to inform the Malcorians of their presence in the galaxy and the opportunity of potentially joining the Federation. If they don't want to interfere then why so eager to be the first space faring people they encounter? To be the first to say hello? How is that protecting the Federation?
 
Meanwhile, in the episode "First Contact", they're quick to inform the Malcorians of their presence in the galaxy and the opportunity of potentially joining the Federation. If they don't want to interfere then why so eager to be the first space faring people they encounter? To be the first to say hello? How is that protecting the Federation?
Because they gave the Malcorian government the CHOICE whether or not to open relations with the Federation or to suspend their space exploration program until they were socially and politically stable enough to deal with it. It wasn't really a binary choice, the Malcorians could just as easily have decided to declare war on the Federation for no particular reason, but making initial (and very low-level) contact NOW is a way of preventing problems later.

What, as it happens, would have been the ideal move for a Starfleet that DIDN'T hold to the Prime Directive? What exactly does "feel free to interfere with them as much as you like" make easier about that situation?

If Starfleet or anyone else REALLY wants to uphold non interference policy, there shouldn't even be secret survey parties on alien planets. One little change can go unnoticed but can over time have huge effects.
Strictly speaking, the Prime Directive is about choices. Interference with primitive cultures is prohibited because they are not in a position to make an informed choice about the best way to deal with the consequences of that contact. Strictly speaking, doing things that AFFECT those cultures in some significant way is still allowable, just as long as they don't know you did anything and don't have to deal with the implications. This, again, is evident in Kirk's decision to save the people on Nibiru: stopping the supervolcano doesn't violate the prime directive, but showing them the Enterprise does.
 
"Strictly speaking, the Prime Directive is about choices."

Therein lays problems. To many by to many.
 
Because they gave the Malcorian government the CHOICE whether or not to open relations with the Federation or to suspend their space exploration program until they were socially and politically stable enough to deal with it. It wasn't really a binary choice, the Malcorians could just as easily have decided to declare war on the Federation for no particular reason, but making initial (and very low-level) contact NOW is a way of preventing problems later.

How is that NOT interfering though. Every other species left them alone and yet the Federation are apparently the ones with a non interference policy. ??

What, as it happens, would have been the ideal move for a Starfleet that DIDN'T hold to the Prime Directive? What exactly does "feel free to interfere with them as much as you like" make easier about that situation?.

Do exactly the same thing but this time... admit, you're looking for allies in the galaxy.
 
How is that NOT interfering though.
Because the Malcorians are still free to choose what direction they want to go and accept the consequences of that choice as being 100% theirs. Starfleet can't make the choice on their behalf.

You can ask an accountant to help you file you income taxes or you can just ask him for advice, or you can tell him "thanks but no thanks" and do it all yourself. The accountant isn't "interfering" with your income taxes at all unless he involves himself in a way you haven't asked him to.

Do exactly the same thing but this time... admit, you're looking for allies in the galaxy.
They ARE looking for allies in the galaxy. They've never claimed they weren't. And that has nothing to do with the Prime Directive.

That Directive is Starfleet's first general order; it is the law that prohibits Starfleet officers from involving themselves in the internal politics and/or natural development of civilizations outside of the Federation. It's binding on STARFLEET, not on civilians, not on politicians, and probably not even on the military forces of individual Federation members.
 
Because the Malcorians are still free to choose what direction they want to go and accept the consequences of that choice as being 100% theirs. Starfleet can't make the choice on their behalf.

They would have been able to do all that without Picard smugly telling them that they're free to choose. That's the thing about being told you're free to choose by a hugely powerful force; it kinda makes you wonder... If I'm free to choose, why are you here influencing my choice?

You can ask an accountant to help you file you income taxes or you can just ask him for advice, or you can tell him "thanks but no thanks" and do it all yourself. The accountant isn't "interfering" with your income taxes at all unless he involves himself in a way you haven't asked him to.

If the accountant offered me these choices... after coming to my house out of the blue, I would be very suspicious.

They ARE looking for allies in the galaxy. They've never claimed they weren't. And that has nothing to do with the Prime Directive.

They're putting pressure on a civilisation that otherwise would not have experienced that pressure. I don't see how that could be construed as "non-interference."

That Directive is Starfleet's first general order; it is the law that prohibits Starfleet officers from involving themselves in the internal politics and/or natural development of civilizations outside of the Federation. It's binding on STARFLEET, not on civilians, not on politicians, and probably not even on the military forces of individual Federation members.

And yet they seem to get around it when it suits them. First Contact being an example of that
 
It was hard to decide to whether to post this here or in the worst command decision thread. As the subject of the bad decision is Prime Directive, I put this here. Picard is my favourite captain, and I usually agree with his high-minded moral decisions, but in 'Homeward' he completely drops the ball. I was really glad that Nikolai Rozhenko disobeyed him.

I don't think Prime Directive is stupid, but here it is applied completely reprehensibly. In 'Homeward' Picard would let Boraalans die, because saving them would break the Prime Directive. Really? This is utterly idiotic and completely morally unsustainable position. Who benefits from such interpretation of Prime Directive?
 
It was hard to decide to whether to post this here or in the worst command decision thread. As the subject of the bad decision is Prime Directive, I put this here. Picard is my favourite captain, and I usually agree with his high-minded moral decisions, but in 'Homeward' he completely drops the ball. I was really glad that Nikolai Rozhenko disobeyed him.

I don't think Prime Directive is stupid, but here it is applied completely reprehensibly. In 'Homeward' Picard would let Boraalans die, because saving them would break the Prime Directive. Really? This is utterly idiotic and completely morally unsustainable position. Who benefits from such interpretation of Prime Directive?

"Homeward" was one I use to bang on for its handling of the Prime Directive. While Picard does come off as pretty callous, he really can't save the Boraalans. There's nothing he can do to save them from their deteriorating atmosphere, he also likely can't get enough of them off the planet in the time available to have a viable genetic pool going forward. I think in this instance, Rozhenko is just delaying the inevitable. YMMV.
 
Well, they ended up saving some of them. They probably could have saved more had Picard not dragged his feet.
 
In 'Homeward' Picard would let Boraalans die, because saving them would break the Prime Directive.
It would be different if (for whatever reason) the Boraalans had made the collective decision to die with their world.

Supposedly (non-canon), the Enterprise Dee had a evacuation capacity of 15,000 people, if Picard had decided to do so, the ship could have saved many more people than it did. The experience would have likely changed the Boraalans who were moved in such a fashion, but they would have survived the move.

There's no way around it, the Boraalans would have been "interfered" with.

 
Last edited:
Supposedly (non-canon), the Enterprise Dee had a evacuation capacity of 15,000 people...

I actually do believe this is supported by "The Ensigns of Command", where they quote that it would take three days to beam the colony up. If the transporters were working.
 
They would have been able to do all that without Picard smugly telling them that they're free to choose. That's the thing about being told you're free to choose by a hugely powerful force; it kinda makes you wonder... If I'm free to choose, why are you here influencing my choice?

As Picard said, the Malcorians were going to be going into inhabited space soon and all observations suggested that they'd react negatively to encountering other lifeforms. So they figured that rather than risk a violent confrontation later on it was better for everyone if they tried to make contact then and there with their leadership before the general populace found out.
 
Yeah... Interfering.

What business is it of the Federation how these people react to discovering they're not alone in the universe?
 
What business is it of the Federation how these people react to discovering they're not alone in the universe?

This.

Humanity became tired of Vulcan hand holding, so they head out into the cosmos to do the same exact thing?
 
It should also be remembered that the decisions in 'First Contact' to create relations with Malcorians and in 'Homeward' to let the Boraalans perish, weren't probably done by Picard, but Starfleet and Federation. So maybe Picard is not the only one responsible. Perhaps he was just obeying orders...
 
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top