Babylon 5

[Jan]

The situation is thrice complicated by the aforementioned pacing issue, the unexpected departure of Claudia Christian (I forget the ins and outs of this, but frankly, I don't care. Bottom line: probably money)

I remember them but I'm not going there - it's water under the bridge.

requiring the introduction of a new character

...who had the unfortunate quality of not being Ivanova which prejudiced many fans against her before the season ever started.

and JMS's notes on season 5 being "lost" by some hotel staff during a convention (also where he found out about Claudia IIRC) and having to recreate them all from memory.

True - though I'm not sure why 'lost' was in quotes. The index cards with JMS notes about the episodes were thrown out by hotel staff when they changed his room at the direction of the convention who'd booked it.

I think this is also about when Doug Netter (the other executive producer besides JMS) decided to fire the effects company that's been with them the whole time (who were instantly hired by Star Trek for the final seasons of DS9 & Voyager), poach a few junior team members and start his own in-house company to do it all on the cheap.

Nope, that was between three and four.

So no, don't skip it.

As for everyone else in this thread, I'd urge you NOT to start up the old discussions about mopy people and silly haircuts and let Kail go in with an open mind without our hangup imposing on his experience.

I second the motion!

 

[Reverend]

True - though I'm not sure why 'lost' was in quotes. The index cards with JMS notes about the episodes were thrown out by hotel staff when they changed his room at the direction of the convention who'd booked it.

Only so far as I got the impression that there was some question as to whether the notes were removed through misunderstanding or some half-arsed theft, given the proximity of the convention.
Probably more fan generated controversy that's just muddied the waters. Like I said, I never looked too deeply into this. To put it bluntly this kind of gossip bores me to no end.

Nope, that was between three and four.

I stand corrected. After a while it's hard to keep this all straight in my head.

 

[Kail]

Thank you everybody with your insights on season 5 without any spoilers on season 4, which I am very much looking forward to! This better be good, because you guys have really built it up!

I don't think I've remarked on the alien make up/FX on this show. They seem to be the very best of any TV show I can think of. Right out of the gate on season one I was taken by their quality. Top notch.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Wouldn't you have to take that up with JMS?

He's not here.

 

[Jan]

He's not here.

But in a bit of accidental hilarity, my initials are JMS.

Reverend, there may have been fan talk about the cards incident but JMS never said anything about it being anything other than an issue with the hotel and the con deciding that he had to move.

 

[JWPlatt]

I don't think I've remarked on the alien make up/FX on this show. They seem to be the very best of any TV show I can think of. Right out of the gate on season one I was taken by their quality. Top notch.

Far superior to Star Trek's philosophy of forehead bumps of the week, which seems lazy to me (or budgetary, but if B5 could do it well, and within budget, why not Trek?).

 

[Kail]

Far superior to Star Trek's philosophy of forehead bumps of the week, which seems lazy to me (or budgetary, but if B5 could do it well, and within budget, why not Trek?).

I agree. If it's not the money, It must boil down to the company doing the work, or the artists involved.

 

[Tribbles and Bits]

I remember liking Season 5, but I remember the move to TNT sneaking by me so I missed the beginning of the season. I liked Lochley when she was brought in. I was ready to dive right into Crusade and I was sad that show did not last longer. I bounced hard off of Legend of the Rangers though...I went in excited, but I remember hating just about everything LotR did. The Tae Bo tactical interface of the ship was a stand out of badness to me.

I just finished season 1 of my own rewatch. I'm almost glad I only saw a few episodes back in the 90s because I am really enjoying them now. I definitely missed Chrysalis the first time around...wow. It was much different coming to the Londo and G'Kar dynamic later in the series.

 

[JWPlatt]

The Tae Bo tactical interface of the ship was a stand out of badness to me.

I'm not sure how to interpret or approach this. I can't decide which possible reply to use so I'll offer a choice:

Version 1 of my reply:
I was shocked to find the word "badness" instead of "ludicrousness."

Version 2:
By "badness," do you mean that literally?

Version 3:

The Tae Bo tactical interface of the ship was laughable.

Fixed that for you.

 

[Jan]

I agree. If it's not the money, It must boil down to the company doing the work, or the artists involved.

One other thing is how much B5 did in the way of all-encompassing prosthetics and the chemicals involved. There are *lots* of actors who can't/won't deal with that sort of thing. One of the actresses who was supposed to play G'Kar's aide freaked out and quit before getting in front of a camera and as I recall, One reason Julie Caitlyn Brown left was the effects of the glues and solvents on her face.

 

[tomalak301]

I don't want to Spoil season 5, so I will just say Season 5 felt like 2 seasons in 1. You had Season 5 A and Season 5 B. If you can get past Season 5 A, Season 5 B feels really rewarding and that's why I defend the season as a whole. There are some decent episodes in the first half, but by episode 8 or so, Season 5 comes back to the quality of Season 4.

 

[Tribbles and Bits]

I'm not sure how to interpret or approach this. I can't decide which possible reply to use so I'll offer a choice:

Version 1 of my reply:
I was shocked to find the word "badness" instead of "ludicrousness."

Version 2:
By "badness," do you mean that literally?

Version 3:

Fixed that for you.

Hmm...I think your post is a new example of badness .

 

[JD]

I don't think I've remarked on the alien make up/FX on this show. They seem to be the very best of any TV show I can think of. Right out of the gate on season one I was taken by their quality. Top notch.

If you think B5's makeup and alien effects are good, wait until you see Farscape. Having the Jim Henson Creature Shop behind them allowed them to do some really awesome aliens.

 

[Reverend]

Thank you everybody with your insights on season 5 without any spoilers on season 4, which I am very much looking forward to! This better be good, because you guys have really built it up!

I don't think I've remarked on the alien make up/FX on this show. They seem to be the very best of any TV show I can think of. Right out of the gate on season one I was taken by their quality. Top notch.

IIRC the make-up effects were done by Optic Nerve FX Studios, who also did the make-up for Buffy The Vampire Slayer & Angel (along with X-Files, a handful of movies and more recently, CSI:NY.) No doubt there are at least a few Emmeys decorating their lobby.

I've heard it said that there was some cross-over of make-up appliances between B5 & Buffy/Angel, though the only one I've personally noticed over the years is a vampire extra in a downbelow market scene in 'A Call to Arms'.

The designs B5 used are certainly leaps and bounds ahead of anything Trek was doing at the time. Conceptually at least, since the *quality* of Trek's make-up effects were still top notch for the time, B5 just did more alien looking designs. I think only Farscape outdid them on that front, thanks mostly to Jim Henson's people.

 

[Jan]

I've heard it said that there was some cross-over of make-up appliances between B5 & Buffy/Angel, though the only one I've personally noticed over the years is a vampire extra in a downbelow market scene in 'A Call to Arms'.

The biggest one that I remember was n'grath (no caps, per JMS, just like pak'ma'ra) and the Preying Mantis teacher on Buffy. Same head, different colors.

 

[Reverend]

Ah, the She-Mantis, of course! I don't know why that one didn't occur to me since now I look it up, it's quite obviously n'grath. Maybe because I was only thinking in terms of masks and other latex appliances, since B5 seemed to abandon puppetry after the first season (unless you count Vorlons.)

 

[Forbin]

One thing I appreciate about season 5, and it's a happy consequence of Claudia's unfortunate departure, was that Lyta was handed part of Ivanova's storyline. So in S5 we got more Pat Tallman than usual (a lot more Pat in one scene!! ), and Pat makes me happy.

As for Farscape, well, if someone made me choose between destroying my Farscape DVDs, and destroying my B5 DVDs, I'd just have to destroy that evil person instead.

 

[RJDiogenes]

I would suggest skipping ahead to the PK Tech Girl (not sure if I got that right) episode and watch from there to see if your opinion changes.

I've thought a few times of giving it another try, because it's something I really want to like. What season was that episode?

...who had the unfortunate quality of not being Ivanova which prejudiced many fans against her before the season ever started.

I liked Lochley just fine, but I always kind of wished that they had used Commander Levitt (I think that was her name).

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

P K Tech Girl was season 1 episode 5. Some of the episodes in season 1 were quite weak although they do connect to later ones -- a bit like B5 -- although not as strongly.

 

[Aeon]

Rewatched War Without End 1 & 2 and my opinion hasn't changed much. It's somehow... off. Not much, but there's some small things that add up and acting/directing wise makes it two of the "worst" episodes of the third season if one can say that out loud. It must have been a real challenge to write and direct the whole story and all the credit to JMS and Mike Vejar, but it shows.

There's tons of clunky (from now on that's my favorite word when talking about this two parter) exposition that doesn't quite flow naturally out of Mira's or anyone else's mouths because of all the hurry. Now I do understand that the characters are also in a hurry, but I mean the actual "Damn! We have to fit this whole thing in 84 minutes! Faster dialogue! More intense!" Also in this instance they are just pieces to be quickly moved around as the plot requires and you don't get that too many times in Babylon 5. There are also some cute and cheesy moments ("Well, as my great gandfater used to say: Cool!") that don't really sound very convincing for the lack of a better word. What I've read is that most of the cast were very confused of all the time jumps because obviously they didn't film this thing in chronological order and I don't know, maybe that has to do with their performance. It's really hard to explain but I just cringe a lot every time I watch WWE.

But on the bright side, when people like Bruce and Mira get out of the "technobabble time travelling stabilizer hell" like they did in the flashforward, they do just great as usual. Also special mention goes to Tim Choate and Michael O'Hare (despite him constantly blinking) who did great job after two years. And don't get me wrong, I do like WWE and love the fact that O'Hare returned and Sinclair got the send off he deserved. It's just the 20% or so that's... well, clunky.