Time for Time Travel

[Myko]

What real reason do we have for thinking that all time travel in Trek doesn't lead to alternate timelines/universes?

I agree. The contradictions that one could bring up are the instances where our crew is able to recognize changes in the timeline; City on the Edge of Forever, Yesterday's Enterprise (Guinan) and First Contact. Maybe more, but these are the ones I can think of offhand. City and First Contact both offer their own explanation for why this happens, even if they are a little unsatisfying.

Just for once I'd like to see time travel phrased in a movie not as "we have to restore the timeline" but as "we have to get ourselves to a better timeline".

 

[Tosk]

Just for once I'd like to see time travel phrased in a movie not as "we have to restore the timeline" but as "we have to get ourselves to a better timeline".

Star Trek IV. Their whole time travel mission was to make things better than they were.

 

[Timo]

The contradictions that one could bring up are the instances where our crew is able to recognize changes in the timeline; City on the Edge of Forever, Yesterday's Enterprise (Guinan) and First Contact.

Granted that the heroes themselves are not time-traveling in these three cases. But in two of them, they are within the sphere of influence of a time machine, which could make all the difference, and for me is satisfactory enough in its universality. Time machines, regardless of type, allow for choosing your timebranch; if you sit down at the controls, you get the full effect, but even if you just sit on the bumper, you get fringe benefits.

Star Trek IV. Their whole time travel mission was to make things better than they were.

And we have no evidence they succeeded (except from their own POV). They just went all the way down to a 20th century fork in the tree of timelines to get back up to the branch where Earth had 2½ whales remaining. Worf took "horizontal" shortcuts from branch to branch in "Parallels"; had the TOS heroes figured out how to do that, they could have achieved just as much as they really did in ST4, that is, relocated themselves to a nicer branch.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Myko]

In Star Trek's world it's probably a lot easier to time travel and create a nice branch for yourself than invent a device that could do that.

I wouldn't say time machines let's you choose your branch, but allow you to create a branch at a point in time and place yourself there. Travelling backwards always creates a branch, and travelling forward moves you along your current branch.

Which leads to a problem, how do you reconcile that there are now two versions of you in the new branch? In ST IV for example wouldn't there be two of the crew in 2286? One that time traveled forward from 1986 and one who didn't need to time travel back to 1986 since this timeline has whales.

 

[Tosk]

They just went all the way down to a 20th century fork in the tree of timelines to get back up to the branch where Earth had 2½ whales remaining.

They don't just arrive in a world where whales still exist, they arrive in a world where no whales existed until that very moment.

One that time traveled forward from 1986 and one who didn't need to time travel back to 1986 since this timeline has whales.

Not true, the crew arrived after the point that they originally left. They didn't make it so that the whales lived until the 23rd century, they just brought two forward with them. The need to go back still exists.

 

[Timo]

They don't just arrive in a world where whales still exist, they arrive in a world where no whales existed until that very moment.

Yet that doesn't make it the same world they left, which is my angle here.

This time they didn't create a happy timeline merely by fiddling with a past (20th century) forking of branches, they also fiddled with a later (23rd century) forking by introducing the whales, but that doesn't change the principle of all time travel being nothing but the creating of new branches. In 2285 or whatever, they created a branch by dropping out of time warp with a couple of healthy whales, rather than by choosing not to, or by dying horribly in a failed landing, or whatnot. In every other point of their existence, they created branches of other sorts, too.

Also, with Worf skills, Kirk could have selected from the infinite stock of branches so that there was one where somebody else brought the whales. I mean, if a Mirror Universe can feature all the heroes but a bit less clothing and a bit more evil, then finesse such as "Captain Styles handled it" is easily incorporated, too.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Timo]

One (A) that time traveled forward from 1986 and one (B) who didn't need to time travel back to 1986 since this timeline has whales.

Timing is everything: in any branch where our "A set of heroes" arrive in the nick of time, our "B set of heroes" feel compelled to sail to the past and become the "A set", as the whales have not yet arrived. In any whale-hauling adventure, there is a distinct lack of "complacent" branches where the heroes would not be motivated to go to the past.

Although again, by Worfing it, such a branch could be found - but that's for a slightly different set of heroes with a slightly different way of thinking (a set that no doubt exists, too).

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Myko]

Not true, the crew arrived after the point that they originally left. They didn't make it so that the whales lived until the 23rd century, they just brought two forward with them. The need to go back still exists.

Yes this is true, my bad.

I think the idea of forward time travel also creating branches at the point of arrival is what I needed to make the idea work in my mind. But I do need to find a pen and paper now and draw it out...

Star Trek IV. Their whole time travel mission was to make things better than they were.

I specifically wanted the characters to use the phrasing of getting themselves into another timeline, and selfishly realising that everyone they ever loved will be stuck in the old, doomed, timeline, but be fine with it since they are going to a better place.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

They made it clear it was an alternate universe so as not to piss off fans too much.

Let's just say, it created the alternate universe the same way old Biff returned to the original 2015.

 

[HIjol]

Ok, I took some time to try to process the changes in time that you all took the time to write about. I hope we are all in the same space-time!

One thing I am not reading here, is the cascade/multiple effect of a travel and action in time. Let's use our favorite time travel animals, Gracie and George as examples:

Kirk and crew travel in time from Universe A to a point in the past where there are whales. We cannot say for sure whether They travelled back Universe A, nor can we say they returned to Universe A. But if they did, Universe A would not necessarily be a welcoming place for whales. The ecosystem was without the whales, and the food they ate, animals they coexisted with, balance of relationship with and interaction of the creatures and plants and chemistries would likely be different. If they returned to a parallel/invisible/duplicate but not identical -down to the quantum level - Universe B, there would likely be similar changes that the whales would find challenging or impossible to cope with. Plus, if they did not return to Universe A, where the whales originally existed, albeit in Universe A's "past", then the Earth of Universe A is destroyed by the WhaleProbe. And then, the Paradox kicks in. How could they have left Universe A if it was destroyed (because they did not return to that Universe with the whales) and how could they return to a different Universe in the same circumstance -that of needing whales - if they never existed at the beginning of the whole causality because they never brought Gracie and George back to the Universe they left from?

And now, copious quantities of Michelob and pizza are called for...in all Universes!