Public perception of Star Trek?

[AdmiralShran]

He isn't a hero by virtue of being Kirk. He has to go through some tough lessons, and have a father figure to inspire and challenge him to better himself.

Kirk was a hero on virtue of having earned his position and never reliquished his wisdom.

Kirk and Spock aren't opposites - Spock and McCoy are opposites. The Dynamic really is kind of along the lines of Kirk, Spock and McCoy being one person with a logical and emotional side vying for control with Kirk representing the synthesis of these opposite extremes.

 

[fireproof78]

In TOS. In the new films, Kirk still needs to learn to be that synthesis. It gives him an origin point and humanizes him more, in my opinion, rather than the ubermench of TOS.

The new Kirk feels more like someone I know, and I like how that allows for casual audiences to better be able understand him, rather than knowing his full backstory.

And a lack of a father may seem insignificant but psychological research has indicated otherwise. That is why Kirk is so fascinating to me.

Again, YMMV, and probably will

 

[AdmiralShran]

In the new films, Kirk still needs to learn to be that synthesis

I think it's the producers deliberately ignoring it in order to create "character drama" because they're too weak to figure out how to create a crew that gets along and still has an interesting story. It was quite clear that in the 2nd movie Kirk had no respect for Spock and I'm supposed to believe Spock is somehow emotionally attached to Kirk. Nowhere have I seen a point where Kirk has given Spock a reason to have such a powerful emotional response to Kirk's death - where he can contain his emotions less than the destruction of Vulcan.

And a lack of a father may seem insignificant but psychological research has indicated otherwise.

It's not remotely insignificant - one of the many reasons vapid and amoral media is dangerous and should be shunned. The media has been the sole arbiter of the absolute dismantling of families in the United States and Europe and Abrams' crew is a part of that, not an opponent.

 

[AdmiralShran]

In TOS. In the new films, Kirk still needs to learn to be that synthesis. It gives him an origin point and humanizes him more, in my opinion, rather than the ubermench of TOS.

It takes a person of conscience to write a story with conscience. It takes a person of wisdom to write a story of wisdom. The people in charge of NuTrek have none of these things. You assume they're trying to create a story where Kirk "learns" - they're not - they're producing cheap entertainment with a side of "progressive" propaganda. In ST:Beyond they said they were going to be focused on Kirk separate from Spock and McCoy - but they were going to throw McCoy and Spock together. Probably for a cheap laugh and nothing else.

This scene explains all you need to know about the Abrams production team - note how they just throw it all out and jump to the action before they reach any sort of conclusion about the motives and behavior of Kirk during the Kobayashi Maru:

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They reach no conclusions because the authors have nothing to say about it because they're empty headed people. The point of the Kobayashi Maru being introduced in Star Trek Wrath of Khan was foreshadowing of the no-win scenario Kirk faces at the end of WoK with the loss of Spock. And, a suggestion that Kirk will, somehow, "cheat his way out" of losing Spock as well. But neither the audience nor Kirk knows this at the end of WoK.

 

[Trekkin]

They did tell us that Spock was coming back after TWOK. That's why they put on the mind-meld and the shot of the empty coffin. It had already been decided that they were doing III.

The scenario the crew faced in TWOK also wasn't a great presentation of a 'no win' scenario. Spock taking the bullet for everyone else was a third option, compared to the tests scenario of 'you all die this way' and 'you all die that way.' Also, I was under the impression the Maru test existed in that TWOK form so they could fool the fans whod been spoiled about Spock's death.

And hey, Kirk in STID didn't think he had an 'out' either.

 

[BillJ]

The media has been the sole arbiter of the absolute dismantling of families in the United States and Europe and Abrams' crew is a part of that, not an opponent.

You definitely have a unique outlook on life...

 

[Trekkin]

We all know Roddenberry was a big supporter of 'traditional' family values. Duh.

 

[BillJ]

We all know Roddenberry was a big supporter of 'traditional' family values. Duh.

You mean every traditional family doesn't have a "love instructor"?!?

 

[dahj]

You mean every traditional family doesn't have several "love instructors"?!?

FTFY

 

[Mudd]

The media has been the sole arbiter of the absolute dismantling of families in the United States and Europe and Abrams' crew is a part of that, not an opponent.

Individuals no longer willing to put up with abusive shit is the leading cause of the loosening of "traditional family" ties and values in the United States.

 

[AdmiralShran]

Individuals no longer willing to put up with abusive shit is the leading cause of the loosening of "traditional family" ties and values in the United States.

So, then, 75% of black fathers are abusive given that 75% of black children are born out of wedlock?

Keep believing the far left lies.

 

[dahj]

^^
I like that it looks like you facepalmed your own words, which really, you should have...

 

[AdmiralShran]

We all know Roddenberry was a big supporter of 'traditional' family values. Duh.

Roddenberry isn't the source of my beliefs. Neither is Berman. They're makers of a TV franchise I like.

 

[AdmiralShran]

The scenario the crew faced in TWOK also wasn't a great presentation of a 'no win' scenario. Spock taking the bullet for everyone else was a third option, compared to the tests scenario of 'you all die this way' and 'you all die that way.' Also, I was under the impression the Maru test existed in that TWOK form so they could fool the fans whod been spoiled about Spock's death.

And hey, Kirk in STID didn't think he had an 'out' either.

The "no-win" scenario was the death of his friend, not the ship itself per-se - however the ship can't be saved without someone dying. Spock doesn't give Kirk the option.

Kirk did have an out in STID - he could have checked the torpedoes as he was advised to do by his senior officers.

 

[Mudd]

So, then, 75% of black fathers are abusive given that 75% of black children are born out of wedlock?

Clearly, the awful mainstream media put them all up to it.

The decline of the American "traditional family" is anything but tragic.

 

[AdmiralShran]

Clearly, the awful mainstream media put them all up to it. The decline of the American "traditional family" is anything but tragic.

Indeed, it has been spreading outright contempt for families for many decades now. In Star Trek we got several views of the importance of parenting. I'll just attribute the rest of your spiel to ignorant misanthropy. Regardless, someone asserted that the new Trek films were about "the importance of fathers" - and that is what I was responding to.

 

[fireproof78]

It takes a person of conscience to write a story with conscience. It takes a person of wisdom to write a story of wisdom. The people in charge of NuTrek have none of these things. You assume they're trying to create a story where Kirk "learns" - they're not - they're producing cheap entertainment with a side of "progressive" propaganda. In ST:Beyond they said they were going to be focused on Kirk separate from Spock and McCoy - but they were going to throw McCoy and Spock together. Probably for a cheap laugh and nothing else.

This scene explains all you need to know about the Abrams production team - note how they just throw it all out and jump to the action before they reach any sort of conclusion about the motives and behavior of Kirk during the Kobayashi Maru:

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They reach no conclusions because the authors have nothing to say about it because they're empty headed people. The point of the Kobayashi Maru being introduced in Star Trek Wrath of Khan was foreshadowing of the no-win scenario Kirk faces at the end of WoK with the loss of Spock. And, a suggestion that Kirk will, somehow, "cheat his way out" of losing Spock as well. But neither the audience nor Kirk knows this at the end of WoK.

Actually, the beginning scene of TWOK was designed by Meyer because Spock's death was leaked, and he worked around that to craft a different story. Speaks to his craftsmanship.

Also, I'm not sure why the film has to "reach a conclusion" when you can trust the audience to engage the film and draw their own conclusions. I will stand by my assertion that the larger theme of fatherhood is very much a part of both Abrams Trek, and a part of Kirk's becoming Captain Kirk. It is a discussion of how great leaders become great, and the influences that fathers play in that role. Without the influence of George Kirk, James Kirk becomes a "rebel without a cause," not serving society but only serving himself.

Also, this is not discussing the actual original topic, so I'll bow out and save this discussion for a more appropriate thread.

 

[Franklin]

The "no-win" scenario was the death of his friend, not the ship itself per-se - however the ship can't be saved without someone dying. Spock doesn't give Kirk the option.

Kirk did have an out in STID - he could have checked the torpedoes as he was advised to do by his senior officers.

Kirk had an out in TWOK, too. He could've listened to Saavik (and regulations) and raised the Enterprise's shields when the Reliant appeared. Raise shields, realize it's Khan, avoid ambush, capture Khan or destroy him if he attacks, and end of movie.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

So, then, 75% of black fathers are abusive given that 75% of black children are born out of wedlock?

Keep believing the far left lies.

Indeed, it has been spreading outright contempt for families for many decades now. In Star Trek we got several views of the importance of parenting. I'll just attribute the rest of your spiel to ignorant misanthropy. Regardless, someone asserted that the new Trek films were about "the importance of fathers" - and that is what I was responding to.

You've been cautioned to stick to the topic of Star Trek by the mods already. Last I checked the "regressive Left," "mainstream media," and rates of children born out of wedlock are not Trek related. If you want to talk politics, take it to Miscellaneous or TNZ. This is your last verbal warning before action is taken.

Comments to PM. I don't want to hear how someone else said it first so you're justified to respond. You've been the one driving this train of thought straight off the tracks since you've arrived in the thread.

Everyone else, please get back to the subject of the public perception of Trek as well. Thank you.

 

[BillJ]

Kirk had an out in TWOK, too. He could've listened to Saavik (and regulations) and raised the Enterprise's shields when the Reliant appeared. Raise shields, realize it's Khan, avoid ambush, capture Khan or destroy him if he attacks, and end of movie.

Khan had an out as well. He could have beamed up Kirk and killed him when he retrieved the Genesis device. Beams Kirk up, kills him with his bare hands... end of movie. Or this is all moot if the Reliant crew knew how to read star charts.

Pretty much every movie is chalk full of plot problems if one looks closely enough. It is all about how engaging the characters and drama is. I find the characters and drama of Star Trek II engaging, I feel the same way about Star Trek Into Darkness.