Public perception of Star Trek?

[BillJ]

No, the whole point was "white people get promoted out of 'privilege' and not ability."

Ironic coming from such an Roberto "the cold fusion froze the volcano because it's cold fusion" Orci.

If you hate it so much, why are you wasting so much time on it?

 

[AdmiralShran]

the bridge scene in Star Wars disturbed and unnerved people

Which scene is that?

 

[Kemaiku]

A self sustaining cold fusion device would have a supercooling element, if the device was detonated without it's deuterium fuel, the only thing released would be the rapidly expanding supercooling gas/fluid, freezing anything it touched.

That was honestly a difficult thing to work out?

 

[AdmiralShran]

A self sustaining cold fusion device would have a supercooling element, if the device was detonated without it's deuterium fuel, the only thing released would be the rapidly expanding supercooling gas/fluid, freezing anything it touched.

That must have one hell of a radiator.

 

[Kemaiku]

Well, I'm sure it can be modified as needed, they already defueled it so it wasn't exactly off the shelf.

 

[Trekkin]

What is it with the continuous 'white trash' comments? When it's used solely in reference to one character being a miner, and another being from a rural community and being seen drinking at a bar once, it ends up saying less about the characters and more about someone else ifyouknowwhatimean.

And of course, we never saw TOS Kirk getting drunk at a proto-strip club with Scotty and Bones. Noooo.

 

[Paradise City]

Which scene is that?

Well, I'm reluctant to go down the spoiler road on this. But suffice to say there's a pivotal scene involving Hans Solo that singlehandedly enriches a relatively formulaic film and has the audience leaving the cinema genuinely disturbed.

Spoiler

No "magic blood" or easy-going get-out-of-jail cards such as safely reviving dead men before the credits roll.

 

[AdmiralShran]

And of course, we never saw TOS Kirk getting drunk at a proto-strip club with Scotty and Bones. Noooo.

Of course, but old Kirk is actually a successful and intelligent person - not a bar fly who happens to have friends in high places.

 

[Kemaiku]

The comics in the 80's/90's had the TOS cast constantly beaming down for a "night out" showing them literally drinking each other under the table. In their 40's at least.

They ended up in worst states than the '09 movie.

 

[BillJ]

Of course, but old Kirk is actually a successful and intelligent person - not a bar fly who happens to have friends in high places.

Apparently, Kirk had friends in high places. There was a Mallory who sponsored his admission to the Academy ("The Apple") and I don't think you make starship captain at 29-32 years of age without someone looking out for you.

 

[AdmiralShran]

Well, I'm reluctant to go down the spoiler road on this. But suffice to say there's a pivotal scene involving Hans Solo that singlehandedly enriches a relatively formulaic film and has the audience leaving the cinema genuinely disturbed.

Sorry, I thought you were talking about one of the old Star Wars. And I believe you can put things

Spoiler

in spoiler tags with {spoiler} and {/spoiler} except with brackets ("[" & "]") instead of squiggly brackets

 

[M'Sharak]

Which scene is that?

Describing it here would constitute a spoiler for those who have not yet seen The Force Awakens. Anyone thinking of doing so should be sure to make use of spoiler tags.

If you hate it so much, why are you wasting so much time on it?

Don't do that. Don't make it personal.

Heads-up to all: let's get this back now onto the topic of "Public perception of Star Trek".

If we can't manage to do that, if this has irrevocably become one more in a seemingly endless series of "everything I hate about JJ Trek" threads, then we're done, and the thread will be closed.

 

[AdmiralShran]

I don't think you make starship captain at 29-32 years of age without someone looking out for you.

In Gene Roddenberry's Trek you do. Kirk made captain first because he was extraordinarily competent - not extraordinarily well-connected.

 

[BillJ]

In Gene Roddenberry's Trek you do. Kirk made captain first because he was extraordinarily competent - not extraordinarily well-connected.

Proof?

 

[CorporalClegg]

Well, I'm sure it can be modified as needed, they already defueled it so it wasn't exactly off the shelf.

Really no need to explain it. "Cold fusion" was just a more hip way of saying "iso-cyclic flux distortion acceleration emitter."

What is it with the continuous 'white trash' comments? When it's used solely in reference to one character being a miner, and another being from a rural community and being seen drinking at a bar once, it ends up saying less about the characters and more about someone else ifyouknowwhatimean.

And of course, we never saw TOS Kirk getting drunk at a proto-strip club with Scotty and Bones. Noooo.

Really, the guy in the bar scene is basically "The Enemy Within" Kirk.

The whole nurture/nature thing is a prominent theme in both films. I mean, the two main characters are both down a parent (compared to their prime counterparts) by the end of the first act. And, not only was Kirk without George, but it's a good bet (for obvious reasons) that Winona was probably a lot different. Plus it was clearly implied that he was in an abusive relationship with his step-father or uncle or whatever Corvette Guy was supposed to be. So he never manifested all the qualities Bones/Spock described in TEW about the "good" Kirk.

However, once he did find a father figure and a proper support group of friends, he received the proper nurturing and became something resembling the classic leader Kirk.

 

[BillJ]

The whole nurture/nature thing is a prominent theme in both films. I mean, the two main characters are both down a parent (compared to their prime counterparts) by the end of the first act. And, not only was Kirk without George, but it's a good bet (for obvious reasons) that Winona was probably a lot different. Plus it was clearly implied that he was in an abusive relationship with his step-father or uncle or whatever Corvette Guy was supposed to be. So he never manifested all the qualities Bones/Spock described in TEW about the "good" Kirk.

However, once he did find a father figure and a proper support group of friends, he received the proper nurturing and became something resembling the classic leader Kirk.

Exactly.

I can understand not liking that kind of story. But I don't understand why it is so hard to grasp?

 

[AdmiralShran]

Exactly.

I can understand not liking that kind of story. But I don't understand why it is so hard to grasp?

Because regardless of what his potential might be Starfleet officers earn their positions - they are not simply put into them. Pike basically comes to a bar drunk in ST2009 and says: "your father was captain... think you can do better?" He hasn't even been through Starfleet Academy and it's suggested he can be a captain.

I'm well aware of nature vs. nurture arguments and I am not on either one side. On the contrary, I'm heavily on the nurture side which is why I find it distasteful to see Kirk targeted by nepotism instead of demonstrating extreme competence. "Nurture" isn't only what someone else does to train you, but also what you work for yourself - what you earn.

 

[CorporalClegg]

Pike suggests that, given Kirks heritage and test scores, if he applies himself, works hard, and keeps his nose clean, that he has the potential to do great things. He does and he does.

 

[AdmiralShran]

Pike suggests that, given Kirks heritage and test scores, if he applies himself, works hard, and keeps his nose clean, that he has the potential to do great things. He does and he does.

I have no such perception of this Kirk. He seems little different than when Pike finds him in the bar. He has no respect for even his senior officers and is almost contemptuous of them all. He does not note anything abnormal about Marcus' actions and it appears the entire indoctrination apparatus of Starfleet has been changed as he seems completely oblivious as to the duties of what we have previously known as Starfleet. By contrast Jim Kirk in TOS, even in the 2nd month of Star Trek is shown to be highly competent, respectful of Spock, friendly with McCoy, respectful of his duty to Starfleet and its ideals and mission, etc..

The point is - a Starfleet Captain is also a diplomat by necessisty. Kirk can't even find it in himself to respect Spock in these first two movies. How can we expect him to respect anyone else? Answer is: it doesn't matter because the writers of these movies will never challenge Kirk in ways that make Kirk uncomfortable in the way he is put in TOS (e.g. Errand of Mercy).

 

[fireproof78]

I have no such perception of this Kirk. He seems little different than when Pike finds him in the bar. He has no respect for even his senior officers and is almost contemptuous of them all. He does not note anything abnormal about Marcus' actions and it appears the entire indoctrination apparatus of Starfleet has been changed as he seems completely oblivious as to the duties of what we have previously known as Starfleet. By contrast Jim Kirk in TOS, even in the 2nd month of Star Trek is shown to be highly competent, respectful of Spock, friendly with McCoy, respectful of his duty to Starfleet and its ideals and mission, etc..

The point is - a Starfleet Captain is also a diplomat by necessisty. Kirk can't even find it in himself to respect Spock in these first two movies. How can we expect him to respect anyone else? Answer is: it doesn't matter because the writers of these movies will never challenge Kirk in ways that make Kirk uncomfortable in the way he is put in TOS (e.g. Errand of Mercy).

TOS Kirk often had little regard for superiors as well, depending on the story. He would gripe constantly to Spock regarding officers pushing them around, which of course, adds to their dynamic.

The dynamic of Kirk and Spock in the new films is far more of a lesson in opposites, with both needing to learn from the other and from their respective father figures. The fact that this commentary goes unnoticed or unremarked is interesting to me, possibly due to the label of "dumb action film."

I think that the Abrams Trek films are a lot of fun, allowing non Trek fans to enjoy it without backstory, and providing some interesting insights in to what makes Kirk Kirk. He isn't a hero by virtue of being Kirk. He has to go through some tough lessons, and have a father figure to inspire and challenge him to better himself.

Sounds like the GR ideal to me.