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Public perception of Star Trek?

They did write some fair characterisation for Nero - unlike Marcus - but Nero's backstory and his motivations and so on, struggle for space with the blasted FX and all the other things going on in that film. Nero's characterisation, if they were able to present it, is adequate but they just weren't able to present it properly. I certainly didn't know what on earth Nero was about whilst watching the film. I wasn't alone as none of my non-trek friends (who otherwise enjoyed the film) knew what Nero was about either. He was just an angry guy getting a kick out of blowin' up planets willy-nilly. I had to charge home after the film to ask wiki to get the backstory on him.

Marcus isn't a LeMay. LeMay was someway insane but he was responding to a perceived atomic threat heralded by what was understood by many to be limitless Soviet planetary expansion. The Klingons attack a couple of planets? OK but there's no sense of apocalypse posed to sweep the Fed as there was in the early atomic era in respect to America. And it's difficult to imagine LeMay pleasurably butchering his own soldiery as Marcus does in this film, which annoyed me the most about Marcus' characterisation. I saw that, I saw cartoon characterisation. As mad as LeMay was if you think that's what LeMay was about, you are misreading him. But his species of jingoistic general are gone. Generals today are defacto human resources managers and technocrats; not particularly noble figures but they're not maniacal Marcus types either.

But if you could ferret out an equivalent of Marcus from history it's by accident rather than some subtle tip-of-the-hat to some figure or other; or a moral analogy or whatever. Let's face it, Marcus is just a plainly poorly developed villain whose characterisation is too absurd to speak to us in any meaningful way.
 
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I like Mountain Dew and explosions, I also love Star Trek: The Motion Picture. Star Trek is a big enough sandbox for lots of different types of stories.

Besides, I'd rather have Mountain Dew and explosions than be bored. Which is what I was for most of the Berman years. Your Mileage May Vary.

All of the Berman-era series had plenty of explosions. One of the candidates for 'best TNG episode' is all about various attempts to blow up a Borg Cube, while said Cube carves its way through the Fleet and tries to destroy Earth. Based on DS9's 'sitting and describing the battle' scenes, the only reason they probably had so much restraint was purely based on time and budget limitations.

Every Star Trek series has caught crap for its characters. TOS's are sexist carcitures, TNG's are unlikeable pompous jerks (and also sexist), VOY's alternate between being boring/insane/fan service, DS9 and ENT's are completely forgettable, etc. Hang around this fandom long enough, and the 'this character is better than that character' arguments start to lose all meaning.
 
One of the candidates for 'best TNG episode' is all about various attempts to blow up a Borg Cube, while said Cube carves its way through the Fleet and tries to destroy Earth.

Yes, and the other best story they had was nothing but a dialogue between two Shakespearean actors.

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The fact is Roddenberry insisted that most of Trek episodes would mean something. He really sounds like he ruled with an Iron fist. Some of his stuff is pretty bad, but this forced Trek into a direction that Berman for the most part stayed true to but seemed to lose steam down the road (it happens to everyone and I don't really hate on him and Berga for it, but they should have had the humility and turned Enterprise over a lot sooner to other writers than themselves). The fact is, Star Trek would be about as memorable as Bonaza or Wagontrain or Gunsmoke today if Roddenberry just wanted a standard action show that happened to be set in space. Roddenberry really pushed it to mean something and because it meant something it stuck a lot better than most of pop culture sticks.

Hang around this fandom long enough, and the 'this character is better than that character' arguments start to lose all meaning.

Well, then I guess we have nothing to discuss.
 
Yes, and the other best story they had was nothing but a dialogue between two Shakespearean actors.

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By the time "Chain of Command" rolled around, I just didn't care anymore. The best thing about the episode for me was Ronny Cox.

Also, don't kneel too long at the altar of Roddenberry. If you do, he'll pickpocket you and try to sodomize you at the same time.
 
Chain of Command's claim to fame is torture scenes. That has nothing to do with the episodes quality or whether the scenes were needed/important/insightful/whatever, but it does tend to be the first thing that comes up about it. Patrick Stewert being strung up naked and tormented.

For eg.
http://www.slate.com/id/2217905/

That, and all the arguments over ''Was Jellico a bad captain?' and Sirtis finally being able to ditch the glorified unitards.
 
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Also, don't kneel too long at the altar of Roddenberry. If you do, he'll pickpocket you and try to sodomize you at the same time.

I'm not kneeling at anyone's alter... he died half way through TNG. Berman did his best work finishing up TNG and doing DS9. I'm simply saying Star Trek would be as memorable as any other throw-away 60's TV show if it hadn't been for Roddenberry insisting that writers be held to a higher standard thematically than other writers of the day.

What's the best "Lost In Space" episode? I don't know - I don't care - because the show was purely throw-away entertainment - it made the studio some money and nobody, 50 years later, hangs ornaments on their Christmas tree of that stupid robot from it. By contrast, I have a little plug-in shuttlecraft my parents bought me as a kid that goes on my X-mas tree every year. You push a button on the bottom and Leonard Nimoy wishes you happy holidays.

I'm not saying Star Trek is high art - but I'll be damned if most of it is as stupid as most TV.
 
Chain of Command's claim to fame is torture scenes.

Nonsense, Geordi is more severely tortured by the Romulans in "The Minds Eye." It has everything to do with the psychological dialogue.

The major extent of the torture is pushing a button, other than him hanging there.

One of the most regarded DS9 episodes not only has two punches as the entire extent of the action, it actually dares to break convention and has Sisko directly narrate to the camera in soliloquy:

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How did any of that prove that what I said was nonsense? Especially the DS9 episodes that aired after Chain...?

Also, that DS9 episode had a ship blow up. It's how Garek killed Ambassador FAAAKE! Sisko's soliloquy was just another captains log. The 'breaking convention' part was simply when he ordered it erased, and that's not exactly noteable for anyone who isn't a Trekkie.
 
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this is not the Romulan Empire - this is a bunch of children throwing a tantrum. The Romulan Empire I know doesn't need help from anyone and would resent getting it and would probably blame themselves more than anyone for trusting an outsider who so wholly failed.
Nero and crew are NOT representatives of the Empire--he explicitly states it in the film. They are civilian miners, not highly trained and disciplined troops. Their behaviour is not unlike gang members following a less than stable leader--a situation for which there are numerous real world analogues.
 
The 'breaking convention' part was simply when he ordered it erased, and that's not exactly noteable for anyone who isn't a Trekkie.

Speaking into the camera is rare on TV/Film - especially for a fictional character... I was just mentioning it in passing. It's not really a feature of the episode but adds an interesting effect nevertheless. All the action takes place "off stage" like a classical greek drama or something (a way they dealt with lack of being able to illustrate things like armies in stage theater).

All my point is that action doesn't make something good. And just because something lacks action doesn't mean it's boring. But I will likely never convince someone who really likes JJ Trek and thinks it's a good reboot of this.

Nero and crew are NOT representatives of the Empire--he explicitly states it in the film. They are civilian miners, not highly trained and disciplined troops. Their behaviour is not unlike gang members following a less than stable leader--a situation for which there are numerous real world analogues.

Somehow the fate of Romulus was entrusted to a miner and a foreigner who the Romulans consider hostile - got it.

Nero and crew are NOT representatives of the Empire--he explicitly states it in the film. They are civilian miners, not highly trained and disciplined troops. Their behaviour is not unlike gang members following a less than stable leader--a situation for which there are numerous real world analogues.

Ok, sorry, looked it up... I haven't seen 2009 ST since 2009 so I forgot... I guess Nero ended up getting the red matter from Spock's ship and didn't have it to begin with.
 
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Speaking into the camera is rare on TV/Film - especially for a fictional character...

It's really, really not. Just go watch some Laurel and Hardy.

Or, you know, TOS.
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I'm not kneeling at anyone's alter... he died half way through TNG. Berman did his best work finishing up TNG and doing DS9. I'm simply saying Star Trek would be as memorable as any other throw-away 60's TV show if it hadn't been for Roddenberry insisting that writers be held to a higher standard thematically than other writers of the day.

What's the best "Lost In Space" episode? I don't know - I don't care - because the show was purely throw-away entertainment - it made the studio some money and nobody, 50 years later, hangs ornaments on their Christmas tree of that stupid robot from it. By contrast, I have a little plug-in shuttlecraft my parents bought me as a kid that goes on my X-mas tree every year. You push a button on the bottom and Leonard Nimoy wishes you happy holidays.

I'm not saying Star Trek is high art - but I'll be damned if most of it is as stupid as most TV.
Sure. But, it isn't all equal. Each series had its good moments and bad moments and it feels like cherry picking to great the great moments and hold them up as a magical standard that all Trek must live up to.

Abrams Trek is deeper than many give it credit for, but it is just as accessible to those who don't care about Trek as it is to Trek fans. I love Nero, think he is a great character and am fascinated by his psychotic break. That's what makes him interesting. He is a PTSD broken Romulan that shows how extreme Romulan emotions can go, in contrast to Vulcan logic and control.

Marcus could have been better, but I know there are plenty real world similarities. No, I don't care about Orci's 9/11 truther whatever because that doesn't impact my enjoyment of the story or characters. If others don't care about the characters, that's fine, but I think they are missing out.

By the way, I think the public perception of Trek is mired by the fact that there is an expectation of "on the nose" commentary (racism is bad) that TOS did, rather than the more subtle weaving in 09.
 
By the way, I think the public perception of Trek is mired by the fact that there is an expectation of "on the nose" commentary (racism is bad) that TOS did, rather than the more subtle weaving in 09.

Don't try to sell me the "contemporary progressive leftism is edgy" narrative - it's not. It's completely mainstream Hollywood dogma.

Abrams Trek is deeper than many give it credit for, but it is just as accessible to those who don't care about Trek as it is to Trek fans. I love Nero, think he is a great character and am fascinated by his psychotic break. That's what makes him interesting.

25 years sitting around in space without mutiny to swing by Romulus and warn them of spontaneous supernovas is fascinating alright.

He is a PTSD broken Romulan that shows how extreme Romulan emotions can go, in contrast to Vulcan logic and control.

If Orci really wanted to be edgy he could have exposed Vulcans for vastly exaggerating Romulan savagery as appears to be the case in all of the series. The Romulans definitely aren't to be trifled with - but neither do they appear to be in any way unusually savage. For example, the writers could have discovered "the truth" - hidden all these years and passed down through Romulan myth: that Surak expelled the Romulans from Vulcan by force for refusing to embrace stoicism and so this is why Nero is driven by rage - obsessed with the 2nd time the Vulcans have deprived the Romulans of a homeworld.

But nobody on that production crew has the insight to come up with that likely true story out of the backstories of the Vulcans and Romulans.

Shoot - I messed up the formatting above and I can't edit it... So I'll repost:

Abrams Trek is deeper than many give it credit for, but it is just as accessible to those who don't care about Trek as it is to Trek fans. I love Nero, think he is a great character and am fascinated by his psychotic break.

25 years sitting around in space without mutiny to swing by Romulus and warn them of spontaneous supernovas is fascinating alright.


Abrams Trek is deeper than many give it credit for, but it is just as accessible to those who don't care about Trek as it is to Trek fans. I love Nero, think he is a great character and am fascinated by his psychotic break. That's what makes him interesting. He is a PTSD broken Romulan that shows how extreme Romulan emotions can go, in contrast to Vulcan logic and control.

If Orci really wanted to be edgy he could have exposed Vulcans for vastly exaggerating Romulan savagery as appears to be the case in all of the series. The Romulans definitely aren't to be trifled with - but neither do they appear to be in any way unusually savage. For example, the writers could have discovered "the truth" - hidden all these years and passed down through Romulan myth: that Surak expelled the Romulans from Vulcan by force for refusing to embrace stoicism and so this is why Nero is driven by rage - obsessed with the 2nd time the Vulcans have deprived the Romulans of a homeworld.

But nobody on that production crew has the insight to come up with that likely true story out of the backstories of the Vulcans and Romulans.
 
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There are always possibilities. That doesn't negate my enjoyment of the story we got.

Also, I care little about Hollywood politics or whatever "edgy narrative" you are referring to.

Your story ideas are certainly interesting, but that doesn't change my enjoyment of Nero as a character. Mileage may vary, for sure.
 
Your story ideas are certainly interesting, but that doesn't change my enjoyment of Nero as a character. Mileage may vary, for sure.

I'm just telling you what would have made Nero interesting for me and would have nodded to the Romulan/Vulcan backstory that destroying both their home worlds in one movie deserves. Instead, the destruction of Romulus and Vulcan - as far as I remember - are mostly just hardcore doses of emotional events for an overly epic plot that doesn't do justice to exterminating billions of two species.
 
I'm just telling you what would have made Nero interesting for me and would have nodded to the Romulan/Vulcan backstory that destroying both their home worlds in one movie deserves. Instead, the destruction of Romulus and Vulcan - as far as I remember - are mostly just hardcore doses of emotional events for an overly epic plot that doesn't do justice to exterminating billions of two species.
But, it was supposed to be new. It didn't have to adhere or demonstrate all the backstory. There was actually enough, given Spock's history with the Romulans he really was the only one who could serve as the liaison.

Also, there more interesting facet is the idea of social commentary about the importance of father figures in shaping great heroes like James T. Kirk or Spock. That's the thread the runs through 09 and in to STID that interests and inspires me. Also, there are plenty of nods to TOS throughout both of these films.

It may not work for all, and that's fine. Could it have been done better in some places? I'm sure it could, but the overall story, characters and commentary are satisfying and entertaining to me.
 
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