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Regarding canon: isn't it ironic?

It's actually gotten referenced tons of times recently, like in Vanguard (where we get a pretty in-depth look at how Nimbus III came to be founded) all the way up through novels like November 2014's Foul Deeds Will Rise by Greg Cox (taking place a short while after the events of the movie).

That said, it's probably more that it takes an author actually willing to reference it for story purposes, than any type of conscious, enforced continuity-shunning by CBS/Paramount.
 
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...and after Star Trek IV was released, it was noted in the lettercol that Bennett had notified them that Star Trek V would be set quite some time after the fourth film, which would give the comics some pre-determined space to exist (unlike what happened between TWOK and TSFS and TSFS and TVH).

DC did a pretty deft job squeezing their comics in between TWOK and TSFS. Their pre-movie 2-parter (the second half of which actually came out the month after the movie adaptation) even made a bit more sense of the movie by explaining why the Enterprise had considerably more battle damage at the start of TSFS than it had had at the end of TWOK. The only major discontinuity (between the comics and TSFS itself, disregarding inconsistencies that arose later) was that the question Phil Morris's character asked about a memorial service for Spock implies they haven't been back to Earth since his death, whereas the comics began with the ship back at Earth.

The attempt to segue from the comics into TVH was more awkward, because it depended on the assumption that the Klingon Bird-of-Prey had been in the Excelsior's shuttlebay the whole time, even though the issues of the Mirror Universe Saga had (correctly) showed the BoP as far too large to fit inside the Excelsior. Other than that, it was a decent effort to hit the reset button, but I just can't get past that inconsistency. Perhaps if Mike Barr had stayed as the writer, he might have avoided the mistake that Len Wein made.

Of course, this was just before Richard Arnold started intervening more strongly in those types of conversations (post-TNG debut), but it's still an interesting artifact/snapshot of the era.

Yeah... I still think the attitude toward canon was a lot more relaxed back then, not the urgent and judgmental matter that people treat it as today. And I still say that Arnold's heavy-handed approach was a major contributor to that change.


As one of the five guys on the planet who actually likes Star Trek V. Part of my ongoing sadness is the complete canon lock-out which has been maintained to prevent the events of the film from being referenced ever again in any subsequent novels or material.

Well, that's not true. A lot of things from STV have been referenced. Dayton Ward's debut novel In the Name of Honor was set just after it and referred to its events and characters. The Vanguard series showed the establishment of Nimbus III as an ongoing plot point. Klaa and Vixis appeared repeatedly in DC's post- STV comics and in Mere Anarchy: The Blood-Dimmed Tide (by those comics' second regular author, Howard Weinstein). General Korrd has appeared in the novel Sarek, the novella "The Unhappy Ones" from Seven Deadly Sins, and a few stories. Myriad Universes: The Chimes at Midnight featured an alternate-universe version of Caithlin Dar. Sybok has been mentioned in various books including my own Ex Machina and Greg Cox's recent Child of Two Worlds, and appears in alternate-timeline form in The Tears of Eridanus and a DC annual. The three-breasted felinoid species from the Nimbus III bar scene has been identified in the Mangels/Martin Enterprise novels with the Draylaxians (indicated in "Broken Bow" to be a three-breasted species).
 
<forehead slap>

Totally forgot about Greg's Child of Two Worlds too, considering I'd just recently read it. And General Korrd also appears in The Undiscovered Country novelization from what I remember, aboard Kronos One during the Gorkon assassination attempt (and getting injured during that attack).
 
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There were some pros when it came to Star Trek V but mostly cons. If I had it my way I would have stopped all Star Trek film making after the huge success of Star Trek IV:The Voyage Home.
 
There were some pros when it came to Star Trek V but mostly cons. If I had it my way I would have stopped all Star Trek film making after the huge success of Star Trek IV:The Voyage Home.

Which would suck because The Undiscovered Country remains my favorite Star Trek film.
 
True I thought of that but I would sacrifice Star Trek 6 for no Star Trek 5. Also for continuity sake.
 
Well they kept "doing it" and it got us Star Trek V, Star Trek Generations, Star Trek Insurrection.
 
..."canon" is a noun. The adjective form is "canonical."
The ship has sailed on that usage, too, as my examples show that the adjectival form was already being used and readily understood over thirty years ago--and this is just going by the examples I can easily corroborate online.

"The Great Game" in Sherlock Holmes fandom has a much higher threshold than the canon debates we're talking about here--you not only have to explain any inconsistencies, you have to fit everything into the real world and explain why events aren't part of the public record. That fandom is what really originated the idea that taking it all seriously is part of the fun, with author Dorothy Sayers even saying that to not approach it with the utmost solemnity "ruins the atmosphere."
 
Sherlock Holmes is also the best place to begin it given Sherlock Holmes pastiches were a huge thing even while Arthur Conan Doyle was alive.

"Remember when he fought Arsene Lupin?"
"That didn't happen! Not really!"
 
The ship has sailed on that usage, too, as my examples show that the adjectival form was already being used and readily understood over thirty years ago--and this is just going by the examples I can easily corroborate online.

Which is so profoundly not my point. It's not about whether things were used at all, but about shifts in emphasis and the primacy of certain ideas over others. Of course in any era there's going to be a wide range of different perceptions and usages, but which ones are widespread or dominant can change a lot over time.

That fandom is what really originated the idea that taking it all seriously is part of the fun, with author Dorothy Sayers even saying that to not approach it with the utmost solemnity "ruins the atmosphere."

But there's a difference between taking it seriously and believing that you're not permitted to read or like something at all unless the studio that owns the franchise sticks an explicit seal of approval on it. Or being an elitist snob who uses canon as an excuse to dismiss the worth of things that don't belong to the "approved" category. Or believing that there's actually some kind of studio employee whose whole job is to declare things canon, or that the creators of the show are subordinate to the people who define canon rather than being the ones who define it, or any of the dozens of other bizarre myths about canon that are frustratingly pervasive within fandom.
 
I think the mark of a true fan is also to be able to appreciate something for what it is. Superman the movie isn't canonical to Superman the comic but it's pretty damn awesome on its own. It's why i suppose I'm squarely on the fence about Trekverse-2.

In my personal canon, did Destiny happen? No, because I like the Borg and want to see them again but it's still a great book series on its own.
 
The only major discontinuity (between the comics and TSFS itself, disregarding inconsistencies that arose later) was that the question Phil Morris's character asked about a memorial service for Spock implies they haven't been back to Earth since his death, whereas the comics began with the ship back at Earth.

:wtf: Phil Morris' character is pretty clearly talking about a welcome home ceremony for the ship. Kirk is the one who connects his question to Spock's death. I agree with you that Kirk's dialogue implies that Spock's death just happened, but the trainee wasn't talking about a memorial service.

TRAINEE FOSTER: Sir, ...I was wondering. ...Are they planning a ceremony when we get in? ...I mean, a reception?
KIRK: A hero's welcome, son? Is that what you'd like? ...Well, God knows, there should be. This time we paid for the party with our dearest blood.

Besides, there had already been a memorial service for Spock at the end of TWOK.
 
Well, that's not true. A lot of things from STV have been referenced.

In the "Q Continuum" trilogy, Q's old enemy, known as 0, called forth three "friends and contemporaries", all similar entities with malevolent purposes:

(*) - from Beta XII-A, "Day of the Dove"
Gorgon - "And the Children Shall Lead"
The One (the "God Entity" from ST V).

And the writers of TNG's "The Nth Degree" have said that Barclay's aliens were intended to be the same race as ST V's "God Entiity".
 
And the writers of TNG's "The Nth Degree" have said that Barclay's aliens were intended to be the same race as ST V's "God Entiity".

Ooh, that could be a nice retcon for ST V -- maybe the Entity sent Sybok the plans for the space-folding drive to get to the center of the galaxy, but all the scenes of him modifying the engines and the ship making the jump took place while the movie was focused on Kirk, Spock, and McCoy making their jailbreak. (Although you'd have to explain why the records of the drive were unknown to the TNG crew.)

But then, The Body Electric disregarded the whole "Great Barrier/Sha Ka Ree planet" business in favor of a more scientifically accurate version of the galactic center (which I helped Dave research!). So not every aspect of the movie has been acknowledged in the tie-ins. (My personal retcon is that Sha Ka Ree was actually someplace far closer. After all, there are only three near-consecutive lines mentioning the center of the galaxy, so you could just skip those 20-30 seconds of the film and that would resolve it.)
 
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