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Regarding canon: isn't it ironic?

That is very true Christopher about debating which shot or special effect is canon. Which reminds me of an excellent point you make about Flints castle in Requiem for Methusela in the TOS remastered CGI creation vs his castle as the Rigel 7 castle stock footage used in the original the TOS episode the first time around. So it would make sense that in that case the remastered would be canon over the original stock footage use. Anyway it just came to mind!
 
When I was a kid in the 80's I always thought that all of the Star Trek novels were canon and that it was not until in the 90's I found out that the we're not. But was it known to older Trek fans back in the 80's that the novels were not canon or did we all think they were at the time?
 
My take on the subject of canon?

The Holy Novel Church split with the Eastern Orthodox Online faith over the issue of Borg Transubstantiation and Siskoian Descendance. Doctrinal splits resulting from the so called Books of Destiny have proven a decidedly controversial issue leading to numerous large and small breaks over dogma. The issue of the planet Risa's continued existence, Pluto, and the continued breathability of Sela daughter of Yarr are all notable points. Ones which could be reconciled but would require significant changes to the current decrees of both faiths. The feuding over such complicated matters, of course, helped lead to the church of the Abbramites who nailed their fundamentalist thesis to Paramount's doors and reverted all to the Pre-Where No Man Has Gone Before books, ironically meaning the controversial Archer Dogma is the only remaining continuity in their faith.
 
When I was a kid in the 80's I always thought that all of the Star Trek novels were canon and that it was not until in the 90's I found out that the we're not. But was it known to older Trek fans back in the 80's that the novels were not canon or did we all think they were at the time?

I recall as a child in the 80s my brother mentioned that Paramount had a policy of not referencing other books and deliberately going out of their way NOT to keep things consistent between volumes. Then again, Star Trek came back to the screen in 1987 and was constantly throwing out new information as the writers came up with it about the Klingons, Romulans, and so on so the novels were always destined to be non-canon in the eyes of fans.
 
But was it known to older Trek fans back in the 80's that the novels were not canon or did we all think they were at the time?

Sure, because reading the books as they were published, it was obvious that they were not always consistent. For example, a shock reveal in "Death's Angel" seemingly wrote out a known character. "Home is the Hunter" kills off Garrovick offpage, and yet he turns up alive in other novels. Several Mudd books ignore "Mudd's Passion" and/or "The Business, as Usual, During Altercations". Sulu's captaincy is in the novelizations of ST II, III and IV, but nowhere else until ST VI. It's obvious that Worf's canonical background, in 1987, ignored "The Final Reflection" and the FASA RPG. Not every Pocket novel called the Romulans "Rihannsu".

Richard Arnold began speaking on behalf of the Star Trek Office from late 1986, and that tends to be fandom's first use of the term "canon".
 
Honestly, I'm of the mind that canon is a poor choice of words for dealing with issues of "what is and isn't true in Star Trek/whatever franchise." Canon is a reference to the issue of the Holy Catholic Church's view of what is and isn't true about the nature of the universe and God. So, it's a spiritual co-opting. However, the thing is that it inherently loses some of its power when dealing with works of fiction.

Quite right. It's a metaphor to begin with, so it shouldn't be taken too seriously.

Also, defining it in terms of "true" seems misguided when talking about fiction. You can't try to judge fiction by the same standards as reality, because it's the nature of fiction to be mutable. Human storytelling has always been a changeable thing. Before widespread literacy and printing, when stories were mostly oral, they changed every time they were told -- just like human memory changes slightly every time it's recalled. What exists in our minds is intrinsically more fluid than what exists in objective reality. So you can't really talk about "truth" in a story (emotional truth, yes, but not objective, factual truth). There's just whatever interpretation the storyteller is working from at a given moment. Ideally, storytellers remember past stories well enough to create a convincing illusion of consistency, but there will always be small-scale changes, whether due to error or due to deliberate correction and refinement of past imperfections.


No, Star Wars: The Novelverse is not canon to the television show.

Lately I'm seeing a lot of people say Star Wars when they mean Star Trek. Gee, I wonder why people are so preoccupied with Star Wars lately. ;)


and Human Nature being a actual adaptation--which, ironically, caused a minor fit in the fandom because if it was showing up on the show then it couldn't have happened in the books. An odd but actual complaint.

To me it seems self-evident that the TV version overwrites the novel version, but I don't see that as a matter for moral outrage, just a matter of classification to be worked out. It would be a tricky one, though, because the novel Human Nature was part of a fairly serialized novel line whose books made constant reference to each other (indeed, that's why I lost interest in it, because I couldn't afford to collect every volume and started to feel lost when I missed some installments). So it would be hard to remove just one book without screwing up everything after it.

I wonder if people get angry about continuity changes affecting tie-ins because they believe that they're dependent on studios to declare what is or isn't "real" and thus feel they have no control over it. I've always seen it as my own personal decision whether or not to count a tie-in as part of the continuity. So if new canon (or a later tie-in I like better) comes along and requires removing a tie-in (or a whole series of them) from my personal continuity, I may well be annoyed, but I don't feel cheated or betrayed, because it was my own choice to count them in the first place. I simply have to make some new choices in response to the changes.


Do you have a better term that's equally concise? (And don't say "in continuity", that's twice as long to write and twice as long to say; who has time for that? :p )

Part of the problem is that people dwell too much on the label itself. Labels do more to get in the way of understanding than to improve it. Fictional continuity is a complicated issue, and the only way to get a real understanding is to be open to that complexity and nuance and the many factors that go into it. Trying to simplify it to a single five-letter shibboleth that somehow explains everything is a pointless exercise. "Canon" can be a convenient shorthand to use as a term of criticism, but only if you understand its limitations and the larger context in which it resides.


I recall as a child in the 80s my brother mentioned that Paramount had a policy of not referencing other books and deliberately going out of their way NOT to keep things consistent between volumes. Then again, Star Trek came back to the screen in 1987 and was constantly throwing out new information as the writers came up with it about the Klingons, Romulans, and so on so the novels were always destined to be non-canon in the eyes of fans.

That policy didn't come along until the '90s, though. In the '80s, while Pocket had no uniform continuity, there was an increasing trend for different novels to reference each other, and a loose novel continuity did emerge. The crackdown didn't happen until after TNG was around, when Roddenberry and Richard Arnold started to feel the tie-ins were creating too much confusion over what was "real" in the Trek universe. This led to the shutdown of DC's first TOS series in 1988 and its revival the following year with a more continuity-light format (in theory, though Peter David and Richard Arnold clashed extensively over the matter until David left the book after a year and a half), and to the end of the loose Pocket continuity by c. 1990. The '90s Pocket novels stuck to a pretty strict no-continuity policy for most of the decade, even well after Arnold was no longer overseeing the tie-ins. That started to erode with New Frontier and eventually with the emergence of the modern novel continuity by 2000.


Sure, because reading the books as they were published, it was obvious that they were not always consistent.

Yes, absolutely. They were often hugely inconsistent with each other, not just in continuity details but in their whole characterization of the universe. So little about the Trek universe had really been defined by TOS that there was plenty of room to fill in the background, and different authors brought their own visions and voices to it, extrapolating its technology and culture and history in different ways. That was part of what was interesting about those early novels, the fact that you never knew what you were going to get. It was like an art class where a bunch of students painting the same subject all interpret it in different styles -- one might be realist, one impressionist, one cubist, one pop art, etc. In the Arnold era, it was more like a class where everyone was required to be strictly realist. These days it's sort of in between -- we're allowed to be fairly individualistic in our expression, but since so much more of the universe is defined and codified, there are fewer areas that are open to interpretation.


Richard Arnold began speaking on behalf of the Star Trek Office from late 1986, and that tends to be fandom's first use of the term "canon".

Well, as TheAlmanac showed above, some fans were using the term before then, in '84-'85. But as I said, it was probably limited more to use by more scholarly sorts who were aware of the jargon of media/literary criticism. What Arnold did was to popularize it more widely among laypeople -- people who weren't versed in the underlying ideas and methods of analysis that went with the term and were thus prone to misinterpret and mythologize it, especially since their main referent for it was Arnold's own judgmental and fundamentalist approach to it.
 
Part of the problem is that people dwell too much on the label itself. Labels do more to get in the way of understanding than to improve it.

Oh, come on, they do not. People say this all the time, but literally every fundamental unit of communication in any medium is a label. Every word is a label. Syntax is a label. Grammar is a label. That is all that writing and speaking is: a set of labels applied to concepts in which the order of the labels is itself an additional label used to interconnect said concepts. It is impossible to communicate without using labels. Giving more nuance is literally just using more labels in order to grant more insight into the specific nature you intend by the usage of other labels. And all we can ever do is just pile label on top of label on top of label in a massive unstable house of cards and hope that someone understands what we mean, because we can't do anything else to reach them.

And in this particular case for their usage of the term "canon", you know what they mean by the term. You understand what concept they're intending to communicate. So this label did its job. :p
 
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^Yes, but those labels have meaning as part of a larger context. The problem is when people assume that knowing what to call a thing is the only important thing in understanding it. That's confusing the map with the territory. When people assume that labels define things instead of just describing them, that's when you get things like prejudice and stereotyping -- assuming that, say, if you stick the word "black" on a person, that's the one and only thing you need to know about them. That sort of labeling obviously causes people to understand less instead of more. Of course, it's nowhere near as destructive to assume that the only thing that matters about a story is whether or not you can call it "canon," but it's just as reductionistic and blinding. A label should be the beginning of the search for understanding, not its exclusive goal.
 
You know, I know we've gone around with this before, but I think I just realized where the clash was coming from: it isn't the association between "canon" and the meaning that you object to, but the fact that they don't go far enough in what they associate with the term? It isn't that you don't believe fangroups like this should use the term "canon" the way that they do, but that they leave the consequences of that meaning in stasis and they don't seek to reflect on it? That it's all right for them to have the meaning they do for the term, but they should do more to explore it? That you aren't really being prescriptive with the term, but full-on descriptive in the sense that you think they aren't evolving it enough?

Okay, that I can get behind. Honestly I probably should have realized that by now I guess, since I think this is like the third or fourth time I've pulled us into this "what even ARE words?" discussion, but I think I have a better idea where you're coming from now., so hopefully I think I can avoid pulling things into a fifth now. :p
 
You know, I know we've gone around with this before, but I think I just realized where the clash was coming from: it isn't the association between "canon" and the meaning that you object to, but the fact that they don't go far enough in what they associate with the term?

No, it's that they go too far in assuming the term is actually important, that determining whether the label "canon" can be stuck on something is the single most urgent question about it and must be argued over interminably for years on end, rather than just getting the hell over "canon" and talking about the actual work itself. It's just a description. It's not permission to like something. It's not a holy commandment handed down from on high. It's not a condemnation of things that don't belong. It's just a word that's occasionally useful in discussing certain aspects of classification.
 
...wait, then what on Earth does that have to do with if they use it as a noun or an adjective? You can do that in either form or not do that in either form, it's neither easier nor harder to do that in either part of speech.
 
Honestly, I'm of the mind that canon is a poor choice of words for dealing with issues of "what is and isn't true in Star Trek/whatever franchise." Canon is a reference to the issue of the Holy Catholic Church's view of what is and isn't true about the nature of the universe and God. So, it's a spiritual co-opting. However, the thing is that it inherently loses some of its power when dealing with works of fiction.

Blame Sherlockian fandom, then. :shrug: They started using "canon" in this way almost a hundred years ago, and that use has spread out from there. The ship has long since sailed on this "poor choice of words."

Richard Arnold began speaking on behalf of the Star Trek Office from late 1986, and that tends to be fandom's first use of the term "canon".
Sorry, but every Usenet example I quoted was from before 1986, and even examples I found (but didn't quote) from after that time don't reference Richard Arnold in any way. Arnold doesn't start being referenced until after Peter David had already been vocal about his interference with PAD's Star Trek comics and novels in 1989-1990, and at that point it's to complain specifically about the creative interference.

I also specifically looked for similar uses of the word "continuity" to see if that term was being used more often, and it wasn't being used at all in these types of conversations. It was always "canon," used as both a noun and an adjective--both were also used in additional examples which I didn't quote--and everyone involved knew what was meant by that. Nobody was coining the term for the first time or having to explain its meaning in this context to anyone else. As Idran put it:

And in this particular case for their usage of the term "canon", you know what they mean by the term. You understand what concept they're intending to communicate. So this label did its job. :p

Lest anyone think these online pioneers were engaging in some kind of intellectual salon amongst the academically-inclined, all of the posts I quoted were parts of arguments. :lol: They were all about the same type of thing we're talking about here--people using tie-ins to back up their viewpoints and/or asserting that certain tie-ins (novelisations, the Spaceflight Chronology, The Final Reflection, and so on) are canonical when they're not. One thread I didn't quote (because it was from 1990) wanted fans to collectively decide that Star Trek V wasn't canon (whether or not Paramount disagreed), while another declared that Diane Duane's depiction of Romulans was better than that of TNG and should thus be decreed to be the canonical version of the species.
 
...wait, then what on Earth does that have to do with if they use it as a noun or an adjective? You can do that in either form or not do that in either form, it's neither easier nor harder to do that in either part of speech.

Don't take me so literally, I'm a writer. My point is that "the canon" is a thing, a particular category that things belong to, while "canon" as fans tend to use it is a value, a designation that they take as ascribing legitimacy or worth. The difference between the canon and the apocrypha is like the difference between land and water -- they're simply two complementary categories that items fall into, broad groupings that are fairly straightforward, rather than value judgments or things that have to be officially assigned.

See, this is exactly my point about how labels get in the way. You're so fixated on the surface question of what part of speech to call something that you're completely missing the deeper point that I was just using the noun/adjective distinction to illustrate. My point is not actually about parts of speech -- that's just the symbol I was using to convey the more important idea. By fixating on the surface symbol, you miss the deeper idea it merely represents.
 
Technically, Mr. Phipps is both too specific and too general: in its original sense, canon refers specifically to the Biblical books that any given denomination accepts as authoritative. Which is to say that, for example, 1 Maccabees is considered canonical by Roman Catholics and by most of the Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox denominations, but NOT by most Protestant and Anglican denominations, nor by the Orthodox Tewahedo.

And "TheAlmanac" is correct about Sherlock Holmes fandom having used "canon" in a purely secular context for about a century, and of almost certainly having originated the secular usage.

And Mr. Bennett is quite correct in pointing out that "canon" is a noun. The adjective form is "canonical."
 
Don't take me so literally, I'm a writer. My point is that "the canon" is a thing, a particular category that things belong to, while "canon" as fans tend to use it is a value, a designation that they take as ascribing legitimacy or worth. The difference between the canon and the apocrypha is like the difference between land and water -- they're simply two complementary categories that items fall into, broad groupings that are fairly straightforward, rather than value judgments or things that have to be officially assigned.

See, this is exactly my point about how labels get in the way. You're so fixated on the surface question of what part of speech to call something that you're completely missing the deeper point that I was just using the noun/adjective distinction to illustrate. My point is not actually about parts of speech -- that's just the symbol I was using to convey the more important idea. By fixating on the surface symbol, you miss the deeper idea it merely represents.

Okay, now I see what you meant. All right, I get you now, and yeah, fair enough!
 
Plus it's interesting to see the claim that Harve Bennett considered the comics to have official standing. Although I think that may have been a misinterpretation, the perennial confusion of "official" with "canonical."

I think this might have originated in several comments made in the DC Comics lettercolumns at the time (circa the third and fourth movies) that the DC writers and editors were then in communication with Harve Bennett regarding the series, and that he'd given his blessing to count them as "official" (not necessarily "canonical") at that point.

It was also mentioned that the DC comics were being written independently of the movie screenwriters' process, and after Star Trek IV was released, it was noted in the lettercol that Bennett had notified them that Star Trek V would be set quite some time after the fourth film, which would give the comics some pre-determined space to exist (unlike what happened between TWOK and TSFS and TSFS and TVH).

Of course, this was just before Richard Arnold started intervening more strongly in those types of conversations (post-TNG debut), but it's still an interesting artifact/snapshot of the era.
 
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As one of the five guys on the planet who actually likes Star Trek V. Part of my ongoing sadness is the complete canon lock-out which has been maintained to prevent the events of the film from being referenced ever again in any subsequent novels or material. Which is a shame because awful implementation is not the same as awful ideas.

* The Federation, Romulans, and Klingons having a shared governorship of a world.
* The fact the Klingons have killed YET ANOTHER God after their own.
* What the hell WAS that thing. Was it the Devil like Shatner thought? Or a being which inspired him?

And so on.
 
I can't say as I find V to be one of ST's better moments, but I certainly don't dislike it. It's hardly Spock's Brain.
Then again, I've seen no evidence of a "complete canon lock-out" against it, either. Indeed, the being there figured prominently in Peter David Greg Cox's "Q" trilogy.
 
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