"The third great SF franchise"??

[TREK_GOD_1]

I've yet to see a good argument why Doctor Who doesn't count other than it's a niche geek thing in America. America's not the whole world. It's cornerstone of popular culture in Britain, mainstream and massive.

I almost want to say Dr Who just based off of longevity but it's not just niche in the US. It's practically unheard of on a world wide scale. There's a reason no one is rushing to produce a 200 million dollar Dr Who epic. Nobody even knows what it is.

Great point.

 

[DWF]

I've yet to see a good argument why Doctor Who doesn't count other than it's a niche geek thing in America. America's not the whole world. It's cornerstone of popular culture in Britain, mainstream and massive.

I almost want to say Dr Who just based off of longevity but it's not just niche in the US. It's practically unheard of on a world wide scale. There's a reason no one is rushing to produce a 200 million dollar Dr Who epic. Nobody even knows what it is.

There was talk of Doctor Who movie more than once the last with David Yates as the director. And you should check out the world tour Peter Capaldi and Jenna Coleman made, you can see that they were mobbed wherever they went.

 

[Greg Cox]

Wow. No love for Battlestar Galactica - either version? or Space: 1999? Let me be the first, then. I'm a sucker for 70's classic sci-fi...

I don't think we're ranking them based on our personal preference.

I think we're talking about how big and important they are in the world of Science Fiction.

And how well known they are to the general public as well.

 

[JoeZhang]

There's a reason no one is rushing to produce a 200 million dollar Dr Who epic. Nobody even knows what it is.

That's a weird argument - who knew what MiB was (a comic read by nobody)?

You are also looking at the wrong end of the telescope - Doctor Who is known in the industry because of the talent working on it in front and behind the screen/

 

[Trekkin]

Doctor Who is pretty big world wide, except seemingly in the US. I mean, I've lived in Australia, Japan and Singapore, and the reboot series has been prime time viewing in all three. I might be wrong about this, but I was also under the impression that the Classic series managed to spread a lot further abroad than Star Trek did in the same period.

If it was based purely on pop-culture influence, then I'd also nominate the entire Flash Gordon franchise and Amazing Stories magazine. No Star Wars without the former, and probably no Star Trek (as we know it) without the latter. Hell, without Amazing Stories, Scifi itself would be a very different beast.

 

[RJDiogenes]

If we include anthologies, it would have to be Twilight Zone.

If we discount anthologies, it would have to be Doctor Who.

Doctor Who is pretty big world wide, except seemingly in the US. I mean, I've lived in Australia, Japan and Singapore, and the reboot series has been prime time viewing in all three. I might be wrong about this, but I was also under the impression that the Classic series managed to spread a lot further abroad than Star Trek did in the same period.

Doctor Who was always pretty big in the US. When I was a kid back in the 70s, there was Star Trek and there was Doctor Who and then there was everything else.

If it was based purely on pop-culture influence, then I'd also nominate the entire Flash Gordon franchise and Amazing Stories magazine. No Star Wars without the former, and probably no Star Trek (as we know it) without the latter. Hell, without Amazing Stories, Scifi itself would be a very different beast.

Astounding, too, but I think all of these are kind of "invisible influences" that most people are not really aware of. If you mention Flash Gordon today, most people will think of Queen, not Alex Raymond-- or Buster Crabbe.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

I've yet to see a good argument why Doctor Who doesn't count other than it's a niche geek thing in America. America's not the whole world. It's cornerstone of popular culture in Britain, mainstream and massive.

And does no one want to comment on my nomination of Anderson/APF/Century 21 as one of the greats?

Ok, I'll comment. I grew up going to sci-fi conventions and reading most sci-fi books I could find, and I don't even recognize that name, so I sincerely doubt it belongs anywhere near this discussion.

At this point Trek and Wars have been around for decades, and have a pretty solid place in popular culture, and the MCU is nowhere near that level.

All true. The MCU is a franchise, but its not sci-fi, and in terms of cultural impact, mass productions alone do not mean its relevant. Its just a well-funded series, but I do not find it difficult to argue that in 20 years, most of the MCU will seem like a blur, in part thanks to the "maxi-series" approach to linked films, with only a small handful standing out as solid productions.

Now you're just completely changing the goalpost. Star Wars is a franchise which (prior to the new movie) had at best a 50% success rate in terms of 'solid productions' (at best, mind you, since in my experience, many, many people still dislike at least 1 of the three original films, as well). And the Star Trek landscape is absolutely littered with duds that most fans would prefer to forget. I'm not even sure there is any single movie or series which the general public/non-Star Trek fans would even remember as a truly solid production in the same way that people remember Empire.

It was never just the fact that they made (some) 'solid productions' which brought either of these series into the public eye. In my experience, it's almost always been the characters (or the technology/settings) which have conquered the public consciousness far more than the stories ever could. That's a standard Marvel could very easily meet. Even 20 years from now, I expect.

 

[Reverend]

If it was based purely on pop-culture influence, then I'd also nominate the entire Flash Gordon franchise and Amazing Stories magazine. No Star Wars without the former, and probably no Star Trek (as we know it) without the latter. Hell, without Amazing Stories, Scifi itself would be a very different beast.

I don't disagree in terms of influence, but I'd say those properties suffer a bit from the 'John Carter' effect. By which I mean that over the years the material has been mined by so many, that most people are more familiar with the derivative works while the original becomes increasingly obscure.
Even to the point where people of a certain age might look at a (theoretical) modern remake of 'Flash Gordon' and believe it to be a bit of a 'Star Wars' rip-off.

To give another example, a person born in the 80's or 90's might look at this scene from 'Chasing Amy' and assume it's a reference to this scene in 'Lethal Weapon 3', while someone born in the 60's or 70's know they're both actually referencing this scene from 'Jaws'.

 

[Andrew_Kearley]

And does no one want to comment on my nomination of Anderson/APF/Century 21 as one of the greats?

Ok, I'll comment. I grew up going to sci-fi conventions and reading most sci-fi books I could find, and I don't even recognize that name, so I sincerely doubt it belongs anywhere near this discussion.

Maybe it's a UK thing then, but I can only speak from my own experience. But certainly in this country, the Gerry Anderson series were the biggest thing to anyone growing up in the sixties and seventies. A dozen tv series, three cinema movies, and a veritable mass of merchandising. They were well into that game before George Lucas realized its potential. Century 21 had their own merchandising company. Books, a co-ordinated series of comics, original audio episodes released on records, toys and games galore. It's certainly up there with Doctor Who, Star Trek and Star Wars for brand recognition, nostalgia and penetration into popular culture. Everyone here knows Thunderbirds, if nothing else.

 

[Trekkin]

There's a Thunderbirds series airing now, or at least there was a few weeks back. It's animated, like the Captain Scarlet series from a little while ago.

 

[Leroy]

If this were the 90's I'd say Babylon 5 it was pretty popular, not enough to be a household name but I remember a lot of excitement over the series among sf/f circles at the time.

If we expand our search to include countries outside the US there are certainly more contenders than the big two.

Gundam, sometimes called Japan's Star Trek, is as solid an alternative to Doctor Who in the 'third sci-fi franchise' column both for popularity and cultural longevity (they built one of those things life size for whatever reason.)

The franchise is so popular in Japan it's practically a part of their culture at this point. There are even Gundam themed ramen noodle cups! The series enjoyed some brief popularity in the US during the early 2000's as part of the Toonami lineup on Cartoon Network, I remember the toyline had a presence that rivaled Star Wars at most retailers for a few years. In the US it's gone back to niche status only being well known among anime circles.

Doctor Who is the same way being super popular in it's respective country but more niche/cult in the US, although the popularity has gone way up during the Matt Smith years.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

And does no one want to comment on my nomination of Anderson/APF/Century 21 as one of the greats?

Ok, I'll comment. I grew up going to sci-fi conventions and reading most sci-fi books I could find, and I don't even recognize that name, so I sincerely doubt it belongs anywhere near this discussion.

Maybe it's a UK thing then, but I can only speak from my own experience. But certainly in this country, the Gerry Anderson series were the biggest thing to anyone growing up in the sixties and seventies. A dozen tv series, three cinema movies, and a veritable mass of merchandising. They were well into that game before George Lucas realized its potential. Century 21 had their own merchandising company. Books, a co-ordinated series of comics, original audio episodes released on records, toys and games galore. It's certainly up there with Doctor Who, Star Trek and Star Wars for brand recognition, nostalgia and penetration into popular culture. Everyone here knows Thunderbirds, if nothing else.

There's a Thunderbirds series airing now, or at least there was a few weeks back. It's animated, like the Captain Scarlet series from a little while ago.

Ah, Thunderbirds is a name I have heard. So I suppose it's at least arguable enough to be mentioned here, especially since it does seem to be having a small (nostalgia driven?) revival at the moment. I've actually even seen a Thunderbirds board game that came out recently. I'm not sure you can compare one massive wave of popularity decades ago plus a small resurgence now to the far more enduring success of ST and SW, though. But that is the crux of the thread, really, since few things really come very close to those two at all.

 

[137th Gebirg]

If we're talking Japanese franchises now, then Space Battleship Yamato must be included. It's influenced a whole generation of anime and, arguably, western cinema. The breakout of Yamato in Season 2 (Comet Empire) views almost identically to the stealing of the Enterprise in TSFS, both against higher orders, right down to the newly built and heavily automated Andromeda/Excelsior being tasked to stop Yamato/Enterprise and failing (albeit by different reasons). Even George Lucas was said to have looked heavily at Japanese Anime for coming up with ideas for Star Wars. Some things are just too similar to be coincidence:

Yamato is definitely a major influence on what is seen today, and the latest incarnation (Yamato 2199) is a serious example of how to do a successful reboot without pissing off a big chunk of the classic fanbase.

 

[Magellan]

That's a weird argument - who knew what MiB was (a comic read by nobody)?

You are also looking at the wrong end of the telescope - Doctor Who is known in the industry because of the talent working on it in front and behind the screen/

I should clarify, I meant audiences don't know what it is. Movie makers, I'm sure do. Although movie executives can be surprisingly ignorant....
We're in fandom. We have to really take a step back to realize how many people don't know the things we know. Disney felt they had to do a big marketing push in China because audiences weren't familiar enough with Star Wars. I'm doubting that audience knows Dr Who. Being relatively unknown doesn't preclude a big movie, but being well known definitely makes it a more tempting target for blockbusterization.
I know Dr Who does have fans all around the world, but that's way differentfrom being widely, and instantly recognizable by the general population. Even being on the air, in most countries it is only going to get a tiny fraction of the total population watching. For example the Dr Who season 9 premiere got 2 million American viewers, that's about .0063% of the total population. It isn't even just the direct viewers. Star Wars and Star Trek get constantly referenced in other films and TV shows(to the point of being shorthand for geek character) drastically furthering their exposure. Star Trek got it's own big budget Hollywood parody. Dr Who references in US film(widely exported) and TV are practically zilch. A ton of people have never watched Star Trek but know of it from other media.

.

 

[Galileo7]

Wow. No love for Battlestar Galactica - either version? or Space: 1999? Let me be the first, then. I'm a sucker for 70's classic sci-fi...

Space:1999 (1975-77) will always be one of my favorite science-fiction television series. It has been ever since I saw it debut as a very young boy in September 1975 and enjoyed it's two season run thoroughly. When it ended in 1977, the Star Wars release was a welcome arrival. Prior to '75, my only absolute favorites were Star Trek:TOS, Star Trek:TAS and Lost In Space (1965-68).

As far as the third franchise with both Star Trek and Star Wars I think the top choices are Bond 007 [might not be considered science-fiction], Harry Potter, Marvel, Batman or Doctor Who.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

Now you're just completely changing the goalpost. Star Wars is a franchise which (prior to the new movie) had at best a 50% success rate in terms of 'solid productions' (at best, mind you, since in my experience, many, many people still dislike at least 1 of the three original films, as well).

No, that's not changing the goalpost. This "50%" (wherever you're getting that from) does not compare to MCU, which churns out more than 10 films--most a blur that cannot stand on their own because they are thin action strung together at the expense of a solid story.

And the Star Trek landscape is absolutely littered with duds that most fans would prefer to forget. I'm not even sure there is any single movie or series which the general public/non-Star Trek fans would even remember as a truly solid production in the same way that people remember Empire.

I'll give you two examples: The Wrath of Khan leaped over ST fans to appeal to general audiences, with the villain, Spock's death, etc. becoming cultural references--even lines of dialogue (not just "Khaaan!") were recognized references. The Voyage Home was another solid production that enjoyed mass appeal beyond its base.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

Now you're just completely changing the goalpost. Star Wars is a franchise which (prior to the new movie) had at best a 50% success rate in terms of 'solid productions' (at best, mind you, since in my experience, many, many people still dislike at least 1 of the three original films, as well).

No, that's not changing the goalpost. This "50%" (wherever you're getting that from) does not compare to MCU, which churns out more than 10 films--most a blur that cannot stand on their own because they are thin action strung together at the expense of a solid story.

And the Star Trek landscape is absolutely littered with duds that most fans would prefer to forget. I'm not even sure there is any single movie or series which the general public/non-Star Trek fans would even remember as a truly solid production in the same way that people remember Empire.

I'll give you two examples: The Wrath of Khan leaped over ST fans to appeal to general audiences, with the villain, Spock's death, etc. becoming cultural references--even lines of dialogue (not just "Khaaan!") were recognized references. The Voyage Home was another solid production that enjoyed mass appeal beyond its base.

And I can give you 4 Marvel movies which had far better reception. (Iron Man, Avengers, Winter Soldier, Guardians) Movies to which the general audience can actually remember the name, rather than just saying 'the one with the whales'. That's among the people who even remember the one with the whales, anymore, which I doubt is very many at this point. In terms of general audience recognition, Marvel kicks Star Trek's ass at this point.

Now, it's fair to say Marvel is young and might not last (I personally doubt it will fade away anytime soon, but no one can say with any certainty), but Star Trek itself has not truly lasted among the general audience, either. All that most people remember are the iconic snippets like Kirk and Spock, the Enterprise, Live Long and Prosper. And that's a level of lasting recognition that Marvel could easily match: Iron Man, Captain America, the Avengers, even the Guardians etc, are already becoming icons.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

And I can give you 4 Marvel movies which had far better reception. (Iron Man, Avengers, Winter Soldier, Guardians) Movies to which the general audience can actually remember the name, rather than just saying 'the one with the whales'. That's among the people who even remember the one with the whales, anymore, which I doubt is very many at this point. In terms of general audience recognition, Marvel kicks Star Trek's ass at this point.

I reject that. Guardians does not have a single character, dialogue or situation that was iconic--memorable to the average person on the street. At best, one might ask, "isn't the film with a talking raccoon?"--and that's not the result of a firm hold on the culture. On the other hand, so much about Trek has been a natural part of general culture, that Starship Enterprise, Kirk, Spock, "Beam Me Up," (or any number of Kirk-isms), to the point where it actively lives outside of the source. What Marvel movie has that effect? "Hulking Out" once had a minor cultural use during the run of the 1977-82 Incredible Hulk TV series, but its barely recognized today.

Now, it's fair to say Marvel is young and might not last (I personally doubt it will fade away anytime soon, but no one can say with any certainty), but Star Trek itself has not truly lasted among the general audience, either. All that most people remember are the iconic snippets like Kirk and Spock, the Enterprise, Live Long and Prosper. And that's a level of lasting recognition that Marvel could easily match: Iron Man, Captain America, the Avengers, even the Guardians etc, are already becoming icons.

Icons? Where? I suspect you are subconsciously gluing Marvel film characters to their comic counterparts--with the added belief that the comics are iconic. If that's the case, I counter with an uncomfortable truth: there's a large number of the average population who have not or care to read comics, and they have not become part of modern myth like Superman & Batman.

So, in accepting that fact, the characters you refer to live only in their films, the source live in comics, but where is the true cultural hold for the movie versions? Being a hit in theaters does not guarantee icon status at all, otherwise dialogue and characters from Avatar, Harry Potter or the LOTR films would have become ingrained in the common cultural landscape, with its characters, dialogue and situations being as familiar as non-fiction history. It did not happen with the aforementioned films (even as LOTR books were read for several generations before the Jackson movies), and i'm not seeing it with the MCU characters.

Too much output with next to no great entries (probably 1 -3 at best) hurts this expanding blur of a franchise.

 

[Venardhi]

I think you're severely underestimating the presence of these franchises in pop-culture media and in the average family home over the last decade. It is not difficult to compare to Star Wars in the 80s and 90s.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

And I can give you 4 Marvel movies which had far better reception. (Iron Man, Avengers, Winter Soldier, Guardians) Movies to which the general audience can actually remember the name, rather than just saying 'the one with the whales'. That's among the people who even remember the one with the whales, anymore, which I doubt is very many at this point. In terms of general audience recognition, Marvel kicks Star Trek's ass at this point.

I reject that. Guardians does not have a single character, dialogue or situation that was iconic--memorable to the average person on the street. At best, one might ask, "isn't the film with a talking raccoon?"--and that's not the result of a firm hold on the culture. On the other hand, so much about Trek has been a natural part of general culture, that Starship Enterprise, Kirk, Spock, "Beam Me Up," (or any number of Kirk-isms), to the point where it actively lives outside of the source. What Marvel movie has that effect? "Hulking Out" once had a minor cultural use during the run of the 1977-82 Incredible Hulk TV series, but its barely recognized today.

Now, it's fair to say Marvel is young and might not last (I personally doubt it will fade away anytime soon, but no one can say with any certainty), but Star Trek itself has not truly lasted among the general audience, either. All that most people remember are the iconic snippets like Kirk and Spock, the Enterprise, Live Long and Prosper. And that's a level of lasting recognition that Marvel could easily match: Iron Man, Captain America, the Avengers, even the Guardians etc, are already becoming icons.

Icons? Where? I suspect you are subconsciously gluing Marvel film characters to their comic counterparts--with the added belief that the comics are iconic. If that's the case, I counter with an uncomfortable truth: there's a large number of the average population who have not or care to read comics, and they have not become part of modern myth like Superman & Batman.

So, in accepting that fact, the characters you refer to live only in their films, the source live in comics, but where is the true cultural hold for the movie versions? Being a hit in theaters does not guarantee icon status at all, otherwise dialogue and characters from Avatar, Harry Potter or the LOTR films would have become ingrained in the common cultural landscape, with its characters, dialogue and situations being as familiar as non-fiction history. It did not happen with the aforementioned films (even as LOTR books were read for several generations before the Jackson movies), and i'm not seeing it with the MCU characters.

Too much output with next to no great entries (probably 1 -3 at best) hurts this expanding blur of a franchise.

I think you're severely underestimating the presence of these franchises in pop-culture media and in the average family home over the last decade. It is not difficult to compare to Star Wars in the 80s and 90s.

What he said.

To be a little more specific, in terms of how often I've seen references outside of fan-centered areas over the past five years, I've seen far more Captain America and Iron Man references than even Star Wars (until the new movie came out, now Star Wars is king again). Groot was also an absolutely huge success with the general audience, probably more or less comparable to r2d2 or Chewbacca (although 1 movie is definitely a thin foundation to build an icon on, so if those sequels disappoint he might disappear still). The movies also definitely do have iconic moments ("I'm always angry."/ "Puny god." / "We are groot.")

Meanwhile, that list you rattled off was almost the entire list of things the average person would actually still remember about ST, despite it having 50 years of history. (Well, you missed the transporter and I think most people also still remember Captain Picard, although that's more to do with Patrick Stewart being so successful in other brands as well).

Just, incidentally, I think you're also massively underestimating Harry Potter, although I agree that LotR didn't get that much overall traction outside of Sean Bean memes.