Star Wars: The Force Awakens Discussion (HERE THERE BE SPOILERS)

[davejames]

ROTS was a mess.

Kor

Yeah, for all it's faults, at least TFA didn't bungle something as huge as Anakin's fall to the dark side, with a character you never really liked or cared about to begin with, who suddenly just decides at the end he's going to be evil and kill a bunch of innocent kids for no explained reason.

 

[TRON JA307020]

ROTS was a mess.

Kor

Yeah, for all it's faults, at least TFA didn't bungle something as huge as Anakin's fall to the dark side, with a character you never really liked or cared about to begin with, who suddenly decides he's going to be evil and kill a bunch of innocent kids for no explained reason.

Wait you mean Darth Vader who supposedly personified evil created a evil heinous act as he fell to the dark side? Why is that unexplained? The dark side took him over. There was no good left in Anakin at that point. Isn't that the point to see how evil Vader was early on and to see him commit acts of evil?

 

[Mr Light]

I would love to see a Young Han Solo movie.

But only if he has to blow up a massive super weapon.

 

[Turtletrekker]

I would love to see a Young Han Solo movie.

But only if he has to blow up a massive super weapon.

By exploiting an obvious weakness that was somehow overlooked.

 

[davejames]

Wait you mean Darth Vader who supposedly personified evil created a evil heinous act as he fell to the dark side? Why is that unexplained? The dark side took him over. There was no good left in Anakin at that point. Isn't that the point to see how evil Vader was early on and to see him commit acts of evil?

Well last I checked, the dark side isn't some evil spirit like in the Exorcist that suddenly possesses you so you can no longer control your actions. Even as twisted and corrupt as Anakin had become, it's still a pretty huge leap from him being upset with the Jedi for not making him a Jedi Master and concerned over Padme's life to... suddenly deciding to murder everyone in sight on Palpatine's orders.

Especially given that only a few minutes earlier he was perceptive enough to see through Palpatine's deception and turned him into the Jedi. But then suddenly he decides "never mind, Palpatine was totally right and all the Jedi need to be killed now?" Say huh?

Psychologically speaking, nothing about his final fall to the dark side in that movie makes any sense. At least to me anyway.

 

[DWF]

Wait you mean Darth Vader who supposedly personified evil created a evil heinous act as he fell to the dark side? Why is that unexplained? The dark side took him over. There was no good left in Anakin at that point. Isn't that the point to see how evil Vader was early on and to see him commit acts of evil?

Well last I checked, the dark side isn't some evil spirit like in the Exorcist that suddenly possesses you so you can no longer control your actions. Even as twisted and corrupt as Anakin had become, it's still a pretty huge leap from him being upset with the Jedi for not making him a Jedi Master and concerned over Padme's life to... suddenly deciding to murder everyone in sight on Palpatine's orders.

Especially given that only a few minutes earlier he was perceptive enough to see through Palpatine's deception and turned him into the Jedi. But then suddenly he decides "never mind, Palpatine was totally right and all the Jedi need to be killed now?" Say huh?

Psychologically speaking, nothing about his final fall to the dark side in that movie makes any sense. At least to me anyway.

Palpatine had told Anakin that though knowledge of the dark side he'd be able to save Padme's life. Now after the loss of his mother Anakin would've done anything to save Padme's life. Which is something of a change from the original version of Anakin's fall which was a quest for power.

 

[Joel_Kirk]

OMG OMG OMG!!!

The movie was awesome!!!

Yes, my tears flowed freely when it came to 'that scene'.....and still flowed after that even though I had a smile as Poe and his Black Squadron took down TIE Fighters. My tears continued to flow when a familiar face showed up at the end.....as well as during the credits.

I like that we see so many different faces on both The Resistance as well as The New Order.

For example: We have a black X-Wing pilot as well as an Asian female X-Wing pilot. And Ken Leung, as a Resistance tactician, has a bit of dialogue. And I saw different 'dark-skinned'/mixed-race folk on The New Order side as well.

I like.

I find it interesting that Rey has a 'real' English accent, which subverts the Empire, er, The New Order only having villainous English accents....lol

Yeah, I'm going to be seeing it a few more times.

 

[Dude]

Wait you mean Darth Vader who supposedly personified evil created a evil heinous act as he fell to the dark side? Why is that unexplained? The dark side took him over. There was no good left in Anakin at that point. Isn't that the point to see how evil Vader was early on and to see him commit acts of evil?

Well last I checked, the dark side isn't some evil spirit like in the Exorcist that suddenly possesses you so you can no longer control your actions. Even as twisted and corrupt as Anakin had become, it's still a pretty huge leap from him being upset with the Jedi for not making him a Jedi Master and concerned over Padme's life to... suddenly deciding to murder everyone in sight on Palpatine's orders.

Especially given that only a few minutes earlier he was perceptive enough to see through Palpatine's deception and turned him into the Jedi. But then suddenly he decides "never mind, Palpatine was totally right and all the Jedi need to be killed now?" Say huh?

Psychologically speaking, nothing about his final fall to the dark side in that movie makes any sense. At least to me anyway.

I think a lot of people overlook what occurred leading up to Anakin's turn. Palpatine had been at work on Anakin for a while and, while it was downplayed at the end, the desire for power was definitely an angle that was still involved (e.g. his anger that he was denied the rank of master). Anakin clearly had lost trust in the rest of the Jedi.

Specifically, both of Mace Windu's speeches towards the end played right into Palpatine's hands. His refusal to allow Anakin to come with the Jedi to confront Palpatine and the outright statement that he (and, by extension, the rest of the Jedi) didn't trust Anakin was one. The other is when Windu had appeared to win the battle and states that he is going to execute Palpatine and go outside the law. Yoda even talks about this earlier in the film when he discusses how many Jedi are too sure of themselves.

To me, the overt reason for the turn was trying to save Padme, but the actual underlying reason was really that Anakin felt undervalued by the Order and wanted more then he was being given. Anakin had clearly lost respect for the Jedi and turned on them. Palpatine successfully maneuvered the situation to give Anakin an alternative to the Jedi. It wasn't actually about Padme, that was just the last push to get him over the line.

You can see this develop over the course of AOTC and ROTS. Anakin directly refers to the Jedi as evil at one point. I think it is very clear.

 

[Set Harth]

Especially given that only a few minutes earlier he was perceptive enough to see through Palpatine's deception and turned him into the Jedi.

Perceptive? Palpatine deliberately outed himself to Anakin. He said outright that his master trained him in the dark side.

 

[Ithekro]

Palpatine was getting tired of dropping hints that no one caught, even though some were quite obvious.

Also the money was running out on both sides so he'd need to wrap up the war soon if he wanted to build that Death Star, rule through fear, weapon that he always wanted.

 

[dahj]

Then again, fans were probably saying the same thing back in the nineties when they learned there was gonna be a new Obi-Wan.

Not so much really as I recall.

There's an added complication this time because a young Obi-Wan was a new thing, while we've already seen a young Han Solo before.

 

[JD]

I just remembered something I've been meaning to ask about the Rey/Ben fight at the end. After he gets shot, he keeps hitting his chest, and it sounded like he was hitting something harder than a normal body. Was it just his thick cloak and clothes, could have been wearing armor or been a cyborg with metal on his chest?

 

[davejames]

I think a lot of people overlook what occurred leading up to Anakin's turn. Palpatine had been at work on Anakin for a while and, while it was downplayed at the end, the desire for power was definitely an angle that was still involved (e.g. his anger that he was denied the rank of master). Anakin clearly had lost trust in the rest of the Jedi.

Specifically, both of Mace Windu's speeches towards the end played right into Palpatine's hands. His refusal to allow Anakin to come with the Jedi to confront Palpatine and the outright statement that he (and, by extension, the rest of the Jedi) didn't trust Anakin was one. The other is when Windu had appeared to win the battle and states that he is going to execute Palpatine and go outside the law. Yoda even talks about this earlier in the film when he discusses how many Jedi are too sure of themselves.

To me, the overt reason for the turn was trying to save Padme, but the actual underlying reason was really that Anakin felt undervalued by the Order and wanted more then he was being given. Anakin had clearly lost respect for the Jedi and turned on them. Palpatine successfully maneuvered the situation to give Anakin an alternative to the Jedi. It wasn't actually about Padme, that was just the last push to get him over the line.

You can see this develop over the course of AOTC and ROTS. Anakin directly refers to the Jedi as evil at one point. I think it is very clear.

Yeah I get that's what Lucas was going for, but even as much as Palpatine had manipulated and warped his mind over the years, I never bought Anakin being so corrupt or so angry at the end that he would actually believe wiping out all the Jedi and killing innocent kids was now somehow justified or the "correct" thing to do.

Especially given that up until that point, he had been portrayed more as just some immature and petulant teenager with anger issues than as some crazed psychotic killer with no sense of right and wrong. We needed more of a believable transition to that, but instead it just sort of... happens.

 

[Set Harth]

Yeah I get that's what Lucas was going for, but even as much as Palpatine had manipulated and warped his mind over the years, I never bought Anakin being so corrupt or so angry at the end that he would actually believe wiping out all the Jedi and killing innocent kids was now somehow justified or the "correct" thing to do.

He probably didn't literally believe that deep down. But he was rationalizing the decisions he had made by that point. It was more of a "point of no return" type of thing. He knew there was no going back to his old life after what happened to Mace. He had thrown in with Palpatine and the soon-to-be Empire. There would be no room for the Jedi in the New Order, and there would be no going back.

 

[JD]

I forgot to post this before. Disney has released TFA's script to the Writers' Guild and it has revealed some new info.
The planet Luke was on is called Ahch-to, and he was aware of who Rey was and what she wanted when he saw her.
The part of the vision where Rey saw Luke with R2 was during Kylo Ren's attack on his Jedi Academy.
Snoke told Kylo that Vader's love for Luke caused his downfall.
Kylo was "horiffied" and "somehow weakened" when he killed his father.
Rey came close to the Dark Side during her fight with Kylo, and according to the novelization and it's audio book even heard Snoke's voice.

 

[ancient]

Too bad they were too busy rushing from scene to scene to actually communicate any of that.

 

[Set Harth]

I forgot to post this before. Disney has released TFA's script to the Writers' Guild and it has revealed some new info

^ "The vision Rey has when first touching Luke's lightsaber is also detailed, confirming that Cloud City is shown in the opening flashes."

Uh, we didn't need a script to confirm that. The corridor we see in the film was quite obviously from the Vader & Luke battle, for anyone at all familiar with TESB.

I also want to say the Unkar Plutt bit was evident in the film too.

 

[JD]

I thought for a second that it might have looked like him, but I wasn't sure enough to say anything.

 

[Dude]

Yeah I get that's what Lucas was going for, but even as much as Palpatine had manipulated and warped his mind over the years, I never bought Anakin being so corrupt or so angry at the end that he would actually believe wiping out all the Jedi and killing innocent kids was now somehow justified or the "correct" thing to do.

He probably didn't literally believe that deep down. But he was rationalizing the decisions he had made by that point. It was more of a "point of no return" type of thing. He knew there was no going back to his old life after what happened to Mace. He had thrown in with Palpatine and the soon-to-be Empire. There would be no room for the Jedi in the New Order, and there would be no going back.

Definitely some of this, he turned and maybe went further than he really intended initially when he gave into his pent-up emotions. His attack on the Separatists on Mustafar is completely in line with the character. He's been fighting a war with them for years, they've killed or tried to kill almost everyone he cared for, including his wife on multiple occasions. Anakin stopped restraining his emotions and this was the result.

The attack on the Jedi Temple, while a major and dramatically sudden turn, is the most realistic scene in all seven movies to me. Because of my real-life employment, I have some experience with workplace violence. Anakin is a pissed-off worker who returns to his employer and starts killing people. It's writ large, but Lucas nailed it. Once they snap, they usually attack indiscriminately and frequently kill (or at least try to kill) a lot of innocents who just also work there. They literally let go of reality during this moment. Add in the mob mentality with the clone troopers ramping up the emotions and I clearly see this playing out.

Once he's done that, he's gone down this path. How do you logically turn back? He would have to justify it and only way to do so would be to stay on this path. Even then, it still ultimately takes the death of Padme and his belief that he killed her to solidify the turn to the dark side in him.

I thought it was well done, just very nuanced.

 

[Skywalker]

I just remembered something I've been meaning to ask about the Rey/Ben fight at the end. After he gets shot, he keeps hitting his chest, and it sounded like he was hitting something harder than a normal body. Was it just his thick cloak and clothes, could have been wearing armor or been a cyborg with metal on his chest?

I'm pretty sure it was just a combination of his leather gloves pounding against his thick robes. He was punching at the wound in his side he received from Chewie's bowcaster, not sure if he was doing it to try and numb it or just to get himself angrier and psyched up for the fight.