On season 4 of Buffy...should I be watching Angel?

[theenglish]

Strangely though, for people in the town of Sunnydale there's actually a lower mortality rate for people she is friends with. It's like how in the high school prom they said 'The lowest mortality rate in school history' even though dozens of students died. I don't know if that trend holds true for the last four episodes, but up to this point, in Sunnydale you're statistically safer when you're near Buffy.

I like that Angel got to give a Captain Kirk speech. "I like my pain!"

One of the things that I loved about Buffy and Angel is that even at their most intense moments the shows never took themselves that seriously and acknowledged that they weren't set in the "real" world. Comments like the prom joke being one of the best examples. Agents of SHIELD takes a similar tone, which is why I am a big fan of the show.

Dollhouse's approach bothered me a little bit because I couldn't get past the idea that the main character, albeit willingly, was subjected to brainwashing and put in life-threatening and sexually compromising positions. That took any light-heartedness a little over the top for me.

Firefly was the closest in style to Buffy and it was a shame it didn't stick with the public.

 

[Christopher]

Dollhouse's approach bothered me a little bit because I couldn't get past the idea that the main character, albeit willingly, was subjected to brainwashing and put in life-threatening and sexually compromising positions. That took any light-heartedness a little over the top for me.

Except that ultimately the whole series was about confronting the immorality of what was done to her and the others and exploring its consequences to the victims and to society. And as in any Whedon show, the lightheartedness was leavening on a story that went to some extremely dark places. I think it's Whedon's most mature, thoughtful, and sincere series. (Mature in the sense of his growth as a storyteller and worldbuilder, not in the "mature audiences" sense.)

 

[theenglish]

Dollhouse's approach bothered me a little bit because I couldn't get past the idea that the main character, albeit willingly, was subjected to brainwashing and put in life-threatening and sexually compromising positions. That took any light-heartedness a little over the top for me.

Except that ultimately the whole series was about confronting the immorality of what was done to her and the others and exploring its consequences to the victims and to society. And as in any Whedon show, the lightheartedness was leavening on a story that went to some extremely dark places. I think it's Whedon's most mature, thoughtful, and sincere series. (Mature in the sense of his growth as a storyteller and worldbuilder, not in the "mature audiences" sense.)

I get that. I, personally, just couldn't watch past the first few episodes--I followed the threads here and it seemed like an interesting series but there are some things i just can't watch for whatever reason. That is not a judgment on the quality of the series just a personal thing for me.

Funny enough, there are many dark and disturbing, and violent movies, I do watch--in this context, Blue Velvet comes to mind or Jessica Jones--but for some reason Dollhouse really gave me the creeps.

Maybe someday I'll get back to it.

EDIT: Another non-SF example, I watched both series of Broadchurch but that first series gave me nightmares for weeks.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

I like that theory that the First protected Sunnydale from Jasmine. Because, being a follower of Jasmine means that you reject hate and violence or at least violence not commanded by Jasmine. So, if Jasmine affected Sunnydale it would affect Caleb.

Darla could have easily been the First there as well, as to this point in the series at least her apperance has not been explained. There's really no other established thing that would have tried to talk Connor out of killing an innocent person besides TPTB.

 

[RoJoHen]

I like that theory that the First protected Sunnydale from Jasmine. Because, being a follower of Jasmine means that you reject hate and violence or at least violence not commanded by Jasmine. So, if Jasmine affected Sunnydale it would affect Caleb.

Darla could have easily been the First there as well, as to this point in the series at least her apperance has not been explained. There's really no other established thing that would have tried to talk Connor out of killing an innocent person besides TPTB.

I have absolutely no idea what the writers' original intentions were, but there's really nothing in either series that contradicts my theory. I shared some of your concerns, so I decided to put the pieces together myself.

 

[theenglish]

I like that theory that the First protected Sunnydale from Jasmine. Because, being a follower of Jasmine means that you reject hate and violence or at least violence not commanded by Jasmine. So, if Jasmine affected Sunnydale it would affect Caleb.

Darla could have easily been the First there as well, as to this point in the series at least her apperance has not been explained. There's really no other established thing that would have tried to talk Connor out of killing an innocent person besides TPTB.

I have absolutely no idea what the writers' original intentions were, but there's really nothing in either series that contradicts my theory. I shared some of your concerns, so I decided to put the pieces together myself.

I think that makes sense. I always thought it odd that Buffy mentioned the blackout earlier in the season but not Jasmine. The only other possibility is that Jasmine happened somewhere between Buffy episodes but the way the season was structured I don't think that would work.

 

[Ethros]

The blackout in Sunnydale meant no one ever saw or heard any of Jasmine's broadcasts, and thus weren't affected. I always thought that was fairly clear. That was the intent.

 

[Christopher]

^Oh, good catch.

 

[Ethros]

Been a long time but I do recall the writers saying so

 

[JirinPanthosa]

Watched the Buffy finale. I like the way it ended with Spike getting to sacrifice himself to save the world. Also cool how all of Sunnydale got blown up, though sad Anya was the only other MC casualty. Or, didn't just one of the slayers get killed?

Also got me thinking about Spike appearing in the icon of Angel. Either that's wrong, or maybe the prophecy of the ensouled vampire becoming human as a reward for saving the world was actually Spike? If that's the case kinda makes me wonder what happens to Angel now.

Edit: Especially considering Spike is now in the credits of Angel.

 

[Sparkle Fabulosa]

So do you think Buffy meant the "I love you" to Spike?

Chosen is one of the few finales that I actually liked. I do think that Xander was too nonchalant about Anya dying though.

Last tidbit: the original finale was supposed to be that Buffy was given one wish and she would spend the whole episode deciding. The final scene would have been her revealing the wish to be Tara, alive but Amber Benson was unavailable for filming.

Now the question every Buffy fan must answer: Angel or Spike?

What did you think of the series overall?

 

[Christopher]

Also cool how all of Sunnydale got blown up...

Although it was somehow suddenly located in the middle of the desert after having been a coastal city with its own seaport for most of the show's run.

 

[RoJoHen]

The only thing I didn't like about the Buffy finale (and I had the same problem with the Season 5 finale, which was supposed to be the end of the show originally), is that I think the last scene ends too abruptly. I think series finales, especially for shows that have been around a long time, need a little bit more of a wind down period at the end, even if it's just an extra minute or two.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

Bringing back Tara would be a tad fanservicy, IMO. And would beg the question why is Tara more deserving than other fallen comrades. Jenny, Anya, Joyce.

I'd have to think through the Angel/Spike question. Angel and Buffy can make each other happier but deep down Angel doesn't think he deserves happiness, and not just because of the curse. Spike is willing to be happy but he's basically an infant and his relationship with Buffy is just a little Oedipal. He's still pleasing his mother by pleasing Buffy. So I might go with Human Angel?

I'm glad they ended the show right when Buffy's future became wide open, because it leaves a lot of possibilities open. I guess it would have been nice to know a little something more about the other characters' futures. Whether Faith intends to go back to prison or just stay helping slayers under the radar. Whether Willow and Kennedy stay together.

I'd rank the seasons: 3, 2, 5, 7, 4, 6, 1

 

[RoJoHen]

Angel belongs with Cordelia, dammit!

 

[Sparkle Fabulosa]

I don't necessarily mean which of them do you prefer with Buffy but rather as a character?

I never thought about Buffy potentially picking someone else instead of Tara. Good call.

Interesting theory about Spike and his relationship with Buffy.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

Maybe. All we know is they love each other, we don't know if had Cordelia not been ascended away into whiteland they would have worked as a couple. Angel's idealized vision of Cordelia brought him to contentment, not Cordelia herself. But I have a hunch Angel would have found a way to sabotage it if Cordelia ever really got him close to contentment. You think Angel left Buffy because Joyce made such a pragmatic plea? No, Joyce gave Angel an excuse to sabotage his happiness.

The only world where Buffy or Angel were truly in a happy relationship was the undone timeline where he was human.

I'm right now stopped halfway into episode 2 of the final Angel season. Spike isn't insubstantial the whole season is he? That would end up being annoying. You can see how worried Angel is that Spike is going to steal his humanity destiny.

As a character, I think Spike added more to the Buffy series than Angel. Angel is more fun when he's evil.

 

[JD]

So are you going to continue into the Buffy comics or just stop there?
Here's the description of the first collection:
Since the destruction of the Hellmouth, the Slayers-newly legion-have gotten organized and are kicking some serious undead butt. But not everything's fun and firearms, as an old enemy reappears and Dawn experiences some serious growing pains. Meanwhile, one of the ""Buffy"" decoy Slayers is going through major pain of her own.

Buffy creator Joss Whedon brings Buffy back to Dark Horse in this direct follow-up to Season 7 of the smash-hit TV series. The best-selling and critically acclaimed issues #1-#5 are collected here for the first time, as are their covers by Jo Chen and Georges Jeanty.

• Collects the first five issues of Season 8. Only available in comics!

• "The dialogue is Whedonesque and I can hear how the actors would read [their] lines. It's fun and witty and we're treated to more fantastical stories than the WB/UPN could ever pony up the money to do." -Comic Book Resources

 

[gblews]

So are you going to continue into the Buffy comics or just stop there?
Here's the description of the first collection:
Since the destruction of the Hellmouth, the Slayers-newly legion-have gotten organized and are kicking some serious undead butt. But not everything's fun and firearms, as an old enemy reappears and Dawn experiences some serious growing pains. Meanwhile, one of the ""Buffy"" decoy Slayers is going through major pain of her own.

Buffy creator Joss Whedon brings Buffy back to Dark Horse in this direct follow-up to Season 7 of the smash-hit TV series. The best-selling and critically acclaimed issues #1-#5 are collected here for the first time, as are their covers by Jo Chen and Georges Jeanty.

• Collects the first five issues of Season 8. Only available in comics!

• "The dialogue is Whedonesque and I can hear how the actors would read [their] lines. It's fun and witty and we're treated to more fantastical stories than the WB/UPN could ever pony up the money to do." -Comic Book Resources

Definitely worth checking out. I read seasons 8 and 9 and loved both. Way out there. Lots of great surprises.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

I will probably continue on in the series through the comics eventually but not right away. I've got a long plane flight in a month or two, maybe that's when I will start. How many 'seasons' are there in the comics?

I guess the whole ghost thing is their reason for why Spike can't just run off back to Buffy but I really don't think it's going to work for the full season. Hopefully he gets re-bodied somehow before he becomes Gazoo.

And hey, Phlox is in this!

Overall I thought Buffy was a very good series. Great characterization, though unlike a lot of series I felt a lot of their standalone episodes worked better than their serial ones, and I think the series lost something when it lost the sense of fun it had at the beginning. The episodes where the season's core story came to a head were often good but the episodes that set them up were often lackluster. It's definitely been added to the list of shows I will come back to once every couple years.