Because In these later seasons, he's about as exciting as a cardboard cut out version of himself. Makes me sad.
The rewatch is going well...
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Because In these later seasons, he's about as exciting as a cardboard cut out version of himself. Makes me sad.
I still like Chakotay, even after he doesn't really have any authority or power. I have to finish rewatching the rest of the show, but I remember him being very consistent with his actions and attitudes throughout. He was always a good man.
A character that I thought I liked more, but now am finding I dislike, is the Doctor. For some reason I remembered him as a noble character, but during this rewatch I am finding him to be a bit annoying.
Someone I thought I disliked but actually seem to like now, is Neelix. He is not as bad as I remembered him, I actually find him rather enthusiastic and genuinely happy.
A character that I thought I liked more, but now am finding I dislike, is the Doctor. For some reason I remembered him as a noble character, but during this rewatch I am finding him to be a bit annoying.
Someone I thought I disliked but actually seem to like now, is Neelix. He is not as bad as I remembered him, I actually find him rather enthusiastic and genuinely happy.
I'm having the exact same change of attitude toward the Doctor and Neelix. I think I was remembering early Neelix who was so cloying and annoying but I didn't remembering the later episodes where he calmed down. I never noticed before how egotistical and arrogant the Doctor could be at times.
Its interesting how our perspectives can change. The first time around I honestly didn't pay that much attention to Tom and B'Elanna. I thought they were a cute couple and all that but now for some reason they stand out more.
I' rewatching TNG now and this series is getting better and better every time i watch it!
For me it's a difference between watching TNG and Voyager.
When I watch TNG, I feel happy and rather content with most of it. I really like the characters too.
I didn't like that they killed off Tasha Yar and I do think that Wesley should have stayed in Starfleet instead of freaking out the way he did and follow that slimy Traveler around the universe.
But still it's a feeling of "what a great series".
As for Voyager, I still like the characters better than the TNG characters, I still like the premise and I still think that the first three seasons of Voyager were the best seasons ever in Star Trek.
Not to mention that neither season 1, season 2 or season 3 of Voyager had as many bum episodes as each season of TNG.
But when I watch Voyager, there's always a sense of "oh, how great this series could have been".
For me it's a difference between watching TNG and Voyager.
When I watch TNG, I feel happy and rather content with most of it. I really like the characters too.
I didn't like that they killed off Tasha Yar and I do think that Wesley should have stayed in Starfleet instead of freaking out the way he did and follow that slimy Traveler around the universe.
But still it's a feeling of "what a great series".
As for Voyager, I still like the characters better than the TNG characters, I still like the premise and I still think that the first three seasons of Voyager were the best seasons ever in Star Trek.
Not to mention that neither season 1, season 2 or season 3 of Voyager had as many bum episodes as each season of TNG.
But when I watch Voyager, there's always a sense of "oh, how great this series could have been".
Hope and Fear. Continuity! An unforseen result of Janeway's decision back in Scorpion catches up with her. Seven learns another lesson. Some more time off the trip. Quantum Slipstream Drive! Lots going on in this episode.
So maybe I'm a bit dense but I'm not understanding where all the 'hate' for the Borg Drones comes from.
Do people not realize that the Drones are not in charge of their own destiny? They have no free will? So why get so angry at beings that are mostly machines?
(I also couldn't understand Sisko being angry at Picard. I understand him being angry at what Picard/Locutus represented but it wasn't like Picard the human was going around causing havoc and disrupting people's lives.)
I understand these people are angry because the Borg took their family members. Did they not stop to think that their family members are now Borg themselves out there doing all the same 'Borg' things? Would they want someone else expressing these same attitudes toward their loved ones over things which they had no control?
I don't know...I would think if someone saw Seven the reaction they ought to have is "They separated you from the collective! It must be possible to find and bring my loved one back!"
That's just me.
Arturis of all people seemed to grasp this idea. It was tragic that his people suffered from the fallout of the Borg/Voyager alliance.
Nice for someone in the writer's room to realize that you don't HAVE to end a season on a cliff hanger.
He really really liked Season 4. Lots of episodes he would re-watch.
So maybe I'm a bit dense but I'm not understanding where all the 'hate' for the Borg Drones comes from.
Do people not realize that the Drones are not in charge of their own destiny? They have no free will? So why get so angry at beings that are mostly machines?
(I also couldn't understand Sisko being angry at Picard. I understand him being angry at what Picard/Locutus represented but it wasn't like Picard the human was going around causing havoc and disrupting people's lives.)
I understand these people are angry because the Borg took their family members. Did they not stop to think that their family members are now Borg themselves out there doing all the same 'Borg' things? Would they want someone else expressing these same attitudes toward their loved ones over things which they had no control?
I don't know...I would think if someone saw Seven the reaction they ought to have is "They separated you from the collective! It must be possible to find and bring my loved one back!"
That's just me.
Arturis of all people seemed to grasp this idea. It was tragic that his people suffered from the fallout of the Borg/Voyager alliance.
Nice for someone in the writer's room to realize that you don't HAVE to end a season on a cliff hanger.
He really really liked Season 4. Lots of episodes he would re-watch.
It wasn't until my recent rewatch that I realized just how much they did with him in the early seasons. Hell, with all the Kazon/Seska drama, he was basically the main star of the show!
It really is a shame that he got so boring later.
Season 2 was for all intents and purposes Chakotay's season. It's no wonder Beltran was upset about his character being sent to the back of the room.
Started Season 5. The Dark Night of the Soul Season.
Night. He did not remember ever seeing this one. He considered it an 'ensemble' episode and those are among his favorites. Most people seem to zero in on Janeway's depression but that barely registered with him. He enjoyed the fact that we briefly saw characters working together that normally do not and he especially liked the 'mutiny on the bridge' thing.
He had never seen Drone before either. Didn't have a much to say about it.
I would really like to skip Extreme Risk but unfortunately we can't skip the introduction of the Delta Flyer.
Night. He did not remember ever seeing this one. He considered it an 'ensemble' episode and those are among his favorites. Most people seem to zero in on Janeway's depression but that barely registered with him. He enjoyed the fact that we briefly saw characters working together that normally do not and he especially liked the 'mutiny on the bridge' thing.
He had never seen Drone before either. Didn't have a much to say about it.
I would really like to skip Extreme Risk but unfortunately we can't skip the introduction of the Delta Flyer.
What's wrong with Extreme Risk?I would really like to skip Extreme Risk but unfortunately we can't skip the introduction of the Delta Flyer.
What's wrong with Extreme Risk?I would really like to skip Extreme Risk but unfortunately we can't skip the introduction of the Delta Flyer.
For one thing even though I like the character I'm not a big fan of B'Elanna's episodes. They are almost like Seven and her individuality. Torres must deal with self acceptance or inner conflict. I would just as soon skip most of them.
There are things I like about it. I like the Delta Flyer and I'm glad they touch on the issues of self harm and depression but the episode just felt unfinished to me. I always leave it feeling there should have been more to the resolution than just her smiling at her pancakes. It's not that I 'hate' it or think its completely bad but I just feel frustrated every time I watch it so when it's just me I tend to skip it.
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I would really like to skip Extreme Risk but unfortunately we can't skip the introduction of the Delta Flyer.
Hasn't stopped me from skipping it. ZZzzzz
But it's Voyager. Single episodes only!
A depressed B'Ellanna for a whole season (or longer) would get annoying real fast. In my mind, I see the smiling at her pancakes more of a sign she's slowly recovering. Also, it's rare that Voyager acknowledges Trek continuity with the death of the Maquis. I thought B'Elanna was the perfect character for that. True, she's always the go-to person for inner conflict but that's what Trek has always done with the different 'stereotype' personalities.
Slowly recovering? From clinical depression? In the space of one episode?
If Trek can't explore mental health issues with any sincerity then it should simply steer clear of the subject altogether.
Oh and as I mentioned earlier in this thread, I still reckon being raped by Steth was the true catalyst for her emotional breakdown here.
If Trek can't explore mental health issues with any sincerity then it should simply steer clear of the subject altogether.
Oh and as I mentioned earlier in this thread, I still reckon being raped by Steth was the true catalyst for her emotional breakdown here.
But it's Voyager. Single episodes only!
Also, it's rare that Voyager acknowledges Trek continuity with the death of the Maquis. I thought B'Elanna was the perfect character for that. True, she's always the go-to person for inner conflict but that's what Trek has always done with the different 'stereotype' personalities.
All of that is true and for what it's worth I have no problem with Chakotay being the one to help her see what is really going on because they have a shared history. It's just when it gets all the way down to the end I'm always left with the feeling that there should have been another scene, perhaps with the Doctor or Janeway (unlike some I don't need to see another scene with Tom. I think the little bits in the Delta Flyer were enough to show that they were going to be ok). It's like it ends in the middle if that makes sense. I not something I can explain that easily.
We should be watching it tonight and then I'll give it a rest for a while.
And there's this. Worth considering.
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What's wrong with Extreme Risk?I would really like to skip Extreme Risk but unfortunately we can't skip the introduction of the Delta Flyer.
For one thing even though I like the character I'm not a big fan of B'Elanna's episodes. They are almost like Seven and her individuality. Torres must deal with self acceptance or inner conflict. I would just as soon skip most of them.
There are things I like about it. I like the Delta Flyer and I'm glad they touch on the issues of self harm and depression but the episode just felt unfinished to me. I always leave it feeling there should have been more to the resolution than just her smiling at her pancakes. It's not that I 'hate' it or think its completely bad but I just feel frustrated every time I watch it so when it's just me I tend to skip it.
But it's Voyager. Single episodes only!
Also, it's rare that Voyager acknowledges Trek continuity with the death of the Maquis. I thought B'Elanna was the perfect character for that. True, she's always the go-to person for inner conflict but that's what Trek has always done with the different 'stereotype' personalities.
I remember watching "Night" the first time. It ticked me off SO MUCH because of many things, but paramount among them was this conversation between Tom and B'Elanna.
TORRES: Predictable. The Novokavich gambit. You always use that opening move.
PARIS: That's because you always fall for it.
TORRES: I feel like we've played this match a hundred times.
PARIS: Derada is a game of subtlety.
TORRES: Too subtle for me.
PARIS: Hmm. I'll bet.
TORRES: What's that supposed to mean?
PARIS: Well, if it doesn't involve Klingon pain sticks...
I hated that because B'elanna doesn't get into anything
Klingon of her own volition. DON'T THESE WRITERS READ OTHER EPISODES BEFORE THEY'RE HIRED! I screamed at the TV derisively.But 2 episodes later those damn writers explained what was going on.
B'elanna, like her Star Fleet captain & mentor, had become depressed. Unlike her mentor, leaving the Void and getting "busy" with the next problem du jour didn't cure B'Elanna. And while she may have smiled at her pancakes, her depression wasn't magically cured at the end of "Extreme Risk" , it was just controlled enough to keep her off the disability roster and in the Engineering game.
I loved that while it may have been Janeway that confronted her in sickbay...
JANEWAY: No. It's not okay. And until you decide to be more forthcoming you'll remain under the Doctor's supervision. Which means you're off the shuttle project. I'm sorry.
TORRES: (She drops her head and sighs) I'm not.
JANEWAY: (Reaches out to pull B'Elanna's head up to look her in the eye) Now I know there's something wrong.
... it was Chakotay, her old Maquis Commander & friend who looked into her heart and confronted her until she voiced her real fears.
TORRES: You don't understand. It's not just the pain. I don't feel anything. Not about my dead friends, not about Tom, you, my job.
CHAKOTAY: Maybe you're afraid if you let yourself start to feel something, you might not be able to stop. You can't just shut off your emotions, B'Elanna. Sooner or later you're going to have to let yourself grieve.
Season 5 was a really good example of Trek NOT "fixing" B'Elanna's problem completely by the end of the ep.
The beauty of season 5, for B'Elanna, is nothing was easy. Her "progress" goes 1 step back for every 2 steps forward, all year long.
In "Nothing Human" she looks fine, is working "normally", then she is confronted with a program that represents all she as a Maquis hates and more importantly in the process of surviving the ordeal she loses the connection to that Star Fleet mentor we've been talking about.
(Torres is reading and burning incense.)
TORRES: Come in.
JANEWAY: At ease. Interesting fragrance. I'm surprised it hasn't set off the environmental alarms.
TORRES: It's a combination of mental relaxant and expeller of demons. It's an ancient Klingon remedy.
JANEWAY: Feeling any better?
TORRES: I'm alive.
JANEWAY: I hope you can understand why I went against your wishes, B'Elanna. Losing you was unacceptable. I know you're angry, but we need to put this behind us. Understood?
TORRES: Is that an order?
JANEWAY: Yes.
TORRES: You can't order someone to get rid of an emotion, Captain.
JANEWAY: And what emotion is that?
TORRES: You had no right to make that decision for me!
JANEWAY: I'm the Captain. You're my crewman. I did what I thought best. I get the feeling there are still a few demons in the air. Let's hope this (the incense) does the trick, huh?
Even in eps where her depression isn't front and center, B'elanna gets a ring side seat in how Janeway pushes the envelope to save other crew members. Like in "Latent Image"...
JANEWAY: Doctor.
EMH: Doctor? Hardly! A doctor retains his objectivity. I didn't do that, did I? Two patients, equal chances of survival and I chose the one I was closer to? I chose my friend? That's not in my programming! That's not what I was designed to do! Go ahead! Reprogram me! I'll lend you a hand! Let's start with this very day, this hour, this second!
JANEWAY: Computer, deactivate the EMH.
TORRES: Here we go again. Captain?
JANEWAY: It's as though there's a battle being fought inside him, between his original programming and what he's become. Our solution was to end that battle. What if we were wrong?
TORRES: We've seen what happens to him. In fact, we've seen it twice.
JANEWAY: Still, we allowed him to evolve, and at the first sign of trouble? We gave him a soul, B'Elanna. Do we have the right to take it away now?
She also sees how far Janeway's willing to go to forgive transgressors like in "Dark Frontier".
JANEWAY: And B'Elanna? Don't access personal databases without my authorization.
TORRES: Captain?
JANEWAY: There are protocols for observing privacy on this ship.
TORRES: No offense, but Seven of Nine is not on this ship anymore.
JANEWAY: I realize the two of you weren't exactly close. Regardless, we've just lost one of our own.
TORRES: She was never one of our own, Captain. Didn't she just prove that?
JANEWAY: I don't know what happened on that sphere and neither do you, Lieutenant. Carry on.
Of course, there are still eps to come that let her depression come back to the fore... in the form of anger management, or lack thereof. Like in "Juggernaut".
TUVOK: The flame, like emotion, is a primitive force. Left unchecked, it's chaotic, destructive. But if controlled it can be a powerful tool. The lamp controls the flame, as you must learn to control your emotions.
TORRES: I lost my temper. No big deal.
TUVOK: You destroyed the Doctor's holographic camera.
TORRES: I told him three times to leave Engineering, but he kept buzzing around snapping pictures for some photo essay.
TUVOK: A day in the life of the warp core.
TORRES: I apologized, and I replicated him a new camera.
TUVOK: You have a long history of emotional volatility. The point of this exercise is not to atone for past transgressions, but to prevent future ones.
TORRES: You can't order someone to meditate!
TUVOK: Commander Chakotay thinks otherwise.
So we did in fact get a season long look at her depression, and B'Elanna's "2 steps forward, 1 step back" course of treatment.
TORRES: Oh! Not another lecture about my emotions.
CHAKOTAY: No, a lecture about how to treat guests aboard this ship.
TORRES: Guests? Chakotay, these people are the scourge of the quadrant.
CHAKOTAY: Agreed, but right now they're our only hope of repairing thatfreighter, so I suggest you make friends.
TORRES: Diplomacy. Janeway's answer to everything.
CHAKOTAY: This isn't the Captain talking, it's me, and I'm giving you an order. Keep your temper in check. Understood? Understood?
TORRES: Yeah.
CHAKOTAY: I didn't hear you.
TORRES: Yes.
CHAKOTAY: B'Elanna, I need your expertise on this mission, not your bad mood.
TORRES: I'll see what I can do.
A season long look at one character's depression and how many of the other characters were not only affected by it but also managed to effect it in turn. A condition that kept B'Elanna and Janeway at arms length until episode 3 of the next season, "Barge of the Dead".
TORRES: It doesn't matter if you think it was real. It was real to me. Whatever it was, it changed me. I can't ignore that. I need to confront what's happened.
JANEWAY: I'm sorry.
TORRES: You know, you're just like her.
JANEWAY: Lieutenant?
TORRES: My mother. You're as dedicated to Starfleet principles as she was to Klingon honor. I know that we haven't always seen eye to eye, but despite our differences you helped me become a good officer. And I'd like to think that you're proud of me for it.
JANEWAY: I am.
TORRES: My mother never had the chance to be proud of me. I'd like her to know me the way you do. I don't want her to die thinking of me as a disgrace. You have to let me do this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2TZrjuSUuW8
Demons officially expelled... and progress finally going consistently forward.
[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2TZrjuSUuW8[/yt]
I respect your opinion but to me some of those examples are a real stretch. However to me the issue wasn't whether B'Elanna's depression was cured or not (although that was part of it) but the never ending focus on her internal conflict.
Unless someone is really really into B'Elanna and her journey (which is fine, we are all interested in different things) it just became a bit too much or at least it did for me anyway. I got tired of it. The Seven of Nine show didn't bother me half so much as this.
And once again I LIKE B'Elanna. I think its a great character. Roxanne Dawson did a good job with it. I just...I guess we all have our limits. This, Barge of the Dead, Muse, Dreadnought, (I don't count Nothing Human in this)...make my head hurt.
I did like Day of Honor and Lineage. Drive was ok although that was more of a shared episode.
Not saying these episodes were horrible or badly written or anything like that...it's just me and my personal opinions.
Unless someone is really really into B'Elanna and her journey (which is fine, we are all interested in different things) it just became a bit too much or at least it did for me anyway. I got tired of it. The Seven of Nine show didn't bother me half so much as this.
And once again I LIKE B'Elanna. I think its a great character. Roxanne Dawson did a good job with it. I just...I guess we all have our limits. This, Barge of the Dead, Muse, Dreadnought, (I don't count Nothing Human in this)...make my head hurt.
I did like Day of Honor and Lineage. Drive was ok although that was more of a shared episode.
Not saying these episodes were horrible or badly written or anything like that...it's just me and my personal opinions.
I gave this Be'lanna topic some thought. I adore her. Her stories I do not. It seems to me like an off balance where almost the entire senior staff is having an identity crisis. TOO MUCH. And we're still hating on Klingon/humans in the 24th? I am not an avid Trekker so pardon any ignorance on that subject.
I know there was and still are mixed heritage bullying in our reality, the viewers, but I wanted her to be confident in who she is. Tom Paris' "Daddy doesn't love me." The doctor, "I'm a computer who wants to be human." *sigh* I liked Tuvok's self acceptance.
Emotionless or not. He was calm. Perhaps I'm craving calm since I myself lean on the anxious side.
I get it, we can wander all over but if we're not being happy who we are then the message we send out "It's good to be human" rings false.
I just didn't want an entire ensemble(? is that the word?) delivering that message.
I know there was and still are mixed heritage bullying in our reality, the viewers, but I wanted her to be confident in who she is. Tom Paris' "Daddy doesn't love me." The doctor, "I'm a computer who wants to be human." *sigh* I liked Tuvok's self acceptance.
Emotionless or not. He was calm. Perhaps I'm craving calm since I myself lean on the anxious side. I get it, we can wander all over but if we're not being happy who we are then the message we send out "It's good to be human" rings false.
I just didn't want an entire ensemble(? is that the word?) delivering that message.
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