Star Trek 2009 timeline disruption, technology alteration

[Crazy Eddie]

Intercepting by another ship is not the question but whether the Enterprise can detect and know what's going on around it at warp speed. Not all fast things or phenomena will be starships but could be aliens like the "Lights of Zetar".

It's clear the Enterprise can make basic low-resolution scans ahead of itself, enough to navigate at the very least. It also shouldn't be forgotten that the ability to detect signals at FTL velocities would also require some capacity to be aware of what's going on outside the ship.

In a way, their agnosticism about the situation at vulcan is actually far more realistic than previous incarnations of Star Trek: they can scan Vulcan, they can listen for radio signals, and they can even tell that the rest of the fleet is no longer at warp. At high FTL speed, they're taking these scans from several tens of light seconds away; we shouldn't expect them to be able to see anything smaller than a largish asteroid until they're back at sublight velocity.

Sulu's answer is that the 09/STID Enterprise is unable to understand what's going around them at warp.

No, his answer is that HE is unable to understand what's happening at that specific moment, because what's happening -- another warp signature has been detected inside of their warp field, which everything he knows about the laws of physics tells him shouldn't be possible.

Note that the same thing happened to Spock in "Immunity Syndrome" where Kirk asks him what kind of barrier they passed through:

Spock: "A boundary between... where we were, and where we are."
Kirk:

I wish it were that simple. Right before Sulu says "Captain, I'm getting a reading that I don't understand." Carol explained to Kirk that the Vengeance can catch up with them at warp...

Explaining it to KIRK, who is otherwise convinced that this is impossible. She doesn't explain it to SULU, who would probably say "Well, that explains this reading then" if he had time to say anything at all.

You're assuming Sulu heard and understood what she was telling Kirk BEFORE his console started giving him this weirdly impossible sensor reading? By the time he interrupts her warning he's already been LOOKING at those numbers for a good twenty seconds.

The speed of the ship at the time of the comet is irrelevant as we're primarily looking at whether the Enterprise can scan for objects at long distance while at warp - which she can in the prior and later scenes.

And yet in those very same scenes it is suggested Enterprise is moving under warp power to keep pace with the bird of prey. Very little in the way of definite speed figures are given here, and it's vague enough that the ship could very well be moving at sublight velocity the entire time, warp drive or not (same thing happens in Elaan of Troyus).

 

[F. King Daniel]

Seems to me that the new movies maybe diverge from the way some technical manuals describe the workings of some Trek conceps, but that the on-screen demonstrations of them have varied so much over the years that IMO it fits as well as the rest (IE broad strokes, suspend your disbelief etc)

 

[publiusr]

I almost get the feeling the 09 vessels are in hyperspace.

I can almost see Vengeance running down Malevolence and spooking Gen Grievous

 

[blssdwlf]

Intercepting by another ship is not the question but whether the Enterprise can detect and know what's going on around it at warp speed. Not all fast things or phenomena will be starships but could be aliens like the "Lights of Zetar".

It's clear the Enterprise can make basic low-resolution scans ahead of itself, enough to navigate at the very least.

What's an example where the Enterprise in 09 or STID was able to do this?

It also shouldn't be forgotten that the ability to detect signals at FTL velocities would also require some capacity to be aware of what's going on outside the ship.

It does appear that they are able to communicate both ways at warp. It doesn't appear that they are able to use the communication as a form on navigation sense and avoid until the Vengeance shows up in STID.

they can scan Vulcan, they can listen for radio signals, and they can even tell that the rest of the fleet is no longer at warp.

If you go back to the dialogue and how the scene plays out, the Enterprise knows the fleet reached Vulcan because they were in contact with them by radio up till the point they were attacked. Their dialogue is focused on listening for (subspace?) radio transmissions. Not even looking for energy discharges from weapons fire, AFAIK.

PIKE: Hannity, hail the USS Truman.
HANNITY: All the other ships are out of warp, sir, and have arrived at Vulcan, but we seemed to have lost all contact.
UHURA: Sir, I pick up no Romulan transmission, or transmission of any kind in the area.
​

Sulu's answer is that the 09/STID Enterprise is unable to understand what's going around them at warp.

No, his answer is that HE is unable to understand what's happening at that specific moment, because what's happening -- another warp signature has been detected inside of their warp field, which everything he knows about the laws of physics tells him shouldn't be possible.

If your argument that they are able to sense and detect other ships at warp then there is no reason for Sulu to be baffled by a ship tailing them. Instead, he clearly cannot tell it's a ship or understand what he's seeing.

Note that the same thing happened to Spock in "Immunity Syndrome" where Kirk asks him what kind of barrier they passed through:

Spock: "A boundary between... where we were, and where we are."
Kirk:

It's not the same because Spock at least could identify it as a "boundary layer" and that they went through it. Here's the dialogue right before your line:

SPOCK: That sound was turbulence caused by the penetration of a boundary layer, Captain.
KIRK: What boundary layer?
SPOCK: Unknown.
KIRK: Boundary layer between what and what?
​

The point still stands that Sulu and the Enterprise couldn't tell that they had a starship right behind them at point-blank range.

I wish it were that simple. Right before Sulu says "Captain, I'm getting a reading that I don't understand." Carol explained to Kirk that the Vengeance can catch up with them at warp...

Explaining it to KIRK, who is otherwise convinced that this is impossible. She doesn't explain it to SULU, who would probably say "Well, that explains this reading then" if he had time to say anything at all.

You're assuming Sulu heard and understood what she was telling Kirk BEFORE his console started giving him this weirdly impossible sensor reading? By the time he interrupts her warning he's already been LOOKING at those numbers for a good twenty seconds.

No, I'm assuming Sulu would interrupt and say, "Captain, there's a ship coming behind us" if he or the Enterprise could determine that with their technology. If he was listening (and he could have been for orders from the Captain) then he might have even put two and two together. Alas, no.

The speed of the ship at the time of the comet is irrelevant as we're primarily looking at whether the Enterprise can scan for objects at long distance while at warp - which she can in the prior and later scenes.

And yet in those very same scenes it is suggested Enterprise is moving under warp power to keep pace with the bird of prey.

You're focusing on the comet scene after the Enterprise starts to match the BOP's speed.

KIRK: Negative. You and Mister Sulu will match its course and speed with the object on our sensors exactly, move for move. If he has sensors, I want him to think we're a reflection, an echo. Under no circumstances are you to cross into the Neutral Zone without my direct orders.
​

I'm referring to the max speed earlier as they are racing to Outpost 4.

SULU: Our speed is now maximum, sir.
​

And don't forget the emergency warp speed escape as they raced away from the plasma weapon and they could clearly see it chasing them down.


One more technological difference:

SCOTT: That's what I'm talking about. How'd you think I wound up here? I had a little debate with my instructor on the issue of relativistic physics and how it pertains to subspace travel. He seemed to think that the range of transporting something like a, like a grapefruit, was limited to about a hundred miles.
​

So, in 09 Trek, standard transporters are limited to 100 miles or abouts.

SCOTT: I told him that I could not only beam a grapefruit from one planet to the adjacent planet in the same system, which is easy by the way, I could do it with a lifeform. So, I tested it on Admiral Archer's prized beagle.
​

And to do the long-range beaming you'd have to have transwarp transporter equation.

SPOCK PRIME: What if I told you that your transwarp theory was correct? That it is indeed possible to beam onto a ship that is travelling at warp speed?
​

In TOS, transporter range was around 30,000km ("Obsession") and 40,000km in TNG ("A Matter of Honor"). I suppose Scott could've invented the transwarp beaming equation sometime in TNG when he was recovered after "Relics"? In anycase, 100 miles in 09 Trek for transporting seems very different.

 

[blssdwlf]

I almost get the feeling the 09 vessels are in hyperspace.

I can almost see Vengeance running down Malevolence and spooking Gen Grievous

Hah!

SPOCK PRIME: It's a trap!
​

 

[David cgc]

One more technological difference:

SCOTT: That's what I'm talking about. How'd you think I wound up here? I had a little debate with my instructor on the issue of relativistic physics and how it pertains to subspace travel. He seemed to think that the range of transporting something like a, like a grapefruit, was limited to about a hundred miles.
​

So, in 09 Trek, standard transporters are limited to 100 miles or abouts.

I'd say that was specific to "subspace" transporters, distinct from conventional transporters. The conversation doesn't really make sense, if it's talking about a standard transporter. Transporters are still in common use in the alternate reality (though not as common as in the Prime Universe, as much as because shuttlecraft VFX are more practical and visually interesting than they were fifty years ago as anything else), so the example of beaming a grapefruit only makes sense if it was an untried method of transporting. Plus, 100 miles is awfully short in astronomical terms. The lowest the space shuttle orbited was 190 miles, and even if the standard orbit was practically in-amosphere, then the transporter could only be used to move to and from a point directly below the ship.

That's not iron-clad, though. The only times where we're definitely seeing an unmodified JJ-verse transporter is during the rescue over Vulcan, and while the effects suggest the ship was a bit higher than 100 miles, the only hard number is that the first time we see the readout on Kirk's orbital skydive, his altitude is 102 km, or about 65 miles (and then Chekov says "20,000 meters," which could be anything from altitude to distance from the ship to distance to the drill platform. It's probably the drill. When he next reads a distance a few cuts later, it matches the graphic on the screen, so I don't know what to tell you). On the other hand, it wouldn't be the first time we had to assume some significant time-compression in editing in ST09, so who knows how long the landing party was falling before we cut to the bridge. Seconds? Hours? Weeks? It's all on the table!

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Intercepting by another ship is not the question but whether the Enterprise can detect and know what's going on around it at warp speed. Not all fast things or phenomena will be starships but could be aliens like the "Lights of Zetar".

It's clear the Enterprise can make basic low-resolution scans ahead of itself, enough to navigate at the very least.

What's an example where the Enterprise in 09 or STID was able to do this?

1) They were able to find Titan and drop out of warp in its upper atmosphere.
2) The Narada was able to pursue Spock's ship, detect when it dropped out of warp, and likewise slow to impulse speed to re-engage it
3) The Enterprise was able to drop out of warp approximately between the Narada and the Jellyfish with its phasers armed and ready, apparently having become aware -- somehow -- that Jellyfish was about to get squished.

The first two NECCESARILY require a starship to be able to scan ahead of itself, if not in exacting detail, at least enough to navigate. Enterprise would have had to be VERY precise with its midcourse guidance in order to safely drop out of warp where it did as opposed to, say, slamming directly into Titan or missing it by a hundred thousand kilometers and being seen. Same again for Narada, which manages to pursue the Jellyfish without overshooting it.

For the third, it is entirely possible that Enterprise followed from a discrete distance and only warped into position when it was clear some shit was going down. But again, there's the midcourse correction problem: It's almost impossible to maneuver that precisely at that rate of speed BLINDLY. They had to at least be able to SEE the Narada ahead of them to know when and where to drop out of warp; even if they couldn't detect the missile launch, they also would have known they needed to open fire as soon as they were at sublight.

It does appear that they are able to communicate both ways at warp. It doesn't appear that they are able to use the communication as a form on navigation sense and avoid until the Vengeance shows up in STID.

Actually, that's EXACTLY what it appears, since they clearly detected Vengeance approaching them long before it opened fire.

It wasn't a matter of SEEING the Vengeance; Sulu clearly saw it. It was a question of UNDERSTANDING it, as what he saw was supposed to be impossible.

If you go back to the dialogue and how the scene plays out, the Enterprise knows the fleet reached Vulcan because they were in contact with them by radio up till the point they were attacked. Their dialogue is focused on listening for (subspace?) radio transmissions.

It's not actually stated that the fleet was in contact with the Enterprise at all, or made any attempt to do so before Pike ordered a hail. It seems, instead, that Hannity's console was no longer detecting the subspace emissions from their warp drives; they'd gone "quiet." She didn't know why, and they didn't answer her call.

If your argument that they are able to sense and detect other ships at warp then there is no reason for Sulu to be baffled by a ship tailing them.

I repeat: "a ship tailing us" is supposed to be impossible. As I mentioned earlier, it would be like a sonar operator hearing a jet engine being fired under water. Is he REALLY going to assume they're about to get strafed by an F-14 tomcat at a depth of 1200 feet? Of course not... not unless somebody tells him that sound he's hearing is exactly what the Red October's caterpiller sounds like.

he clearly cannot tell it's a ship or understand what he's seeing.

Exactly.

Starship sensors aren't scrying mirrors, they don't turn helmsmen into wizards. What EXACTLY do those sensors key on? Radar? Lidar? Passive subspace? Gravitometers? Inferometers? Some combination of all of the above, probably.

So what EXACTLY is Sulu looking at?
Infrared: anomalous heat source astern
Radar: Almost nothing (Vengeance is supposed to be stealthy like that)
Lidar: Large object astern
Subspace radar: Nothing (Vengeance is jamming their comms)
Gravimetric: freaking huge spatial distortion astern
Deflectors: Something is pushing hard against them

Half his sensors tell him there's something there, the other half say there isn't. And meanwhile everyone on the ship seems to know that no other starship is capable of intercepting the Enterprise at warp.

So, Sulu is confused.

It's not the same because Spock at least could identify it as a "boundary layer" and that they went through it.

Much as Sulu was able to identify the thing that was chasing them as a "ship" after it fired on them.

Hindsight is weird like that.

No, I'm assuming Sulu would interrupt and say, "Captain, there's a ship coming behind us"

KIRK: There. That distortion. See it?
SULU: Yes sir. It's getting larger as we close in.
KIRK: Opinion, Mister Sulu?
SULU: I think it's an energy surge.
KIRK: Yes. Enough energy to hide a ship, wouldn't you say?
SULU: A cloaking device?
KIRK: RED ALERT, Mister Scott.
SCOTT: Aye sir.

How come Sulu didn't just say "I think it's a ship using a cloaking device"?

So, in 09 Trek, standard transporters are limited to 100 miles

Correction: TRANSWARP BEAMING is limited to about 100 miles. Apparently not because it's difficult to accomplish, but because it's incredibly hazardous for the thing being transported.

 

[Timo]

Even that doesn't mesh too well with the dialogue. Why would an egghead speaking theoretically, and about generic objects the size of grapefruit, be concerned with hazards to the transportee?

The discussion does sound as if even the best machines working well beyond their risk limits and consuming unrealistic amounts of resources would fail, according to conventional wisdom, which is why nobody should even bother thinking about such things.

We can add to this discussion the nuance that it's "transwarp" transporters specifically, thus circumventing the weirdness that ordinary transporters clearly already perform much better than that. After all, Scotty tells the anecdote specifically when addressed as the inventor of transwarp.

(Or we can argue that this discussion took place sometime in the 2120s, and Scotty is much older than he looks. )

Yet IMHO, our best bet is to say that Scotty's instructor was an idiot. We all have run into those at some point - people who don't believe in Newton's laws, people who think the capital of France is Baton Rogue-yes-that's-the-spelling. So Scotty just wanted to rub it in and demonstrate how standard transporters can send beagles to other star systems if you just ignore the safety limiters. And got it amply demonstrated who was the real idiot...

After all, the outcome of that anecdote was that Scotty declared his own "invention" complete nonsense! After the incident, he no longer believed in the thing. And thus he had told the story to Spock Prime just to convince the old fool that Scotty's status as inventor was nothing to be celebrated, and simply the reason for his banishment.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[blssdwlf]

I'd say that was specific to "subspace" transporters, distinct from conventional transporters. The only times where we're definitely seeing an unmodified JJ-verse transporter is during the rescue over Vulcan,

Hmm, okay, let's say it was specific to "subspace/transwarp" transporters that Scott was talking. Then is the modification just the new equation? It doesn't look like Scott did much modifying to the existing transporter hardware to make it work?

 

[blssdwlf]

It's clear the Enterprise can make basic low-resolution scans ahead of itself, enough to navigate at the very least.

What's an example where the Enterprise in 09 or STID was able to do this?

1) They were able to find Titan and drop out of warp in its upper atmosphere.

How is "finding" Titan different from traveling to Vulcan? In Vulcan's case they arrived blind to the planet and they didn't appear to do anything different for Titan.

2) The Narada was able to pursue Spock's ship, detect when it dropped out of warp, and likewise slow to impulse speed to re-engage it

The Narada and Spock's ship are future ships. It would make sense that they could detect each other and track through warp.

3) The Enterprise was able to drop out of warp approximately between the Narada and the Jellyfish with its phasers armed and ready, apparently having become aware -- somehow -- that Jellyfish was about to get squished.

Phasers armed and ready...

KIRK: Whatever happens, Mister Sulu, if you think you have the tactical advantage, you fire on that ship, even if we're still onboard. That's an order.
​

To be consistent, let's test 09's method to scan by communications.

UHURA: You better be. I'll be monitoring your frequency.
​

Kirk was on the Narada and Spock on the Jellyfish. At the time comms were restored when Spock destroyed the mining tool. Since we know the Enterprise can scan by communications it would appear that they tracked them down by communications.

It's not actually stated that the fleet was in contact with the Enterprise at all, or made any attempt to do so before Pike ordered a hail. It seems, instead, that Hannity's console was no longer detecting the subspace emissions from their warp drives; they'd gone "quiet." She didn't know why, and they didn't answer her call.

If Pike's only method to scan ahead is listen for radio transmissions why should we assume they are scanning for warp drives?

I repeat: "a ship tailing us" is supposed to be impossible.

And "passing through a boundary layer" versus "passing through a reading I don't understand" are very different from each other. What Sulu is seeing as possible or impossible only can work if he and the ship understood what they were seeing which they didn't.

So what EXACTLY is Sulu looking at?

If it's based on 09 Trek, then he's looking transmissions like they did in the 09 movie. Probably a subspace receiver and transmitter. Whether he can actually see something... Dunno. It's not like he switched the viewing screen to face aft so they can see the Vengeance

No, I'm assuming Sulu would interrupt and say, "Captain, there's a ship coming behind us"

KIRK: There. That distortion. See it?
SULU: Yes sir. It's getting larger as we close in.
KIRK: Opinion, Mister Sulu?
SULU: I think it's an energy surge.
KIRK: Yes. Enough energy to hide a ship, wouldn't you say?
SULU: A cloaking device?
KIRK: RED ALERT, Mister Scott.
SCOTT: Aye sir.

How come Sulu didn't just say "I think it's a ship using a cloaking device"?

Actually, Chekov already spotted the BOP earlier. And, the Enterprise's sensors couldn't see the BOP until at point-blank range. Is there any dialogue in STID to confirm that the Vengeance was cloaked?

CHEKOV: I'd swear something that was there sir.
KIRK: What did you see?
CHEKOV: For an instant ...a scout class vessel.
KIRK: Could be Grissom. Patch in the hailing frequency. Grissom, this is Enterprise calling. Please come in.
...
CHEKOV: Nothing on my scanners, sir.
KIRK: Short-range scan, Mister Chekov. Put it on visual, Mister Sulu.
...
KIRK: There. That distortion. See it?
SULU: Yes sir. It's getting larger as we close in.
​

Oh, and does Kirk or Sulu say it's something they "don't understand"? They do conclude that it's a cloaked ship.

So, in 09 Trek, standard transporters are limited to 100 miles

Correction: TRANSWARP BEAMING is limited to about 100 miles. Apparently not because it's difficult to accomplish, but because it's incredibly hazardous for the thing being transported.

Fair enough, unless the difference is only software (just one equation...)

 

[Deks]

In fairness, the Enterprise sensors did detect the Vengeance approaching at high Warp... Sulu however was the one who didn't understand the sensor readings though.

Other instances however don't seem to show us that the 09 Enterprise has an ability to scan distant star systems and things while in Warp - which really doesn't make sense.

Also, I don't buy they are at hyperspace with blind sensors. Even at Warp 10, the sensors onboard the shuttle from Voyager recorded ridiculous amount of information about the sector which Voyager occupied, and apparently the universe at large.

You would think that travelling at 'infinite velocity' would render the sensors less useful, and yet the 09 Trek seems to be flying blind while at Warp?
Doesn't track to be honest, and the movies are somewhat inconsistent.
Perhaps they will explore the technology in better detail in the next movie.

As for TW beaming being limited to 100 miles... doesn't make sense.
In 2009 movie, Spock gave Scotty his equation for TW beaming which he used to transport both Kirk and Scotty to the Enterprise, which was travelling away at Warp and was well over 100 miles away (think billions of km away more likely).

Oh and Khan beamed from Earth to Quonos.

 

[Go-Captain]

In fairness, the Enterprise sensors did detect the Vengeance approaching at high Warp... Sulu however was the one who didn't understand the sensor readings though.

Other instances however don't seem to show us that the 09 Enterprise has an ability to scan distant star systems and things while in Warp - which really doesn't make sense.

I think Sulu didn't detect Vengeance until it was right behind Enterprise, so like a kilometer or three behind.

I think it is more disappointing than non-sense. In fact, without other precedents I would think it's a neat handicap for an otherwise ultrafast star drive. Without the context of the rest of Trek, the surprise fleet destruction around Vulcan is indeed surprising. What is galling is they seem to lack any sort of beyond visual range sensors considering Enterprise was the only ship fighting Vengeance in Earth orbit, despite having seen extra ships docked to a station earlier in the movie. No one on Earth even knows anything is wrong, they are just going through their day as if all is normal, rather than evacuating San Fran, or activating ground based tractor beams or phasers. Also, even though Scotty sneaking on the Vengeance is explained a little in cut footage, we are left canonically that the super secret station has no sensors constantly scanning the volume of space around and facility.

Also, I don't buy they are at hyperspace with blind sensors. Even at Warp 10, the sensors onboard the shuttle from Voyager recorded ridiculous amount of information about the sector which Voyager occupied, and apparently the universe at large.

I think claiming they should have at-warp sensors because Voyager with all of its super drives is an unfair assertion since Voyager takes place a century later.

Perhaps they will explore the technology in better detail in the next movie.

The current guy directing/writing(?) seems like he really digs Star Trek in the old school. I think he has a good chance of doing well. Besides, I liked his The World's End. I think he might be good enough to notice the inconsistencies, and either work with them, or do something clever around them.

As for TW beaming being limited to 100 miles... doesn't make sense.
In 2009 movie, Spock gave Scotty his equation for TW beaming which he used to transport both Kirk and Scotty to the Enterprise, which was travelling away at Warp and was well over 100 miles away (think billions of km away more likely).

Oh and Khan beamed from Earth to Quonos.

I think they might be saying that Archer in Scotty's story must have been referring to a 100 mile limit on transwarp beaming, which does make more sense than the limit being in regard to regular beaming. I believe regular beaming has a 10,000 km range in ENT. So, we can take the quote to mean transwarp beaming has been around a long time, but no one could crack the range limit despite theory saying it should have unlimited range, Scotty finds the quirk to getting it to work, there it is, infinite range beaming with any transporter.

This could even be the sub-quantum beaming mentioned by Emory in ENT:"Daedalus". He said it could let a person beam from Earth to Vulcan, although he also says it was all BS, or an old failure, only so he could trick Starfleet into letting him use a Starship. He at least says a transporter like that would make Starships a thing of the past, and that's something the new movies really needs to tackle without shouting "Section 31!!!"

 

[Crazy Eddie]

I'd say that was specific to "subspace" transporters, distinct from conventional transporters. The only times where we're definitely seeing an unmodified JJ-verse transporter is during the rescue over Vulcan,

Hmm, okay, let's say it was specific to "subspace/transwarp" transporters that Scott was talking. Then is the modification just the new equation? It doesn't look like Scott did much modifying to the existing transporter hardware to make it work?

IIRC, that's pretty much all they had to do to accomplish the same trick on the Enterprise-D. Just change the settings on an existing transporter rig and send the beam on a subspace carrier wave.

Imagine if Scotty was the first person to discover the concept of "parabolic reflectors" in sound. He figures out that if you shape the reflector the right way, two people on opposite sides of the academy campus can hear each other talking as if they're right next to each other. He builds one, but gets the equation wrong; one of the testees shouts, and the other one has all of the fillings shaken out of his teeth.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

What's an example where the Enterprise in 09 or STID was able to do this?

1) They were able to find Titan and drop out of warp in its upper atmosphere.

How is "finding" Titan different from traveling to Vulcan? In Vulcan's case they arrived blind to the planet and they didn't appear to do anything different for Titan.

Which is also a good point: if nothing else, they had to at least be able to see VULCAN in order to arrive their safely. They're not flying blind, just too fast to see any details (and warp speed is very, VERY fast).

Kirk was on the Narada and Spock on the Jellyfish. At the time comms were restored when Spock destroyed the mining tool. Since we know the Enterprise can scan by communications it would appear that they tracked them down by communications.

Which is another point for them being able to receive and track signals outside of the ship while traveling at warp. If nothing else, this means they have access to information about the outside world. Not ALOT of information, but enough to figure out what's going on and what to do when they get there.

If Pike's only method to scan ahead is listen for radio transmissions why should we assume they are scanning for warp drives?

Because warp drives, like everything else, give off a certain amount of waste energy when they're in operation. Most likely, ALOT of energy, commonly referred to in Star Trek as a "warp signature." This warp signature is typically visible from a considerable distance, and is something most starships can "listen" for even if they aren't actively scanning space.

Incidentally, it's also (more or less) how Uhura tracked the bird of prey in the novelization of "Balance of Terror"

And "passing through a boundary layer" versus "passing through a reading I don't understand" are very different from each other.

Only in that Spock would never admit to not understanding anything.

What Sulu is seeing as possible or impossible only can work if he and the ship understood what they were seeing which they didn't.

Seeing something that's impossible usually leads to the reaction of "I don't understand what I'm seeing." That's the HUMAN reaction to seeing something that appears to be an illusion.

As for what "the ship" sees... what makes you think the Enterprise is capable of understanding anything?

Actually, Chekov already spotted the BOP earlier. And, the Enterprise's sensors couldn't see the BOP until at point-blank range.

And yet Sulu didn't answer that question with "I think it's a scout-class vessel using a cloaking device."

He thinks it's an energy surge. Which, strangely, is exactly what the communications officer on Grissom thought it was until it decloaked and locked weapons on them.

The only thing it DIDN'T look like was a ship. Kirk is the first to make that connection, and the soon-to-be Captain of USS Excelsior gets there moments later.


So what does it look like when one starship actively invades the transwarp field of another starship with the intention of firing on it? I don't really know. And I don't think their two-years-out-of-Starfleet-Academy helmsman knew either.

One thing's for sure: He does now.

 

[Deks]

I think claiming they should have at-warp sensors because Voyager with all of its super drives is an unfair assertion since Voyager takes place a century later.

More to the point, TOS had sensors that were able to scan distant star systems at Warp... so it really doesn't track that the 09 Enterprise doesn't.

The current guy directing/writing(?) seems like he really digs Star Trek in the old school. I think he has a good chance of doing well. Besides, I liked his The World's End. I think he might be good enough to notice the inconsistencies, and either work with them, or do something clever around them.

He needs to stick with very fast Warp drive though.
I never bought into the idea it only allowed about 1000 times C by the 24th century.
It doesn't track with the idea of the kind of society the Federation is (open to automated research, automation in general, sharing of ideas, resources, especially when you take the collective power of DOZENS of species working together - nevermind just 1 species that should be as unified as Humanity and without money in a society of abundance that focuses on higher things).

Even at say 10 000 Ly's per day for example, it would still take huge amount of time to properly explore the entire Milky Way galaxy.
And this would definitely give precedence to Gene's original TNG idea of SF exploring other galaxies with the Enterprise-D (which leaves more than enough time for Warp drive speeds to radically increase by that time - the Federation doing this all on its own).
Let us see those massive quantum jumps in technology (and not shying away from AI either).

I think they might be saying that Archer in Scotty's story must have been referring to a 100 mile limit on transwarp beaming, which does make more sense than the limit being in regard to regular beaming. I believe regular beaming has a 10,000 km range in ENT. So, we can take the quote to mean transwarp beaming has been around a long time, but no one could crack the range limit despite theory saying it should have unlimited range, Scotty finds the quirk to getting it to work, there it is, infinite range beaming with any transporter.

Well, I don't think a 100 mile limit was actually mentioned at all.
More to the point, Scotty I think was only talking about misplacing Archer's 'prized Beagle' - meaning that he likely beamed the dog somewhere which didn't re-materialize up until the second movie.

The NX-01 indeed had a low transporter range limit. Cannot remember the exact figure though.

Maybe the IDEA of TW beaming was around a while, but no one actually cracked it in the prime timeline until Scotty got to work again.
Of course, in the prime timeline, Scotty was in transporter stasis for decades, so it is possible that he might have figured out the final puzzle to the equation much earlier in Federation history - but it really doesn't track, because, what does that say about others in the Federation who had access to all this work?
Everyone needed to build on the knowledge of those that came before, and with the kind of resources the Feds have... it should have been a proverbial breeze.

But then again, the prime timeline was apparently 'dialed back' in terms of tech development by writers, because I guess they didn't want to make it 'too advanced' ... which doesn't make sense, because I'd prefer to see that, and have the writers adapt to it, instead of dumbing everything down.

This could even be the sub-quantum beaming mentioned by Emory in ENT:"Daedalus". He said it could let a person beam from Earth to Vulcan, although he also says it was all BS, or an old failure, only so he could trick Starfleet into letting him use a Starship. He at least says a transporter like that would make Starships a thing of the past, and that's something the new movies really needs to tackle without shouting "Section 31!!!"

Sub-quantum beaming might be a reference to subspace beaming though... or indeed, it could be a reference to TW beaming since it implies transportation from one solar system to the other.
But then again, Emory was in the 22nd century... the knowledge and theories they had would have been... limited compared to 23rd and 24th century.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Of course, in the prime timeline, Scotty was in transporter stasis for decades, so it is possible that he might have figured out the final puzzle to the equation much earlier in Federation history - but it really doesn't track, because, what does that say about others in the Federation who had access to all this work?
Everyone needed to build on the knowledge of those that came before, and with the kind of resources the Feds have... it should have been a proverbial breeze.

Section Thirty One confiscated and covered up Scotty's transwarp beaming equation in the Abramsverse and (going by the comics) forbade him from ever experimenting with it again. I would imagine they did something similar in the Prime Timeline, and Scotty and Spock are the only people left alive who know he discovered it at all.

OTOH, the thing that has struck me the most in ST09 was Spock's reaction to meeting Scotty. He remarks "You are Montgommery Scott... you are the same Montgommery Scott who discovered transwarp beaming." His choice of words suggests that Spock has never actually MET him before, but is merely familiar with his work. I know this is kind of a dead horse to beat, but I do consider this minor evidence for the theory that OldSpock isn't ACTUALLY from the prime universe at all, but from another alternate universe that resembled the Abramsverse in more ways than we would expect.

 

[blssdwlf]

IIRC, that's pretty much all they had to do to accomplish the same trick on the Enterprise-D. Just change the settings on an existing transporter rig and send the beam on a subspace carrier wave.

Doesn't seem that simple to just change some settings (equations) in TNG. From "Bloodlines" they had to do a bunch of modifications to get it to work. And it doesn't seem to be a secret at all since the crew just put it together based on the abandoned research...

LAFORGE: We think he's using some sort of subspace transporter to beam aboard the Enterprise.
PICARD: My understanding is that such devices were impractical.
DATA: The Federation abandoned its research in the field because the technology was found to be unreliable, as well as energy intensive.
LAFORGE: In order to transport matter through subspace, you have to put it into a state of quantum flux. It's very unstable.
PICARD: What range would that kind of transporter have?
DATA: In theory it could operate over several light years.
...
DATA: In order to do so, we would need to tie the ship's subspace field coils into the transporter system.
...
PICARD: The modifications you made to the transporter. Is there any way we could use a subspace transport from here to get me onto Bok's ship?
DATA: It may be possible, sir, but it would not be advisable.
PICARD: I'll take that as a yes. You're with me.
...
LAFORGE: There. I've aligned the field coils.
DATA: Phase dampers are in synch. Standing by to modulate the transport pattern.
LAFORGE: Captain, we might be able to get you over there, but I don't see how we're going to get you back.
PICARD: We'll deal with that when the time comes.
LAFORGE: Transport's going to take longer than normal. We have to shunt your pattern through the subspace field coils.
PICARD: Understood.
DATA: Initiating transport sequence now.
​

 

[blssdwlf]

1) They were able to find Titan and drop out of warp in its upper atmosphere.

How is "finding" Titan different from traveling to Vulcan? In Vulcan's case they arrived blind to the planet and they didn't appear to do anything different for Titan.

Which is also a good point: if nothing else, they had to at least be able to see VULCAN in order to arrive their safely. They're not flying blind, just too fast to see any details (and warp speed is very, VERY fast).

Question would be are they seeing Vulcan or merely navigating to where there star charts say Vulcan should be? Or are they setting course to a homing beacon (communication signal)?

If they were truly going "too fast" then one of the options Pike should have exercised was to slow down so he can get a good scan. Since he didn't do that and his only two choices were to make a communications scan or do a full stop out of warp it points to the inability to see what's around them at warp speed.

Which is another point for them being able to receive and track signals outside of the ship while traveling at warp. If nothing else, this means they have access to information about the outside world. Not ALOT of information, but enough to figure out what's going on and what to do when they get there.

I agree that they seem to have only the ability to use their communications in a manner of detecting things around them. It would appear that in 09 Trek, their ability to sense things was limited to direction-finding a subspace? radio transmission but they could not actively see what's in their path.

Because warp drives, like everything else, give off a certain amount of waste energy when they're in operation. Most likely, ALOT of energy, commonly referred to in Star Trek as a "warp signature." This warp signature is typically visible from a considerable distance, and is something most starships can "listen" for even if they aren't actively scanning space.

Yet in 09 Trek, they're listening for a "Romulan transmission" or any "transmission of any kind in the area." Not for warp signatures or energy discharges or big massive ship.

As for what "the ship" sees... what makes you think the Enterprise is capable of understanding anything?

From "The Immunity Syndrome":

SPOCK: I am well aware of that, Captain, but the computers contain nothing on this phenomenon. It is beyond our experience, and the new information is not yet significant.
​

And yet Sulu didn't answer that question with "I think it's a scout-class vessel using a cloaking device."

He thinks it's an energy surge. Which, strangely, is exactly what the communications officer on Grissom thought it was until it decloaked and locked weapons on them.

The only thing it DIDN'T look like was a ship. Kirk is the first to make that connection, and the soon-to-be Captain of USS Excelsior gets there moments later.

In TSFS, Sulu sees the energy surge at the same time Kirk does.

KIRK: There. That distortion. See it?
SULU: Yes sir. It's getting larger as we close in.
​

So here's the interesting connection - in TSFS they can't see the cloaked ship until they're close enough to see the distortion on the viewing screen. The Enterprise's sensors and computers are unable to see or identify it as a cloaked ship. This Sulu sees an "energy surge."

In STID (and arguably 09 Trek), the Enterprise can't see anything at warp speed. In STID, the Enterprise's sensors and computers are unable to see or identify the Vengeance while at warp. STID Sulu sees something that he "doesn't understand."

In both cases the ship's sensors and computers can't see the approaching ship. The only difference is that 09 Trek they can't see approaching uncloaked ships and uncloaked debris while at warp.

So what does it look like when one starship actively invades the transwarp field of another starship with the intention of firing on it?

To STID Enterprise it looks like a cloaked starship decloaking out of the blue

 

[blssdwlf]

In fairness, the Enterprise sensors did detect the Vengeance approaching at high Warp... Sulu however was the one who didn't understand the sensor readings though.

I forgot about that. In STID, the Enterprise while at sublight could detect via a "proximity alert" a "ship heading right for us". What's interesting is that Sulu still had to wait a bit before he could determine that the ship was not coming from the Quonos. So it would seem that a ship at warp gives off something that allows a ship at or near it's destination the ability to detect it. But, it takes a while for the detecting ship to figure out which direction the warp ship is coming in from which is weird.

This is the equivalent of someone on the ground *hearing the sound* of an approaching airplane and has to wait a bit before he can figure out which direction the sound is coming from.

In 2009 movie, Spock gave Scotty his equation for TW beaming which he used to transport both Kirk and Scotty to the Enterprise, which was travelling away at Warp and was well over 100 miles away (think billions of km away more likely).

Oh and Khan beamed from Earth to Quonos.

In all likelihood they were probably discussing the subspace transporter, although it would seem that a simple equation change would suggest the existing 09 transporter was already subspace based. Khan probably used the same transwarp beaming technology.

In fact, without other precedents I would think it's a neat handicap for an otherwise ultrafast star drive. Without the context of the rest of Trek, the surprise fleet destruction around Vulcan is indeed surprising.

Definitely. If 09 Trek universe went with a more Star Wars hyperspace approach then they would need to keep this handicap of being blind to almost everything except for communications...

If you watch the HISHE STID episode they do make fun of the transwarp beaming and other things that came out of STID as obsoleting starships and death.

 

[Deks]

I forgot about that. In STID, the Enterprise while at sublight could detect via a "proximity alert" a "ship heading right for us". What's interesting is that Sulu still had to wait a bit before he could determine that the ship was not coming from the Quonos. So it would seem that a ship at warp gives off something that allows a ship at or near it's destination the ability to detect it. But, it takes a while for the detecting ship to figure out which direction the warp ship is coming in from which is weird.

Thing to note about Federation starships - technology is ace... it's the people who are often PORTRAYED as being 'insufficient' thanks to Hollywood and their 'drama'.
Starships are loaded with sensors of all kinds with billions of parameters and can keep tracks of trillions upon trillions of things per second.
Humans by comparison hold a very small % of knowledge in their heads and cannot hope to match a computer in information retention and retrieval - however, given what SF officers are supposed to be exposed to in the first place (the knowledge, the training, etc.), they should definitely be far more competent than what they were portrayed in movies.

This is the equivalent of someone on the ground *hearing the sound* of an approaching airplane and has to wait a bit before he can figure out which direction the sound is coming from.

A more appropriate analogy would be more like hearing an approaching aeroplane but having 0 knowledge of what they are hearing in the first place.
After all, you cannot identify something that you have no knowledge about, and knowledge doesn't materialize out of thin air.
A computer scanner with necessary information knows what it is, but if you as a user don't know how to read it, it may as well be gibberish to you.
This is implies that Sulu might have been lacking in training, or someone else should have reported on the reading who knew how to read the sensors.
Sulu also made a very basic mistake in the 2009 movie of not disengaging the external inertial dampener as Spock said - though you would think that inertial dampeners are a GOOD thing, because they are supposed to protect the crew against extreme velocities that would otherwise turn the crew into mush.
For that matter, why would starships have 'external inertial dampeners'?
Wouldn't a more sensible question from Spock be something like: 'Have you disengaged the Warp drive standby mode?' (after all, the ship was docked and just departing the Starbase... so you wouldn't want a rookie or even someone by accident to accelerate to Warp through a Starbase).

In all likelihood they were probably discussing the subspace transporter, although it would seem that a simple equation change would suggest the existing 09 transporter was already subspace based. Khan probably used the same transwarp beaming technology.

Well, most Starfleet technology is subspace based, but transporters from the new movies were never mentioned to actively beam through subspace (as seen in TNG).
As such, it is more likely the system is a standard transporter.
However, subspace and transwarp transporters are technological OUTGROWTHS of the baseline technology... and it stands to reason you could modify the baseline technology to accommodate the TW function.

We have seen in TNG it took the crew some time to modify the actual hardware to support subspace beaming... which might indicate the technology is different compared to TW beaming and more easily interacts with baseline hardware through mostly necessary software adjustments.

However this is pure speculation, and a bit of a contradiction when you think about it because FTL technology in Trek is reliant on subspace to begin with.

Still, even though it was apparently 'decanonized' (though to be honest I really don't see why), Voyager's Threshold episode does seem to imply that achieving TW speed with baseline hardware is more than possible, albeit you do seem to need to reinforce the nacelle pylons and use a form of Dylithium that stays stable at higher warp frequencies.

I
Definitely. If 09 Trek universe went with a more Star Wars hyperspace approach then they would need to keep this handicap of being blind to almost everything except for communications...

I disagree.
Star Trek is not Star Wars, and there's 0 reason in Trek to allow for this kind of handicap (which is utterly ridiculous) when travelling at much higher Warp speeds (for example 2 000 to 10 000 Ly's per day).
For Star Wars this is understandable since they are a proverbial Capitalism in space where technology is effectively stagnant over thousands of years, and if some other explanations are taken into account, Hyperspace was taken from a much older race known as the Rakata (along with most pre-established routes - so none of the contemporary races of Wars galaxy actually made the Hyperdrive or set out to explore too much on their own).

Trek illustrates scientific and technological progression and highly modular/versatile technology that was developed by Humanity, and dozens of other species working together.
To this end, 'handicapping' Trek while travelling at fast Warp velocities for the sake of it is simply silly.
There's 0 reason to think the sensors would be blind past certain speeds, or at any speed at all - that's just writers who don't really know how to write properly... or they do know that sensors wouldn't be blind, but its the other people who dumb it down for their version of 'drama' to work (because they have 0 clue on how to write for the universe and setting in place, so they need to bring it down to what is easier for them).
You would imagine that with all that time it took to make the actual movies, logic, reason, some actual science and not to mention consistency would easily be part of the story so that it's not easily or at all 'poked at' (such as Earth's gravity catching the Enterprise and the Vengeance from hundreds of thousands of km away and 0 Starfleet starship activity in SOL, plus a distinctive LACK of the Earth Starbase, or for that matter moon colonies, orbital perimeters, etc.)

If you watch the HISHE STID episode they do make fun of the transwarp beaming and other things that came out of STID as obsoleting starships and death.

Starships wouldn't necessarily be obsolete due to TW beaming.
One question that arises is whether the planets they beam to would be suitable for hosting life, etc.
But with TW beaming, you would imagine they would have access to TW scanning as well, giving them detailed data about the planets they want to explore.

Starships however still wouldn't be necessarily useless, as you can discover many things in deep space itself that can be observed close by such as nebulae (which a starship can physically go inside and start charting, encountering different phenomena and how they interact with it).
Space born lifeforms, etc.

Starships wouldn't necessarily be useless, they would likely be delegated to different functions and wouldn't really function inside or around any inhabited system (what with planetary shields, highly advanced sensors, automated orbital defences, etc. etc.).