Star Trek 2009 timeline disruption, technology alteration

[fireproof78]

An engineer on the Kelvin may have gone on to be a part of the Constitution design team, one who advocated a "less is more" ideology that would give the class a far simpler and more elegant aesthetic.

It doesn't even need to be that direct. It could be as simple as one of the designers never meeting someone at a coffee shop for scones because the person they were supposed to meet was delayed because they had to cover someone else's shift because that someone else was busy consoling someone who's nephew was the Kelvin and they don't know if their alive or dead yet.

Butterfly effect is a helluva drug. It seems to be more limited in regards to Trek, not unlike a lot of fiction, as we still want people we recognize to show up, but there's room for all kinds of changes to take place as ripples from the Kelvin alter events even further from being directly related to it.

I always saw it as a matter of emphasis. Starfleet decided to emphasis larger and more combat oriented due to the loss of the Kelvin against a much, much, larger Romulan ship that had not been encountered before by Starfleet.

I think Crazy_Eddie highlights this in his Starfleet Guide (linked in his sig) that the Starfleet leadership felt that more combat emphasis was needed to be ready for another attack. This seems to be indicated by the change in weapons design (more pulse like rather than beam like), the larger ship design, as well as the deemphasis on developing transporter technology and other elements that developed in TOS-Prime.

I honestly see transwarp tech being abandoned to the tech trash pile for either lack of interest, or possible harm done to the user. No other reasons are really necessary, or, for me, really expected.

 

[Deks]

No, he handed them the formula for SUCCESSFUL transwarp beaming. The ability to do something a small number of times under special circumstances does NOT translate into the ability to do something any time you want as often as you want. That is the difference between "practical" and "possible."

Considering that the TW beaming in question was done from a planetoid to a vessel travelling many times FTL, I would imagine that practical day to day TW beaming from one planet to the other wouldn't be a problem in comparison.
And it can also be considered practical because 2 Humans were transported at the time. And of course, in STID, 1 genetically enhanced Human was beamed from Earth to Kronos.

I'm not saying the technology wouldn't be studied and tested for a year or more extensively before implemented in wide-scale use, but point of the matter is that they have a technology for working TW beaming that also beamed 2 Humans (which are usually more complex than most technology) to a target which was at the time moving at FTL.
I'd say that's a huge accomplishment and demonstrates the practical uses behind the technology when used to beam objects and people from one planet to the other.

I've noticed Trek Tech watchers sometimes struggle with analogies, so to break it down further: You can use transwarp beaming to move a person from one place to another, but if the technique is dangerous, financially/energy expensive, or if the benefits of using it outweigh the inherent risks (e.g. the possibility of materializing 500 feet above the surface of the planet you're beaming to) then its practicality will be relatively low. In short, transwarp beaming may well be the FASTEST way to move a person from one planet to another, in much the same way that an ICBM is the fastest way to move a person from one country to another. But we have seen nothing to suggest that this is the safest, most reliable, or even most effective way to do that.

Nothing in the 24th century series or even the movies indicate the dangers behind TW beaming.
Furthermore, money doesn't exist in the Federation, and nothing was mentioned that it is energy/resource intensive.
And even if it is more energy demanding, no one certainly made a mention of it.
Plus, if TW beaming had negative side-effects like travelling at TW velocities did in Voyager's Threshold episode (which is definitely not the same thing - considering that Tom was occupying the entire universe simultaneously and probably interacted with trillions upon trillions of unidentified phenomena that could have affected him at the same time - so to attribute this to TW velocity itself was moronic... but rather, it was likely down to his interaction of various phenomena in the whole universe that did the trick).

TW beaming by comparison doesn't seem to operate on the properties of occupying every point in the universe simultaneously.
The beam simply goes from point A to point B. Tom however did not have control of where his shuttle went.

Even in TNG, detailed scans of planetary systems usually require a starship to close to within a couple of light seconds or closer. Probes are used when the starship can't get that close itself, and THEY have to get within a couple of light seconds.

For detailed planetary analysis indeed, but not necessarily to gain general information on a planet that you intend to TW beam to from another planet.
Besides, did you miss my response about sending automated technology and probes to the planet of desire first through TW beaming before beaming the away team?

Neither are radiotelescopes and REGULAR telelscopes, but both have similar limitations of resolution and range.

And what is a subspace telescope if not a radiotelescope that operates via subspace radio?

Not the same thing by a long shot.
Subspace scanning technology seems far more different in comparison that also includes plethora of different amount of information as well.
Granted, detailed planetary analysis is usually acquired through orbital scanning and away teams on surface, however for TW beaming, you wouldn't need too detailed information.

Planet based senors could be far more powerful in comparison to Starship based sensors.
Also, if you combine that with something like the Argus array and subspace boosters that exist around the Federation, you'd likely be able to get much more detailed analysis - which is something we observed in Trek.
The 23rd century would likely have enough general data to TW beam automated probes to a system SF wants to explore and have that probe deploy automated 3d printers/replicators which can manufacture subspace boosters for sensors which can help in estimating conditions for Away Team beaming.

But scanning is always done at close range: You have to get close enough to something to see it in any detail, let alone examine it. How close you have to get depends on how big the thing is that you're looking at/looking for. If it were possible to take those kinds of detailed readings from a distance, the Federation wouldn't build starships, just a lot of really huge telescopes.

Actually, we don't know whether detailed analysis specifically requires proximity.
We do have references to starships DIRECTING their sensors to specific stellar phenomena or planets in gaining detailed analysis from light years away.
Starfleet ships however usually seem to scan large areas of space (ranging in hundreds of lightyears by the 24th century - or in case of Voyager's Astrometric sensors, 2500 ly's distance) to gain general image of the area along with various details - and I would imagine that several sensor passes might be conducted to gain more detailed data from a distance.

Janeway even wanted to trade detailed astrometric charts for an Isokinetic Canon which she said span quite a distance and were 'unusually precise' (I sincerely doubt Voyager explored them all by being there directly on the spot - rather it's more likely they gained detailed sensor data from a distance by directing their sensors to specific areas of passing interest).

And yet they couldn't tell if there was anyone still alive on the Axanari ship from 5km away.

Enterprise, like Voyager, is probably not something we should take seriously.

Why not discount all of canon in that case?
There's something to be said not taking Enterprise too seriously when the vessel was moving at FTL speeds, but dialogue stated they were passing through mere tens of thousands of km, and scanners that can detect DNA on a different ship.
Which do you think is more inconsistent and shouldn't be taken seriously?
I'd go with the dialogue that does't correspond to FTL.

Point is there's a difference between reading a DNA and ascertaining whether the crew of Axanari ship is alive - and besides, weren't those circumstances very unconventional, considering the Axanari vessel was effectively riddled with alien technology that interfered somewhat with NX-01 sensors?



Anyway... moving on.

We do know that Section 31 confiscated TW beaming technology - although do we have any concrete reason as to WHY they did this?
And... how could Starfleet allow this?
Also... wasn't Section 31 supposed to be top secret organisation, and not really all that 'public knowledge' as its implied in the movies?

One other thing that bugs me about SF using TW beaming.
They might not do it regardless because of the Temporal Prime Directive.

Then again, TOS was very casual about time travel experimentation to begin with, so SF in the 23rd century might not have any issues using knowledge from the future... especially after knowing that the timeline was already significantly altered... in which case, they might as well use the technology and even potentially share some less sensitive breakthroughs with their neighbours (to ease tensions and maintain a semblance of balance in the area).

 

[fireproof78]

Anyway... moving on.

We do know that Section 31 confiscated TW beaming technology - although do we have any concrete reason as to WHY they did this?
And... how could Starfleet allow this?

Admiral Marcus was probably instrumental in ensuring its removal so that it could be used by S31 without oversight or competition.

Also, if Starfleet discarded it, and it was used, plausible deniability becomes a political playing card as well.

Also... wasn't Section 31 supposed to be top secret organisation, and not really all that 'public knowledge' as its implied in the movies?

There is a difference between public knowledge and Starfleet knowledge. S31 probably has legitimate fronts, under different names, as part of their daily duties. Keep in mind, even in the American military, most jobs have two facets-the one you can talk about and the one you can't.

One other thing that bugs me about SF using TW beaming.
They might not do it regardless because of the Temporal Prime Directive.

Then again, TOS was very casual about time travel experimentation to begin with, so SF in the 23rd century might not have any issues using knowledge from the future... especially after knowing that the timeline was already significantly altered... in which case, they might as well use the technology and even potentially share some less sensitive breakthroughs with their neighbours (to ease tensions and maintain a semblance of balance in the area).

I think that casual attitude might be discarded and regarded more strictly with Nero's ship attacking the Federation. Admiral Marcus presented as a very hawkish, attack first in order to protect the Federation, Chief of Operations. It is not a far leap to imagine Starfleet under Marcus becoming wary of time travel and keeping any such tech under tight wraps.

I think with Marcus gone, that semblance of balance between powers might return, but who knows what damage was done?

 

[Go-Captain]

We do know that Section 31 confiscated TW beaming technology - although do we have any concrete reason as to WHY they did this?
And... how could Starfleet allow this?
Also... wasn't Section 31 supposed to be top secret organisation, and not really all that 'public knowledge' as its implied in the movies?

One other thing that bugs me about SF using TW beaming.
They might not do it regardless because of the Temporal Prime Directive.

Then again, TOS was very casual about time travel experimentation to begin with, so SF in the 23rd century might not have any issues using knowledge from the future... especially after knowing that the timeline was already significantly altered... in which case, they might as well use the technology and even potentially share some less sensitive breakthroughs with their neighbours (to ease tensions and maintain a semblance of balance in the area).

We only know Section 31 made a portable transporter, which was capable of a single use as a transwarp transporter. We don't know that transwarp beaming is secret. I'm not sure we even know the transporter was specifically a transwarp transporter considering how easy it was to modify a regular transporter into performing transwarp beaming. I really don't want it disappearing either, it is too significant.

Section 31 could make transwarp beaming secret by influencing key personnel to decide to keep it under wraps. However, it is extremely unlikely Scotty would ever follow along, and despite the surface image of Section 31 as a bunch of KGB creeps, they actually seem to stick to their principal of focusing purely on momentous external threats.

I agree that Section 31 shouldn't have been mentioned, and I would go so far as to say they shouldn't have been hinted at either. They are nothing more than a throw away line in Star Trek Into Darkness, which makes them and the screenplay writer look bad.

The Time Police are useless, they only interfere in the past if it is a time war, or matter of personal vengeance. It seems unlikely they would go back to stop the introduction of transwarp beaming when they could have instead stopped Nero from going to the past. Nero and his ship are far more significant alterations to the timeline. It is also far enough in the past that a sense of a, or actual, temporal prime directive shouldn't exist yet, even with events having been accelerated along. If anything, Archer's experience should show the value of using gifts from the future, so it seems completely arbitrary, not the first time, for him to make one up.

Indeed, the TOS attitude to time travel was one of unbridled curiosity, although it did seem to get a tamper once they realized how easy it is to screw everything up. I would stick to the attitude of it being an exciting frontier which must be explored, even if it is potentially disastrous. No, because it is potentially disastrous they must explore it.

 

[T'Girl]

And even if it is more energy demanding, no one certainly made a mention of it.

The TW device in Khan's little "fighter" was capable of beaming him from the fighter to Kronos, no mention of the fighter having any non-standard power sources or equipment other than the device that Scotty was able to carry with one arm.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

No, he handed them the formula for SUCCESSFUL transwarp beaming. The ability to do something a small number of times under special circumstances does NOT translate into the ability to do something any time you want as often as you want. That is the difference between "practical" and "possible."

Considering that the TW beaming in question was done from a planetoid to a vessel travelling many times FTL...

ONCE.

And one of the guys who tried it was almost killed in the process.

Consider this: we have, right now, an entire elite corps of soldiers who are trained to jump out of airplanes with parachutes and then fight a bunch of enemies within seconds of hitting the ground. We've been doing this for for the better part of a century now, and it's WAY less dangerous than transwarp beaming.

So, why is THIS still a thing?

We have parachutes now. Did the 101st airborne not get the memo? Or is "jump out of an airplane and throw your parachute" NOT the safest way to deliver troops into combat? Especially since we've had the technology for years to recover partroopers without having to land.

I would imagine that practical day to day TW beaming from one planet to the other wouldn't be a problem in comparison.

See above: commercial airlines still prefer to LAND their planes rather than push their passengers out of the door from 30,000 feet. The main reasons for that are comfort and safety; transwarp beaming is almost certainly less of both.

I'm not saying the technology wouldn't be studied and tested for a year or more extensively before implemented in wide-scale use

Try DECADES, and then most likely never for wide-scale use.

You're thinking of transwarp beaming as a logical next step up from conventional beaming. It's not: it's like trying to use a rocket to deliver the mail.

I'd say that's a huge accomplishment and demonstrates the practical uses behind the technology when used to beam objects and people from one planet to the other.

But see, it WASN'T a huge accomplishment; Scotty already knew it would work, he just didn't have the equations worked out to be able to hit the target reliably. It was his failure to hit the target that apparently got him marooned in the first place.

Ironically, even his success almost got him killed. When you consider that they had absolutely no control over exactly what part of the ship they materialized on, the margin for error being what it was, the chances of their materializing OUTSIDE the ship are actually pretty high.

Nothing in the 24th century series or even the movies indicate the dangers behind TW beaming.

Um...

Furthermore, money doesn't exist in the Federation

Yes it does. Just not for civilians on Earth.

Everyone else -- even Starfleet -- uses the Federation Credit.

For detailed planetary analysis indeed, but not necessarily to gain general information on a planet that you intend to TW beam to from another planet.

Attempting to beam from one planet to another with only a vague "distant spec in a telescope" picture of your actual landing site is, to put it bluntly, a REALLY stupid way to die.

Granted, detailed planetary analysis is usually acquired through orbital scanning and away teams on surface, however for TW beaming, you wouldn't need too detailed information.

You need to know at least three things:
1) Latitude
2) Longitude
3) Altitude

And you need to know these things with a VERY high degree of precision, not more than three or four meters really. If you misjudge the altitude by 3 meters in either direction, you've either beamed the entire away team directly into their graves, or you've broken all of their legs when they hit the ground. If you miss their landing sight be a few meters, or worse, fail to notice a physical obstruction AT the landing site, two of the six transportees materialize inside of a tree trunk and one of them is immediately killed and eaten by a thresher maw.

Again: beaming blind to a planet light years away is, more often than not, a really stupid way to die.

Actually, we don't know whether detailed analysis specifically requires proximity.

Yes we do. That is, in fact, the entire reason why tricorders exist.

I sincerely doubt Voyager explored them all by being there directly on the spot

This is Janeway we're talking about. 90% of the crap that happened to Voyager was the direct result of her going out of her way to stop and look at something.

Why not discount all of canon in that case?

Because not all of cannon is as ridiculous as Enterprise and Voyager.

Point is there's a difference between reading a DNA and ascertaining whether the crew of Axanari ship is alive

Yeah: reading DNA is ALOT harder to do from a distance.

We do know that Section 31 confiscated TW beaming technology - although do we have any concrete reason as to WHY they did this?

That's kind of obvious, isn't it? To keep it to themselves and use it for espionage.

And... how could Starfleet allow this?

It's Section 31, dude. Take a guess.

Also... wasn't Section 31 supposed to be top secret organisation, and not really all that 'public knowledge' as its implied in the movies?

Yes, which is why no one knew the Kelvin archive was a Section 31 base, and why Kirk had never heard of it before Marcus told him about it, and why Marcus never told anyone else about it, and why no one even MENTIONS Section 31 after that initial meeting with Marcus. No one -- especially Kirk -- actually knows the significance of the phrase "Section Thirty One" in the broader context of Star Trek; he still doesn't know what it REALLY is or how it's involved with Khan. He probably never will.

One other thing that bugs me about SF using TW beaming.
They might not do it regardless because of the Temporal Prime Directive.

Oh, I'm pretty sure they did it in BOTH universes more or less the same way. Ask yourself, for example, just how is it that Sloan managed to beam in and out of Doctor Bashir's quarters without anyone having any idea where he was beaming FROM. Assuming S31 agents are just crazy like that (and they are) it's entirely possible that Sloan beamed there directly from the Kelvin Archive.

 

[T'Girl]

Yes it does. Just not for civilians on Earth.

And probably them too, someone here bought Quark's damaged shuttle in the 24th century.

 

[Go-Captain]

Ask yourself, for example, just how is it that Sloan managed to beam in and out of Doctor Bashir's quarters without anyone having any idea where he was beaming FROM. Assuming S31 agents are just crazy like that (and they are) it's entirely possible that Sloan beamed there directly from the Kelvin Archive.

Cloaked (possibly phase cloaked) ship with stealthy beaming, or use of subspace beaming based on the Ferengi research from TNG, or hologram projected through dimensional beaming (lol). All of those fit the period and known available technology.
http://www.trekbbs.com//www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/

 

[Deks]

Considering that the TW beaming in question was done from a planetoid to a vessel travelling many times FTL...

ONCE.

And one of the guys who tried it was almost killed in the process.
[/quote]

Shall we also ignore that Scotty almost getting killed was a result of him being transported to a starship that was moving (quite likely) at thousands of times the speeds light?

Comparing that to beaming from one planet to the other is not the same.

Consider this: we have, right now, an entire elite corps of soldiers who are trained to jump out of airplanes with parachutes and then fight a bunch of enemies within seconds of hitting the ground. We've been doing this for for the better part of a century now, and it's WAY less dangerous than transwarp beaming.

Not even remotely the same thing.
In Star Trek, the Federation by the 23rd century effectively mastered non-TW beaming to the point where its effectively used on starships at most times.

So, why is THIS still a thing?

We have parachutes now. Did the 101st airborne not get the memo? Or is "jump out of an airplane and throw your parachute" NOT the safest way to deliver troops into combat? Especially since we've had the technology for years to recover partroopers without having to land.

You're comparing one radically different method of delivering troops and supplies/tech into a certain terrain (which btw has been and continues to be commonly used - in peacetime that is in areas that don't have ).

See above: commercial airlines still prefer to LAND their planes rather than push their passengers out of the door from 30,000 feet. The main reasons for that are comfort and safety; transwarp beaming is almost certainly less of both.

You do realize that you are comparing apples with oranges, right?
TW beaming has far more in common with regular beaming than an airplane that lands and an airplane that drops deliveries and people via parachutes?

Try DECADES, and then most likely never for wide-scale use.

Try thinking less linearly.
This is a spacefaring civlization that is roughly late Type 1 on a Kardashev scale, approaching very fast Type 2 civilization.
Technical and scientific breakthroughs aren't linear.
They aren't linear in real life either.
With as powerful computers Federation has at its disposal, they would realistically be making quantum leaps on a regular basis (especially when you combine the technical and scientific breakthroughs from dozens of worlds that are part of the Federation).

You're thinking of transwarp beaming as a logical next step up from conventional beaming. It's not: it's like trying to use a rocket to deliver the mail.

You are making quite odd comparisons that have little to no relation to Trek.
Trek is the series that effectively tries to somewhat emulate the notion of technical and scientific progress, so in a sense, TW beaming WOULD likely become the next step up from conventional beaming... especially if you want to avoid the hassle of getting to a starship that needs to go to FTL and reach its destination.
Why bother?
Just send automated probes with automated replicators, set up scanning arrays which will boost subspace and transporter signals to give you detailed analysis in the immediate area, and if its safe, send the away team.

Starships can be delegated to exploration to deep space and immediate surroundings inside the solar system of interest where they TW beam into.

But see, it WASN'T a huge accomplishment; Scotty already knew it would work, he just didn't have the equations worked out to be able to hit the target reliably. It was his failure to hit the target that apparently got him marooned in the first place.

My point was that is was a huge accomplishment in terms of having for all intense and purposes WORKING TW beaming capability that does the job.
Spock simply facilitated this by providing Scotty with an equation his older counterpart in the 23rd or 24th century came up with.

Ironically, even his success almost got him killed. When you consider that they had absolutely no control over exactly what part of the ship they materialized on, the margin for error being what it was, the chances of their materializing OUTSIDE the ship are actually pretty high.

Correction, they were beaming to a starship moving faster than light - you keep omitting this little premise as if somehow it would apply to beaming from one planet to the other.
Calculating that takes quite a bit of processing power, but overall speaking, it was a success.
Yes, Scotty was almost killed, but it was a reasonable margin for error, and if you also know, certain risks accompany regular beaming even in the 24th century where crews have risked materializing into ground.

Point is, if you send automated probes first to survey an area and give you preliminary data about the environment you are beaming into, you minimize the possibility of something going wrong.
At that point, it's effectively as safe as regular beaming.

Yes it does. Just not for civilians on Earth.
Everyone else -- even Starfleet -- uses the Federation Credit.

We only heard Federation Credits being used exactly once (if I'm not mistaken).
It was at 'Encounter at Farpoint', and only with a civilization that wasn't even part of the Federation.

In Unification episode, a vessel at the edge of the Neutral Zone was able to produce a passable picture of Spock on Romulus.
I would imagine that long range sensors would be more than capable of providing baseline data about planets that SF wants to TW beam Away Teams to.

With multiple mentions throughout TNG, DS9 and even VOY that the Federation doesn't use money, it is more likely that Federation Credits are used rarely... mainly when trading with species that still use a monetary based economy, or want to get something that they cannot inside Federation space.

Attempting to beam from one planet to another with only a vague "distant spec in a telescope" picture of your actual landing site is, to put it bluntly, a REALLY stupid way to die.

1. Subspace sensors wouldn't present you with a 'vague distant spec in a telescope'.
2. It's not a telescope.
3. It's subspace scanning technology that has range in multiple dozens to possibly hundreds of LY's, and more than likely provides enough detail to gain general information about the planet which would be more than enough to beam an automated probe and automated replicator which can establish real time subspace connection for more detailed sensor analysis.

You need to know at least three things:
1) Latitude
2) Longitude
3) Altitude

And you need to know these things with a VERY high degree of precision, not more than three or four meters really. If you misjudge the altitude by 3 meters in either direction, you've either beamed the entire away team directly into their graves, or you've broken all of their legs when they hit the ground. If you miss their landing sight be a few meters, or worse, fail to notice a physical obstruction AT the landing site, two of the six transportees materialize inside of a tree trunk and one of them is immediately killed and eaten by a thresher maw.

Again: beaming blind to a planet light years away is, more often than not, a really stupid way to die.

TNG Parallels episode shows us how the Argus array was used by the Cardassians to transmit detailed images of DS5, Starbase 47 and Utopia Planitia at Mars (all of which were Lightyears away).
Considering how detailed the images were, I would imagine other information was readily available.

Subspace sensors would work along similar lines, but we've seen that they can function along multiple dozens or hundreds of Ly's for gaining general information - general, in the sense that the basics like you mentioned would be more than enough.

Even today with our primitive imaging telescopes we are capable of providing rough estimates of planets sizes, and other types of data.

What makes you think that Starfleet in the 23rd century with FTL subspace sensors and unimaginably faster (and far more capable) computers wouldn't be able to provide a DETAILED baseline of Latitude, Longitude and Altitude?

Yes we do. That is, in fact, the entire reason why tricorders exist.

They exist for closeup analysis about something that the ships sensors might not be programmed to look for or scan in detail, or are being interfered with from orbit and require inside scanning (both of which we have examples of).
Even LaForge mentioned in TNG that the sensors aren't programmed to scan for every single thing and that they would need to be modified for that.


[uote]
This is Janeway we're talking about. 90% of the crap that happened to Voyager was the direct result of her going out of her way to stop and look at something.
[/quote]

Well, duh... they are explorers after all, in which case, it doesn't make it that far fetched... however, they had Astrometric Sensors by then, so the technology would be 10x more accurate than regular sensor scans.

Because not all of cannon is as ridiculous as Enterprise and Voyager.

As opposed to the ridiculousness of DS9 with Bajorans being a space faring civilization and still thinking that the so-called 'Prophets' are 'gods', even though most of them read numerous reports from other space faring civilizations such as the Federation that encountered alien entities posing as 'gods' on far too many occasions.
I find THAT eminently far more ridiculous than the rest of Trek.
Not to mention the stupidity with 2000 Dominion ships being enough to conquer the ENTIRE Alpha and Beta Quadrants.

Yeah: reading DNA is ALOT harder to do from a distance.

In your perception.
We are talking about a spacefaring civilization that managed to develop far more complex technologies.
Sensors for example, given the situation, have a harder or easier time reading certain things.
Recognizing that there's eminently different DNA might not be difficult as opposed to measuring how strong or weak lifesigns are (which likely uses much more parameters to provide a reliable estimate as opposed to highly specific signature that detects certain DNA).

That's kind of obvious, isn't it? To keep it to themselves and use it for espionage.

It's Section 31, dude. Take a guess.

Which is eminently stupid because they could be enriching the Federation on the whole (and possibly ease tensions if some of the technology is shared with neighbouring powers) and further is exploratory capabilities.

Oh, I'm pretty sure they did it in BOTH universes more or less the same way. Ask yourself, for example, just how is it that Sloan managed to beam in and out of Doctor Bashir's quarters without anyone having any idea where he was beaming FROM. Assuming S31 agents are just crazy like that (and they are) it's entirely possible that Sloan beamed there directly from the Kelvin Archive.

We don't know at which point TW beaming was developed in the regular timeline by Scotty.
If Spock is any indication, then it would likely be sometime in the 24th century because we've seen nothing to indicate this being done in the 23rd - unless we take the Excelsior's forgotten TW drive into account, which might have given Scotty some ideas for TW beaming, but before he got trapped in transporter suspension.

Also, Spock would need access to this data too, which begs the question on how he acquired the data if it was classified (which might mean it wasn't classified at all... at least not by 2387, the point from which Spock travelled back in time if I'm not mistaken)

It is also very possible that S31 was using stealth beaming methods and possibly cloaking technology.
If they are supposed to be a secret organization that no one knows they exist, they would likely have an upper hand when doing their thing inside Federation space.
They could circumvent virtually every potential security contingency (since it would have to be based on Starfleet regulations).

 

[T'Girl]

We don't know at which point TW beaming was developed in the regular timeline by Scotty.

I figure Scotty started researching TW beaming after the Enterprise intercepted Gary Seven's transporter beam.

Began with the sensor reading of that event and went from there, from the start Scotty knew it was possible.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Shall we also ignore that Scotty almost getting killed was a result of him being transported to a starship that was moving (quite likely) at thousands of times the speeds light?

Yes, because that's not what happened. He was almost killed because at the distances involved in that transport Spock had only the vaguest idea on what part of the ship the two of them would end up. It just so happens that one of them ended up materialized inside of an incredibly dangerous piece of machinery.

Comparing that to beaming from one planet to the other is not the same.

It's EXACTLY the same, actually, since the hazard is produced by the same lack of information about your landing site. If I set my transporter to put you "somewhere within 500 meters of McCormick Place" without being able to narrow it down, then you are running the risk of materializing in mid air, deep under ground, or even on the surface of the planet directly in the path of rush hour traffic. If I can't be more precise than that, your chances of survival are NOT very promising.

In Star Trek, the Federation by the 23rd century effectively mastered non-TW beaming to the point where its effectively used on starships at most times.

Yes, in exactly the same way non-parachute egress from an aircraft is used at most times.

It's a safety issue is all.

This is a spacefaring civlization that is roughly late Type 1 on a Kardashev scale, approaching very fast Type 2 civilization.

First of all, no they're not. Not even close.

Second of all, even if they were, that has nothing whatsoever to do with the practical limitations of technology. Just because we've mastered nuclear power doesn't mean we all have thermonuclear toaster ovens.

With as powerful computers Federation has at its disposal, they would realistically be making quantum leaps on a regular basis

Which changes nothing, since the UNIVERSE in which they exist isn't getting smaller or simpler in a non-linear progression. There IS a practical limit to which a particular form of technology can no longer be improved. When that point of diminishing returns is reached, we generally stop improving it and focus our efforts on OTHER forms of technology where improvement can still be achieved.

Star Trek ITSELF is very explicit about this: In "Relics" Geordi tells Scotty that the basic impulse engine design hasn't changed much in almost a hundred years, and in the same episode Scotty is quoting regulations Geordi was trained on that HE HIMSELF WROTE a century earlier. The basic technology of phasers and photon torpedoes is also unchanged for almost TWO centuries, and the computer systems that run those starships are not noticeably more advanced than 21st century PCs.

What Star Trek has actually SHOWN us does not resemble what you're describing. More importantly, what it has SHOWN us is that transwarp beaming over long distances is inherently dangerous because of the large degree of uncertainty in the exact position of your landing site. Even conventional beaming is just as hazardous when the transporter doesn't have a clear view of what it's beaming into.

Trek is the series that effectively tries to somewhat emulate the notion of technical and scientific progress

No it isn't.

It's the series that emulates "Wagon train" only in space, in the future, with a space navy type ship and advanced cool technology. Making progress is actually the OPPOSITE of what Star Trek does, since almost everything they invent from one week to the next is usually forgotten by the start of the next episode.

This is, in fact, the THIRD time we have seen this kind of technology being encountered by the Federation and the FOURTH time they have failed to develop it to its logical conclusion. Either there are some real practical limitations to the utility of these technologies, or we are seeing a fairly conservative, risk-averse society that only innovates on a case-by-case basis (or some combination of both).

My point was that is was a huge accomplishment in terms of having for all intense and purposes WORKING TW beaming capability that does the job.

I got your point. I'm saying the ability to perform transwarp beaming isn't an accomplishment, it's the ability to HIT THE TARGET that's the accomplishment. This isn't even a new technology here, it's just a new targeting algorithm that takes SOME of the uncertainty out of beaming.

And bear in mind, this is Scotty playing around with these equations as a cadet. So the most important question is not "Can it be done?" the most important question is "How useful is this?"

Of course it can be done. It's just not as useful as you think it is, for the reasons already described. For all the things you'd have to tack on to it in order to MAKE it useful, you might as well just send a starship.

Correction, they were beaming to a starship moving faster than light - you keep omitting this little premise as if somehow it would apply to beaming from one planet to the other.

I'm omitting it because it's completely irrelevant. You're pointing at a variation in relative velocities on the order of SEVERAL TRILLION METERS PER SECOND as if that explains why Scotty missed his target by two and a half meters.

and if you also know, certain risks accompany regular beaming even in the 24th century where crews have risked materializing into ground.

Actually that goes back as far as "The Cage" when Spock CLEARLY articulated a nonzero risk of them all beaming directly into solid rock. The risk was high enough that Number One even gave the away team members a chance to bail out on what was, at best, a desperation tactic with a small chance of survival.

This for CONVENTIONAL beaming without a clearly defined target. Why you would expect Starfleet to adopt this as STANDARD PROCEDURE is beyond me.

Point is, if you send automated probes first to survey an area and give you preliminary data about the environment you are beaming into, you minimize the possibility of something going wrong.
At that point, it's effectively as safe as regular beaming.

Far less so, actually, since the lack of a starship in orbit leaves the away team unable to deal with any situation that might result from something happening to the probe ("Galileo Seven," "Metamorphosis", "Interface,")
or an alien ship or entity unexpectedly entering orbit with hostile intent ("Arena," "Day of the Dove", "Friday's Child", "The Doomsday Machine", "A Private Little War", "Encounter at Farpoint", "Gambit","Contagion", "Peak Performance", "The Ensigns of Command", "Silicon Avatar")
or something on the surface interfering with transporter operations ("The Apple", "Catspaw", "Specter of the Gun", "Whom Gods Destroy")
or the landing party gets injured and/or captured by hostile aliens (every third episode of TOS).

Hell, there have been times when the landing party's entire situation goes from bad to worse PURELY because they relied on transporters instead of using a shuttlecraft. Imagine how much worse that situation becomes when you don't even have a ship in orbit.

We only heard Federation Credits being used exactly once (if I'm not mistaken).

You are mistaken.

UHURA: Are you selling them?
BARMAN: That's what we're trying to decide right now.
JONES: My friend, 10 credits apiece is a very reasonable price. Now you can see for yourself how much the lovely little lady appreciates the finer things.
BARMAN: One credit apiece.
CHEKOV: He won't bite, will he?
JONES: Sir, transporting harmful animals from one planet to another is against regulations, or weren't you aware of that? Besides, tribbles have no teeth.
BARMAN: All right. I'll double my offer 2 credits.
JONES: Twice nothing is still nothing.
UHURA: If you're not going to take him, I'm going to take him. I think he's cute.
BARMAN: Four credits.
JONES: Is that an offer or a joke?
BARMAN: That's my offer.
JONES: That's a joke.
BARMAN: Five?
JONES: You're an honest man. I'll tell you what I'm going to do I'm going to lessen my price to eight and a half credits.
BARMAN: You're talking yourself out of a deal, friend. Six credits. Not a credit more.
JONES: Seven and a half. Seven? All right, you robber, six credits.
BARMAN: Done. When can I have them?
JONES: Right away.
UHURA: All right, what are you selling them for?
BARMAN: Well, let me see, little lady. Six credits. Figure a reasonable mark-up for a reasonable profit, say ten percent mark-up. Ten credits.
JONES: Thief.
BARMAN: In fact, I'll sell you this one.
(the tribble is eating grain spilt from the packet Kirk gave Chekov)
CHEKOV: Hey! He's eating my grain.
BARMAN: That'll be ten credits.
JONES: That happens to be my sample, and I'll do with it as I please. And I please to give it to the lovely lady.

MUDD: Behold. I placed a single drop of this miracle substance on meself, then simply touched this young lady.
LORA: Please, darling, come back to the ship with me.
MINER: How much?
MUDD: Three hundred credits, or the
MINER: Three hundred?
MUDD: A bargain, sir. True love is worth any price.

And indirectly:

IRK: The Federation has invested a great deal of money in our training. They're about due for a small return. We have two hours with which to do it in.

Emphasis mine. Similarly:

SPOCK: I assure you, Captain, I had no intention of doing that. It was merely my own clumsiness prevented me which prevented me from moving out of the way.
KIRK: I see. Well next time, just yell. I can step out of the way as quickly as the next man.
SPOCK: I shall do so.
KIRK: Trying to get yourself killed. Do you know how much Starfleet has invested in you?
SPOCK: One hundred twenty two thousand two hundred
KIRK: Never mind. But thanks. Kaplan, take the post.

And my favorite:

SCOTT: Captain, I still don't know what we're doing!
KIRK: We're moving, the Enterprise isn't. Maybe that thing will see us and let the Enterprise go. If I only had some phasers...
SCOTT: Phasers? You've got 'em. I have one bank recharged.
KIRK: Scotty! You've just earned your pay for the week! Stand by... Fire phasers.

In Unification episode, a vessel at the edge of the Neutral Zone was able to produce a passable picture of Spock on Romulus.

The ship was never described as being at the "edge of the neutral zone." Actually, the fact that the information was classified top secret and spoken of as an intelligence mission suggests the ship was probably in high orbit of Romulus itself (being, you know, an INTELLIGENCE ship).

With multiple mentions throughout TNG, DS9 and even VOY that the Federation doesn't use money

No one ever says the FEDERATION doesn't use money. In fact, every time those conversations have come up they have been explicitly narrowed down to HUMAN behavior, and then only in the sense of retail/goods and services exchange (outside of that narrow context, those conversations would make no sense at all).

1. Subspace sensors wouldn't present you with a 'vague distant spec in a telescope'

You're right. They would provide you with CONSIDERABLY less than that.

What makes you think that Starfleet in the 23rd century with FTL subspace sensors and unimaginably faster (and far more capable) computers wouldn't be able to provide a DETAILED baseline of Latitude, Longitude and Altitude?

The fact that starships STILL EXIST.

You don't seem to be getting that remote sensor devices with the capabilities you describe would render starships superfluous even WITHOUT transwarp beaming to land an away team. It would, in fact, defeat the entire purpose of sending starships to investigate spatial phenomena in detail, and basically negate the underlying premise of Star Trek itself.

Basically: Lots of things COULD exist, but the fact that Starfleet looks and behaves the way it does indicates that they DO NOT exist.

As opposed to the ridiculousness of DS9 with Bajorans being a space faring civilization and still thinking that the so-called 'Prophets' are 'gods', even though most of them read numerous reports from other space faring civilizations such as the Federation that encountered alien entities posing as 'gods' on far too many occasions.

What's "ridiculous" about that? The Bajorans worshipped the prophets when they had no idea what they were or where they came from. Considering the prophets REALLY DID influence Bajor's history for hundreds of thousands of years, and considering Ben Sisko LITERALLY IS their emissary exactly as they prophesied he would be, why would the Bajorans suddenly worshipping them?

Yeah: reading DNA is ALOT harder to do from a distance.

In your perception.

Well, in reality. I can check you for life signs with two fingers and a stethescope; I can't check your DNA without a couple million dollars worth of lab equipment.

Now, assuming Starfleet has compressed all that expensive lab equipment into a highly sophisticated scanning beam that can do all of that complicated sorting of chemical traces and substances from a distance, what does that tell you about their capacity to check your pulse?

Which is eminently stupid because they could be enriching the Federation on the whole

Yes, "Enriching the Federation on the whole" is totally what Section 31 is all about.

 

[bryce]

In all likelihood the 2009 universe is already an alternate universe. Star Trek: Enterprise had warp speed phaser combat capability while Star Trek Into Darkness appeared to make that unique to the Vengeance. The lack of long range at warp scanning capability of the Enterprise in Star Trek 09 is also different than what the TV series technology could do.
IMO.

Something I've pointed out before, is that the changes Nero made to the timeline would have gone both forwards *and* backwards - in fact, would have to - because in any universe (or multiverse) causality goes *both* ways.

People always assume that the timeline is exactly the same up until Nero's arrival, and then diverges, but this doesn't really make sense for a lot of reasons if you think about it

(If nuKirk goes back to the same time period that Prime Kirk or Prime Picard, Prime Janeway, Prime Sisko, etc has visited, will he meet up with Prime Kirk or Prime Picard, etc? No, because that wouldn't make any sense. The two universes can't really share a past. And time travel is both the reason for why this is so - and the *mechanism* by which it happens (change the past, change the future, the future interacts with the past, so the past is changed, so...)

Sure, it's kinda the way the people behind the reboot are treating things (but even they muck about with the history somewhat) and that is fine, as all the various Star Trek alternate universes seem of be connected by some sort of...resonance...where similar people and events can and do often reoccur.)

 

[JJohnson]

In all likelihood the 2009 universe is already an alternate universe. Star Trek: Enterprise had warp speed phaser combat capability while Star Trek Into Darkness appeared to make that unique to the Vengeance. The lack of long range at warp scanning capability of the Enterprise in Star Trek 09 is also different than what the TV series technology could do.

They may have the same names and similar aesthetics, but the tech is different in the reboot universe. That's probably for the better as that gives the writers a bit more freedom to write whatever story they want to without constraints, IMO.

I consider the reboot universe already an alternate universe, given the Kelvin:

-looks like TMP
-is much larger than other TOS ships were a decade later. The TOS Constitution class launched in the 2240s, and their saucer sections are smaller and could hold about 203 people originally, then 450 after some unspecified refit in the 2250s-2260s.
-has different department colors from TOS/Enterprise
-has All-Good-Things-looking uniforms, whereas in our Trek history of that era, we'd expect something like that novelist drew up:

-the Kelvin is using the Enterprise's arrowhead design before it should have. This, however, could be explained by it being the emblem not of the Enterprise alone, but UESPA's Exploration arm.

I take the nuTrek simply to be a completely alternate timeline since before the Narada arrived. The Narada and Spock simply stepped into another alternate quantum universe, far removed from our own and probably any that Worf saw in Parallels. It has no effect on the real Trek universe to me.

 

[David cgc]

(If nuKirk goes back to the same time period that Prime Kirk or Prime Picard, Prime Janeway, Prime Sisko, etc has visited, will he meet up with Prime Kirk or Prime Picard, etc? No, because that wouldn't make any sense. The two universes can't really share a past. And time travel is both the reason for why this is so - and the *mechanism* by which it happens (change the past, change the future, the future interacts with the past, so the past is changed, so...)

Except we've seen people from mutually contradictory futures show up in Trek's present in many episodes. There were multiple timelines' worth of Captain Braxtons who visited Voyager, O'Brian came back from a future where DS9 was destroyed by Romulans, and Sisko from one where the Dominion War never happened. Worf was visited by a version of Alexander from a future when he was murdered, but Worf also met a Picard who came from a future where Worf was washed-up and died on the Enterprise-D in the All Good Things anomaly. None of those time-travel visits were shown to have been undone by later time-travel visits from different versions of the future. It's logical that the same would be true working backwards, and time travelers from many possible and contradictory futures that share a point common history up to a point would show up in Trek's past.

I don't believe the JJ-verse comics have remade any of the time-travel stories from TOS, so we haven't seen nu Kirk meet Captain Christopher or Edith Keeler, but I believe that if the JJ-prise did go back in time to before 2233, whatever they did would also be a part of the history of the Prime Universe, and that likewise, in the JJ verse, a Ben Sisko from a version of the future that didn't end up happening took Gabriel Bell's place, and Guinean met a somewhat different Picard in the 1800s than she'll find in the JJ-24th century, and so on.

I think it'd probably also be a reasonable way to do things if you wanted to do a cross-over story where the Prime-TOS crew meets the JJ-verse crew; have them both encounter similar time-travel schemes in their respective universes that have them both going to the same place in the past.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ Yeah, like Data's head! It could turn up in the Abramsverse (because it was left there LONG before the timeline divergence), assuming anyone thinks to go looking for it. Although I doubt they'd know what to DO with it.

Yes it does. Just not for civilians on Earth.

Everyone else -- even Starfleet -- uses the Federation Credit.

Why would the credit be used everywhere in the Federation but Earth? I don't see how that could be possible.

Earth is not a special case, after all; it's just another Federation member world. It has its own government, its own Federation Council representatives, its own embassies abroad, etc. So why wouldn't the credit be used there just like everywhere else?

Ah, but you say, Earth is the capital of the Federation. That may be true, but it still doesn't change the fact that Earth is just another member. There's no logical reason for the credit to be used everywhere but there. That'd be like every city and town in Massachusetts using the dollar except Boston, or everywhere in Nebraska using it except Lincoln, etc.

 

[F. King Daniel]

*obligatory reposting of Data's head meme*

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Why would the credit be used everywhere in the Federation but Earth? I don't see how that could be possible.

The most likely possibility is that Earth has a "single-payer economy." You don't actually use money for basic commodities, just type your citizens ID into the kiosk and the government handles compensation on their end. Of course, for items that aren't being sold by an Earh-registered merchant, you'll probably need credits for that, but since 99.9% of Earth citizens never NEED anything from an unregistered merchant, this isn't really an issue (and there are probably all kinds of ways to get Federation credits; a typical citizen may actually have a lifetime allowance that he never uses or can trade for extra amenities if he likes).

Point is, Earth is something of a gated community where the rest of the universe is concerned. They do things differently there. Sisko (angrily) alluded to this in "The Maquis" and it's a point that should not be understated.

Ah, but you say, Earth is the capital of the Federation...

More than that. I think EVERY Federation member has their own way of doing things, their own self-styled economy, their own government, their own justice system, their own constitution and bill of rights, their own laws, etc. There are some things that you can sanction that the Federation would frown upon, but it's not like all the Federation worlds run everything exactly the same way. Some of those planets have only been members for a hundred years or so; before that they were independent for THOUSANDS of years, and no way they're going to just abandon centuries of tradition and cultural evolution and just do whatever Earth tells them.

I'm thinking Vulcan and Andor probably have a local currency too that has to be exchanged for Federation credits if you do business with an offworld vender. But I'm reasonably sure that Earth is the only one that doesn't bother issuing currency and just runs a carefully balanced, centrally-planned economy. This is probably because capitalistic greed has been a unique problem in Earth's social history to an extent that it never was on Andor (and which the Vulcans eventually solved through logic). It may still be a problem for the Tellarites, but probably kept in check by the fact that they prefer to win arguments with words rather than possessions.

That'd be like every city and town in Massachusetts using the dollar except Boston

Planets aren't cities.

Planets aren't even countries (which DO use different currencies, btw).

Planets are PLANETS. You can WALK from one town to another in Massachusetts; getting from Vulcan to Earth, however, requires a starship capable of traveling faster than light, which a relatively small number of people in the entire human race are even qualified to operate. And with a low-end civilian warp drive, that's a five-day trip; that distance isn't "Salem to Boston," in modern therms that's "New York City to Moscow via Venzuela, Tanzania, Australia and Japan with a stop at London along the way."

If anything, we should expect MULTIPLE currencies to be in use throughout the Federation. The use of the Federation credit is probably just a way to standardize interplanetary commerce, but local (that is, planetary) trade is a separate beast.

 

[blssdwlf]

Or Schrodinger's Kirk. Did he die in ST7:Generations or live on in TNG:Relics? Which is from 09 Prime Spock's universe?

*obligatory reposting of Data's head meme*

 

[Mytran]

Data's head is still there, sure. Along with hundreds of other artefacts from other branching timelines that bear little or no connection to the Nu-timeline. Is just one of those funny side effects of casual time travel :-)

 

[drt]

Back of a napkin guess: if Enterprise is using a warp drive similar to the one the Xindi were using a hundred years earlier, and covering a distance of about 100 ly in an hour or less, that's about 870,000C. Vengeance wouldn't have to travel THAT much faster in order to overtake Enterprise just seconds before it reached the edge of the solar system.

Oddly enough, that's about the multiple of c that Enterprise is capable of in That Which Survives