"Face the Raven" Grade and Discussion Thread

[Count Zero]

Second thought: Am I a terrible person for rather enjoying the Doctor when he's in "I am The Doctor, destroyer of worlds" mode? Particularly with 12.

If so, we can be terrible persons together. I don't want him to really destroy worlds but I like it when he's threatening and dangerous like that.

So we are stuck in a room with a stasis chamber, a human who cannot be killed and an alien who when he dies can regenerate and no one can figure out how to save Clara? The least the writer could have done was give us reasons why none of those would have worked.

On the one hand, it's no worse than Amy and Rory, where there's plenty of ways the Doctor could save them, but doesn't apparently. Which is probably the one problem with this "part-time companion" thing Moffat does. When it comes time for them to leave, the only option is apparently something completely convoluted and doesn't hold up to scrutiny.

But it was explained. Once Clara had taken the chronolock she couldn't give it to anyone else. Ashildr explained that when Riggsy said he'd take it back. She wouldn't have been safe in the stasis chamber, either. It was emphasized a couple of times in the episode that you can't run from it and that it will find you wherever you are.

I also think that one of the points the episode was making was that you can't always cheat yourself out of a situation. The chronolock is a metaphor for facing certain death, a bit like the Kobayashi Maru in Trek, only it really kills you.

 

[Newspaper Taxi]

It just occurred to me that poor Rigsy might have a repeat of his recent experiences. After being wrongfully accused of murdering Anna, he now has to deal with what to do with Clara's body, given that the Doctor is no longer around.

"Uh, yes, constable, I just happened to find this girl's dead body lying in the street. Yes, I did know her from Brighton. No, I didn't kill her. Where was I yesterday? Ummm....."

Surely one of the aliens could use a ray gun to dispose of her remains. Her parents might look for her and try to get an investigation started, but from the police's perspective it's just going to look like an adult woman that's chosen to disappear. Which is depressing. I hope the Doctor can give the bad news to the parents at the end of the finale so that they don't go on forever with that unanswered question.

 

[Velocity]

Ironic that Clara was instrumental in saving the woman who ultimately was responsible for her death. Will A blame the Doctor for this too?

 

[tomalak301]

Yesterday I saw the last Hunger Games movie and last night I saw the beginning of Jessica Jones. Both have strong female characters that didn't need "Sexing Up".

This probably isn't the right forum, but I disagree about Jessica Jones. Most of the time she's layered up as a fashion choice. Her being "sexed up" is her own decision, and...

Spoiler: about the show

...the instant she finds out the truth about Luke Cage, she takes full advantage of what they can do. Probably because it's been years since she's been able to let loose like that for fear of hurting anyone. She found an equal.

Especially since it's strongly implied that Kilgrave controlled her for his own perverse needs too, so if she is to enjoy the natural function of sex, she needs to own it on her terms. Which she can do with Cage.

Plus, Jessica Jones is an "adult" show whereas Hunger Games and Doctor Who are decidedly more family-oriented fare anyway. They'd definitely have different ratings if it came to that.

I've only see the first two episodes, so it's a small sample size, but based on those two episodes I haven't really seen anything as suggestive as showing Clara's breasts close up from the side even though it had no dramatic effect on the story.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Second thought: Am I a terrible person for rather enjoying the Doctor when he's in "I am The Doctor, destroyer of worlds" mode? Particularly with 12.

If so, we can be terrible persons together. I don't want him to really destroy worlds but I like it when he's threatening and dangerous like that.

I like it becuase its a nice way to shut up those idiots that keep going on about how he wouldn't dare obliterate them becuase they know he's a nice guy.

 

[Mr. Adventure]

I agree with some people that Clara's death lacked any strong emotion

And my juvenile mind couldn't shake this out of my head

I don't know if it was just that sweater she was wearing or what but it was definitely noticeable to my male eyes.

 

[FlapJoy]

Just putting this out there:
I must say there does seem to be a bigger arc at play here. Especially where Clara is concerned, her death was very strange. There's a stasis device that was keeping the Janus alive, but why bother with it, it didn't fool the Doctor and was a trap. But if they really wanted to fake the Janus's death just to lead the the Doctor into a trap there are plenty of other ways to fake her death to frame Rigsy and lead Clara and the Doctor to the alien alley. It's a needless plot device, so will it serve another purpose later? Like suspending the body of Clara that's been left in the street by the Doctor?
Plus, have you noticed how many times Clara has been stuffed into a box in series 9? 1) stuffed into a Dalek 2) The Zygon pod so she could be replaced by a Zygon 3) the Morpheus sleep chamber; attached to wires in her brain. Plus a bonus box, an alien undertaker dragging around a stasis "coffin", Clara wasn't stuffed in it, but it's yet another body box...
I don't think we saw Clara permanently die, and the whole series had been full of odd remarks by the Doctor, much confusion, as if something wasn't right and hasn't been for a while. Curious.
Speaking of the Dalek, wasn't she hooked into that Dalek on Skaro when the Doctor infused the Daleks with regeneration energy? Might she have caught a dose?
[EDIT]
Is there a series long puzzle at play here that's yet to be sorted?

There's been a lot of serious exploration of what death is, souls and ghosts, in the Capaldi era. Balanced with a new character who can't die thanks to the Doctor's influence, along with the companion who's essentially died many times after entering the Doctors 12 lives and timelines... (which makes me wonder if Ashildr could survive the Raven if she would ever be sentenced to face it)... Clara's "death" may not be all that it seems. I hope all will be revealed in the Christmas special.

 

[Nightowl1701]

Ironic that Clara was instrumental in saving the woman who ultimately was responsible for her death. Will A blame the Doctor for this too?

She may, in an indirect manner. But she'll share the blame too. And ultimately, it's Clara who's the most responsible. And if Me's smart, she'll write in her diary to her future self "If you don't want to spend the rest of your endless life in agonizing pain, never bring the subject of Clara up with the Doctor if you see him. In fact, follow his advice and try your best NOT to see him at all if possible."

 

[Nightowl1701]

Speaking of the Dalek, wasn't she hooked into that Dalek on Skaro when the Doctor infused the Daleks with regeneration energy? Might she have caught a dose?

That's... actually a good point. But we never saw any sign of that energy around her.

Also: How is Missy alive? She even says to Clara she has no idea how she's alive after their last encounter, but so what!?! It was never explained, could there be a connection? It was Missy that essentially lead Clara to the Doctor's path in the first place as the "shop girl".

It was explained. Missy had her wrist teleporter tuned to soak up the energy from any incoming weapon and channel it to teleport her away instead. (Like a flux capacitor and a bolt of lightning.)

And what of the Doctor's confession disk? Handed over and put away on a shelf by Ashildr with little weight to the concept of what it represents, it must come back into play at some point. Is there a series long puzzle at play here that's yet to be sorted?

She's not putting it on a shelf, she's handing it over to the Doctor's abductors. That dial's the linchpin of the whole 'Hybrid' arc.

 

[sttngfan1701d]

And my juvenile mind couldn't shake this out of my head

Truly, that's not your fault. I rewatched the death scene this morning, and I went, "Wait... that was a deliberate directing choice. It's like they wanted to emphasize Jenna's chest there."

I don't really know what they were thinking there.

Yesterday I saw the last Hunger Games movie and last night I saw the beginning of Jessica Jones. Both have strong female characters that didn't need "Sexing Up". I see that photo of Clara and read you're point and that actually makes me angry.

Well, to be fair, aside from this instance and the little shot in "The Snowmen", they have pretty much dressed Jenna in such a way to take the emphasis off her ample chest throughout her entire tenure. She's been given tasteful, professional, or cute outfits 99% of the time and they haven't been overtly suggestive in any way. They could've dressed her differently had they wanted to suggest otherwise.

I personally don't see that shot as provocative or "sexing it up." If she does a pose like that (some call it a "Christ pose"), and arches her back to show the effect of the Raven tearing up her insides, what's she supposed to do if she has large breasts? It's not up to her what some viewers have in their heads.

 

[tomalak301]

Truly, that's not your fault. I rewatched the death scene this morning, and I went, "Wait... that was a deliberate directing choice. It's like they wanted to emphasize Jenna's chest there."

I don't really know what they were thinking there.

Yesterday I saw the last Hunger Games movie and last night I saw the beginning of Jessica Jones. Both have strong female characters that didn't need "Sexing Up". I see that photo of Clara and read you're point and that actually makes me angry.

Well, to be fair, aside from this instance and the little shot in "The Snowmen", they have pretty much dressed Jenna in such a way to take the emphasis off her ample chest throughout her entire tenure. She's been given tasteful, professional, or cute outfits 99% of the time and they haven't been overtly suggestive in any way. They could've dressed her differently had they wanted to suggest otherwise.

I personally don't see that shot as provocative or "sexing it up." If she does a pose like that (some call it a "Christ pose"), and arches her back to show the effect of the Raven tearing up her insides, what's she supposed to do if she has large breasts? It's not up to her what some viewers have in their heads.

I guess it was just the way it was filmed. It's like saying she's going to die soon, lets sex it up one more time instead of going with the sensitivity approach. In fact, like someone mentioned with the Editing, I do think that whole sequence could have been a lot more dignified.

 

[FlapJoy]

Speaking of the Dalek, wasn't she hooked into that Dalek on Skaro when the Doctor infused the Daleks with regeneration energy? Might she have caught a dose?

That's... actually a good point. But we never saw any sign of that energy around her.

Also: How is Missy alive? She even says to Clara she has no idea how she's alive after their last encounter, but so what!?! It was never explained, could there be a connection? It was Missy that essentially lead Clara to the Doctor's path in the first place as the "shop girl".

It was explained. Missy had her wrist teleporter tuned to soak up the energy from any incoming weapon and channel it to teleport her away instead. (Like a flux capacitor and a bolt of lightning.)

And what of the Doctor's confession disk? Handed over and put away on a shelf by Ashildr with little weight to the concept of what it represents, it must come back into play at some point. Is there a series long puzzle at play here that's yet to be sorted?

She's not putting it on a shelf, she's handing it over to the Doctor's abductors. That dial's the linchpin of the whole 'Hybrid' arc.

Ah, thanks for those clarifications. I didn't get to catch much of the last few minutes of the most recent episode... Totally missed that Missy thing.

I still feel a larger story about Clara's "death" is threading itself together, woven thru the entire 9th series.

 

[Marsden]

It just occurred to me that poor Rigsy might have a repeat of his recent experiences. After being wrongfully accused of murdering Anna, he now has to deal with what to do with Clara's body, given that the Doctor is no longer around.

"Uh, yes, constable, I just happened to find this girl's dead body lying in the street. Yes, I did know her from Brighton. No, I didn't kill her. Where was I yesterday? Ummm....."

A good question...

And with no sign of poison or foul play, the police will eventually conclude an aneurysm killed her and Rigsy is simply too traumatized to be a reliable witness. UNIT, once they hear, will cover any other tracks and take the now-painted TARDIS into storage for the Doctor to eventually - hopefully - reclaim. Clara's body will be returned to her family for burial, and Coal Hill School will have grief counselors on hand for staff and students.

And a good answer. Nice points by all.

And my juvenile mind couldn't shake this out of my head...

I didn't want to mention it, but she seem much more "perky" throughout the episode to me. Push up bra? She never seems so at attention before. Wardrobe is a massive effect on appearance, it would seem more a costuming choice than a directorial choice, but why then?

I wonder if it had to do with the hanging upside down from the doorway of the Tardis. She would have needed some proper support then, but I think they could certainly of made a subtle change before the final scene.

Just putting this out there:.

Good post. I do think something isn't completely as it seems. There could be some really long term things happening here.

 

[Squiggy]

We should be sad at this moment, perhaps, if written properly, we might even feel the need to cry, or at least mopey as though we're losing a friend. I felt none of this during Clara's death scene and actually screamed "get on with it!" at my TV.

My wife, who cried at the end of Endgame and These Are the Voyages... did not cry during this.

 

[sttngfan1701d]

We should be sad at this moment, perhaps, if written properly, we might even feel the need to cry, or at least mopey as though we're losing a friend. I felt none of this during Clara's death scene and actually screamed "get on with it!" at my TV.

My wife, who cried at the end of Endgame and These Are the Voyages... did not cry during this.

I think it has more to do with how attached you are to a character. I kept my composure (despite stinging eyes) until the end with Rigsy painting the TARDIS. But later, watching the clips again on Youtube, I did get more upset than I was initially.

Now that I've had a day to think about it, they're going to have to deal more with this than they did last night. It's going to carry over into the final 2 episodes. And Clara's death will have more meaning. Who knows? When the Doctor gets his TARDIS back and sees the mural, he might mourn in his own way. It'll continue to unspool. It has to.

 

[Mad Jack Wolfe]

My wife, who cried at the end of Endgame and These Are the Voyages... did not cry during this.

And my wife, who only got sniffly during 10's regeneration, was really putting on a waterworks display. But she said only half of it was for Clara. The other was for what she fears Clara's death will do to the Doctor.

 

[The Wormhole]

Has anyone noticed that all of Moffat's companions have been killed off?

River- Brain fried in Forest of the Dead
Amy and Rory - Death by weeping angel in Angels Take Manhattan
Clara Oswald - Death by Raven

Except with Moffat people are only sort of dead, and there's always the chance they can return. Indeed, River became a recurring character after she was killed, and is even returning to the show in the Christmas special. Since Amy and Rory life for another fifty or so years after they got separated there's always a chance they could return. And Clara splinters exist throughout time and space and are always available to run into.

Speaking of the Dalek, wasn't she hooked into that Dalek on Skaro when the Doctor infused the Daleks with regeneration energy? Might she have caught a dose?

No. It was only the Dalek squids which received the regeneration energy, or the remains of them in the sewer. In fact, in the scene, we can clearly see the Dalek Clara is in is the only one not glowing with regeneration energy, so no, Clara never got a dose of regeneration energy.

Also: How is Missy alive? She even says to Clara she has no idea how she's alive after their last encounter, but so what!?! It was never explained, could there be a connection?

Except we did get an explanation, Missy channeled the energy from Cyber-Brigadier's laser shot into her vortex manipulator, thereby teleporting herself away. This is explained in the opening scene of The Witch's Familiar in which it's revealed she did the same trick when the Daleks opened fire on her and Clara.

 

[SeamusShameless]

It's funny how the biggest interest amongst posters concerning Clara's death is how her tits looked.

 

[The Wormhole]

It's funny how the biggest interest amongst posters concerning Clara's death is how her tits looked.

Reminds me of the joke Peter Davison made about being upstaged in his regeneration scene by Peri's tits.

Seriously, Davison actually said that!

 

[Ar-Pharazon]

Speaking of the Dalek, wasn't she hooked into that Dalek on Skaro when the Doctor infused the Daleks with regeneration energy? Might she have caught a dose?

That's... actually a good point. But we never saw any sign of that energy around her.

She was the only Dalek working for that period, whereas all the actual Daleks were offline. Missy probably took out all the important bits.