Can you transport anti-matter?

[blssdwlf]

Some food for thought about antimatter in the nacelles...

Check out TNG's "Timescape" where they are in a runabout with antimatter fuel (pods) in each nacelle and the starboard engine cuts out on them because the starboard nacelle antimatter pod was drained.

What is interesting in this episode is that there does not appear to be a central matter-antimatter reactor powering the warp engines (nacelles) but instead each nacelle is it's own engine with it's own matter-antimatter fuel.

It sounds like this runabout power setup is closer to the TOS setup (minus the central reactor regenerating fuel)

(Although in my version of the TOS setup, if the central reactor and engineering hull regenerated antimatter fuel and sent it up to the nacelles it would be a little simpler than the nacelles sending fuel down into the engineering hull.)

 

[TIN_MAN]

Here's a thought, if there are antimatter pods in the secondary hull of the TOS-E maybe they can be sent up the pylons (like a turbo lift) where they get injected with antimatter from the generators/reserves, and then return to the secondary hull where they are needed for the central reactor, thus no complicated piping and what not?

In any case, since the Bussard collectors gather the matter fuel it does make some sense to accumulate it in the nacelles, so that part of the "matter-antimatter nacelle" equation is satisfied.

As for the antimatter, depending on the complexity and efficiency of the process, it could make sense to convert some of the accumulated space matter into antimatter while still in the nacelles -since your matter supply is already there anyway- and accumulate a stockpile of this dangerous stuff as far away from the rest of the ship and crew as possible?

 

[Mytran]

Yikes, I would not want the job to be poor soul who's job it was to ferry the antimatter up and down the pylons!

I suppose the procedure could be an automated one, but then you'd either have to have the main secondary hull antimatter pods right at the base of the pylons, or else a further series of transit tubes to the actual pod location. At this point you have effectively got a set of "top up tubes" in all but name, although I do like the idea of the nacelles being a refuelling facility. Perhaps this could work with the scenario alluded to in OOOPIS? This way the "antimatter nacelle" is the one which refuels the antimatter supply in the secondary hull, and the "matter nacelle" is - well, you get the picture.

Kirk's order in TSC can thus be interpreted to mean:

1. The antimatter shielding is breaking down, meaning it will soon fact with the casing
2. The nacelle refueling system is ordered to be disengaged, since it will only make things worse!
3. If nothing else works, jettison! Whether this means to jettison the nacelles (which would only solve party of the problem anyway), jettison the antimatter pods (steering us back into the "jargon" territory upthreadupthread) or (my favourite) jettison the entire secondary hull and leave in the saucer!!!

 

[USS Triumphant]

So... I picked up a really big glass bottle, a bunch of powerful electromagnets, and an arduino board that I've programmed to adjust the magnets as needed. I think I'm ready now. Where's the pickup, and where do you want it delivered to?

 

[Mytran]

USS Triumphant, please can you deliver it to the one and only definitively correction of the TOS Engineering setup! It would save us quote some time if we knew what that was

 

[USS Triumphant]

USS Triumphant, please can you deliver it to the one and only definitively correction of the TOS Engineering setup! It would save us quote some time if we knew what that was

Very good. Setting course for Culver City in mid-December of 1964. I'm going to need to use a tiny bit of the anti-matter to power my flux capacitor - hope that's okay.

 

[Mytran]

It's going to be made out of wood, isn't it

 

[TIN_MAN]

Some food for thought about antimatter in the nacelles...

Check out TNG's "Timescape" where they are in a runabout with antimatter fuel (pods) in each nacelle and the starboard engine cuts out on them because the starboard nacelle antimatter pod was drained.

Interesting, does the dialog distinguish between “antimatter pod” and “nacelle”?

In any case, this makes it seem more likely that the shuttlecraft in TOS’s “Metamorphosis” -where the lack of antimatter residue is a clue that the shuttle did not explode- had said antimatter stored in its nacelles/pods.

 

[Mytran]

Here's the dialogue from the episode:

DATA: We have an engine failure warning in the
PICARD: Report!
LAFORGE: The starboard nacelle just cut out.
DATA: Attitude control has been restored.
PICARD: Full stop. What happened?
LAFORGE: The starboard antimatter pod is completely drained. The fuel reserves are empty.
PICARD: Is there a fuel containment leak?
LAFORGE: No, sir. The containment field is intact. all engine systems are operational. The fuel is just gone.
DATA: Geordi, I believe I have an explanation. According to the plasma conversion sensor, the starboard engine has been in continuous operation for forty seven days.

A TOS style self contained nacelle is certainly the most obvious solution.

If there is somehow a TNG style central reactor setup (as per the "official" cutaways) then Runabouts apparently have segregated port/starboard antimatter tanks - not sure how that would work, exactly.

 

[blssdwlf]

Thanks for supplying the dialogue Mytran.

Yeah, this episode lays out segregated antimatter pods (port/starboard) and that they operate independently of each other since the runabout didn't distribute the port antimatter fuel automatically over to the starboard engine when it ran out of fuel. Also it seems like the port and starboard engines don't create energy because they should have rapidly accumulated 47 days worth of excess energy from the starboard nacelle. But it didn't seem like there was a central antimatter pod because they were concerned about protecting the port engine.

LAFORGE: Make sure it doesn't come in contact with our other engine.

 

[Mytran]

Strange how this bit of dialogue made it into a late TNG episode! Of course, it may be that even in the 24th century, shuttles (and runabouts) continue to use a variation of the (presumably) more rugged "aviation model" approach. It would also allow them to actually fit the M/AM reactors in somewhere, since most shuttles are pretty much just empty boxes!

Finally, although the antimatter is kept in the nacelles, it seems that both the Warp and Impulse systems tap into a common supply of deuterium (since it does not run out as well). This is likely to be held centrally, IMO

EDIT: What I am now wondering is how much that design could be ported into the TOS setup. On the E-D, the vast majority of deuterium is in the secondary hull and it supplies not on the M/AM reactor but the Impulse Engines too (with presumably some extra tanks in the saucer for when it is separated).

Why then, could not the main matter tanks on the TOS-E be located in the secondary hull as well? Heck, even the "rampscoops" could be located at the forward end behind the (gas permeable) dish, explaining the odd preponderance of visible tech there. After all, "rampscoop" is a concept definitely added after the fact, and never definitivly associated with the nacelles until TNG, several technological generations later.

(I'm sure I remember reading an article about this somewhere which also advocated the collection of matter in the secondary hull and antimatter in the nacelles. I thought it was Trekplace but I can't be sure and I can't find it!)

So, we have:

• Large matter slush tanks in the secondary hull; harmless in their own right but excellent as a source of fuel for the various ship systems
• Tighly compressed and controlled amounts of antimatter in the nacelles
• Reactors in the nacelles, which the lights on the forward endcaps may represent. The resultant energy release is thus delivered directly into the Warp Coils with no dangerous plasma conduits required.
• Possible antimatter generators in the forward nacelles, which the lights on the forward endcaps may represent (hey, it could be both!)
• Dilithium crystals in the secondary hull, whose job it is to convert a portion of the energy from the M/AM reactors into a form usable by ship's systems (gravity, deflectors, life support etc).

How does that sit with people?

 

[blssdwlf]

Mytran, that sounds good but I think it is missing the central or main reactor component.

On further thought:

There are oddly instances where the Enterprise needed to refuel her impulse engines ("Doomsday Machine", "Mudd's Women") but she appeared to lack that ability and it wasn't due to damage.

In the case of "The Naked Time" the emergency/auxiliary impulse engines are not available before the warp engines are when all are shut down cold.

In "The Apple" they are channeling all available power to impulse engines.

Based on the above events, what if the impulse engines don't directly use matter fuel? What if impulse engines are powered by energy delivered from impulse power system that normally is charged up by the warp engines (dilithium power conversion) or like in TMP, directly powered by the m/am dilithium system. "Impulse power" then is just power stored in giant batteries and only comes into play as additional power or emergency power is requested. How this dependency plays out I haven't fully thought out yet.

So, we have:

• Large matter slush tanks in the secondary hull; harmless in their own right but excellent as a source of fuel for the various ship systems
• Tighly compressed and controlled amounts of antimatter in the nacelles
• Reactors in the nacelles, which the lights on the forward endcaps may represent. The resultant energy release is thus delivered directly into the Warp Coils with no dangerous plasma conduits required.
• Possible antimatter generators in the forward nacelles, which the lights on the forward endcaps may represent (hey, it could be both!)
• Dilithium crystals in the secondary hull, whose job it is to convert a portion of the energy from the M/AM reactors into a form usable by ship's systems (gravity, deflectors, life support etc).

How does that sit with people?

 

[TIN_MAN]

Here's the dialogue from the episode:

DATA: We have an engine failure warning in the
PICARD: Report!
LAFORGE: The starboard nacelle just cut out.
DATA: Attitude control has been restored.
PICARD: Full stop. What happened?
LAFORGE: The starboard antimatter pod is completely drained. The fuel reserves are empty.
PICARD: Is there a fuel containment leak?
LAFORGE: No, sir. The containment field is intact. all engine systems are operational. The fuel is just gone.
DATA: Geordi, I believe I have an explanation. According to the plasma conversion sensor, the starboard engine has been in continuous operation for forty seven days.

A TOS style self contained nacelle is certainly the most obvious solution.

If there is somehow a TNG style central reactor setup (as per the "official" cutaways) then Runabouts apparently have segregated port/starboard antimatter tanks - not sure how that would work, exactly.

So, even here in a TNG episode, we have ambiguous dialog that could indicate that that "starboard nacelle" and "starboard antimatter pod" are two terms for the same thing, at least in this case.

Also note that an association with the fuel reserves is made as well, all this sounds like it came right out of a TOS or TAS episode.

 

[Mytran]

So, even here in a TNG episode, we have ambiguous dialog that could indicate that that "starboard nacelle" and "starboard antimatter pod" are two terms for the same thing, at least in this case.

To me it's really not that strange, at least in TOS: If my engineering proposal is accurate, the "antimatter nacelles" really are the antimatter pods, since the volatile stuff is not stored anywhere else. So for the crew to use the terms interchangeably is perfectly understandable, and even segues into the TNG terminology (where on starships at least, the pods and nacelles are separate) without too much of a stretch.

Mytran, that sounds good but I think it is missing the central or main reactor component.

As I hopefully demonstrated upthread, there's really no need for a central reactor

There are oddly instances where the Enterprise needed to refuel her impulse engines ("Doomsday Machine", "Mudd's Women") but she appeared to lack that ability and it wasn't due to damage.

Enterprise's seemingly limited range on Impulse in DM has always been an oddity. But I wonder if it's not somehow connected to the Warp drive. After all, the big disadvantage suffered by the Ent in that episode was that the antimatter had been "deactivated". What if that affected the Impulse engines too, because what if the Impulse reactors have their own antimatter supply that is used to "spice up" the energy output? Coupled with a (mass reducing) low level subspace field generated by the nacelles, and there you have a drive system able to propel a ship at speeds of 25% of LS with relatively little fuel consumption. Knock out the antimatter and it becomes a traditional newtonian rocket engine, which at full pelt will exhaust it's fuel in a matter of hours (especially if called upon to provide shields and phasers). The same kind of problem may explain the situation in TNT, except that time of course it was a drunken Riley causing the problems (I'm also not discounting the possibility that he may have switched off the Impulse reactors as well, which may have required an even longer restart procedure. It might also be why the refit-E seeks escape from the Reliant at such appallingly low speeds near the end of TWOK - no subspace field, since the mains are offline, so they are flying on solely newtonian momentum.

Channeling "all available power" to the Impulse Engines is still possible in this scenario; as I said, I envision the dilithium crystals being a power converter (instead of a M/AM reaction mediator) to energy from that can be easily diverted to where it is needed, be that shields, weapons or impulse drive systems.

Based on the above events, what if the impulse engines don't directly use matter fuel? What if impulse engines are powered by energy delivered from impulse power system that normally is charged up by the warp engines (dilithium power conversion) or like in TMP, directly powered by the m/am dilithium system. "Impulse power" then is just power stored in giant batteries and only comes into play as additional power or emergency power is requested. How this dependency plays out I haven't fully thought out yet.

I do like this original line of thought! It also matches what we see in TMP, but how well would this carry on into the TNG era though? The only reason I ask is that Geordi tells Scotty that Impulse Engine technology hasn't changed much in the last 200 years.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

The performance demands on shuttles aren't as stringent as for starships. So, it could make sense to me for the TNG era shuttles to use an engine design that has more in common with Constitution-class engine design than with Galaxy-class engine design, and so which is not as sophisticated as the top-of-the-line designs used for starships. The rationale might simply be that the less sophisticated design is easier to maintain, and still delivers the type of performance expected from the shuttle.

 

[blssdwlf]

..What if that affected the Impulse engines too, because what if the Impulse reactors have their own antimatter supply that is used to "spice up" the energy output? Coupled with a (mass reducing) low level subspace field generated by the nacelles, and there you have a drive system able to propel a ship at speeds of 25% of LS with relatively little fuel consumption. Knock out the antimatter and it becomes a traditional newtonian rocket engine, which at full pelt will exhaust it's fuel in a matter of hours (especially if called upon to provide shields and phasers). The same kind of problem may explain the situation in TNT, except that time of course it was a drunken Riley causing the problems (I'm also not discounting the possibility that he may have switched off the Impulse reactors as well, which may have required an even longer restart procedure. It might also be why the refit-E seeks escape from the Reliant at such appallingly low speeds near the end of TWOK - no subspace field, since the mains are offline, so they are flying on solely newtonian momentum.

I like to think that the impulse engines themselves have the mini warp system build in rather than using the nacelle drivers. Of course this will seem a bit left field, but the times that the warp drive was burned out ("Where No Man...", "The Paradise Syndrome") the impulse engines could power them quite a distance and length of time but it does seem that they were one way trips if you were going for speed ("Where No Man...") and very slow trips if you wanted to still be able to break orbit ("The Paradise Syndrome").

At the end of TWOK, I think the reason they were so slow backing away from the Reliant was because the ship was operating on battery power from the point Scotty took the mains offline. According to the dialogue, Spock never confirms that they restored auxiliary power in the two hours they were down on regula and only restored "partial main power".

I do like this original line of thought! It also matches what we see in TMP, but how well would this carry on into the TNG era though? The only reason I ask is that Geordi tells Scotty that Impulse Engine technology hasn't changed much in the last 200 years.

Ahh, but what if *that* TNG timeline is not the same as the TOS one? In "Relics" the details of Scotty's events in "The Naked Time" are different than what happened in the TOS version. That "last 200 years" could very well be valid in that timeline.

 

[TIN_MAN]

I agree, in TOS the "antimatter/warp drive pods" are the nacelles, as evidenced by much onscreen dialog, and confirmed by behind-the-scenes production material.

This seeming discrepancy with TNG tech, where “antimatter pods” are now small fuel tanks, can be easily explained "in universe" by technological progress resulting in a different design being used for top-of-the-line starships, as opposed to shuttles which still use the older design.

And it just goes to show that things are not as contradictory as some might think, and we need not reinterpret TOS tech to shoehorn it into TNG tech, but rather take both on equally valid terms.

 

[Mytran]

Ahh, but what if *that* TNG timeline is not the same as the TOS one?

Well that's certainly one approach and truth be told TOS would sit much more comfortably in it's own pocket timeline. But the later (and earlier) iterations of the franchise do exist, and we can somehow concoct a "grand unified theory" that allows all series to co-exist within the same universe, I'll happily take it.

And it just goes to show that things are not as contradictory as some might think, and we need not reinterpret TOS tech to shoehorn it into TNG tech, but rather take both on equally valid terms.

Exactly In any case, Timescape at least corroborates the TOS Engineering setup, so why discard it for the sake of Scotty's failing memory?

I like to think that the impulse engines themselves have the mini warp system build in rather than using the nacelle drivers.

Yeah I went a but overboard with the all the "newtonian" references - the Impulse system clearly is a field based system as opposed to a conventional rocket thrust one, otherwise the ship would never be able to maneuver! Having said that, I do believe that the nacelles are a better location for the mass-reducing field than tucked away somewhere in the impulse engines, since:

1. The nacelles are very big, and the field needs to encompass the entire ship (which the warp drive does anyway).
2. In The Paradise Syndrome the warp drive is properly wrecked and the Enterprise's speed is reduced to that of a common asteroid, indicating that the Impulse Engines alone are unable to accelerate faster when unaided by the nacelles.However, nothing in dialogue precludes them from harvesting antimatter from the main engines (thus increasing the fuel efficiency and therefore range), something not possible in Doomsday Machine
3. In Elaan of Troyius Scotty says that ordinarily (even when inside a solar system, presumably) they would use the Warp Drive exclusively - suggesting that Impulse alone (except when supplemented by the mass reducing field of the nacelles) is not up to snuff.
4. The situation in WNMHGB is that the space-warp ability is gone - enough functionality may be left for mass-reduction field generation. Possibly (like TPS above) it's a risky one-way trip due to the circumstances, although given the distance covered of "a few light days" an appreciable percentage of LS would be a necessity

The TNG tech manual does mention the mass reduction driver in the Impulse system as a recent innovation - on the face of it an absurd notion, unless previously the job was being done by another part of the ship. And, since it is only with the Galaxy (and possibly Ambassador) classes that saucer separation and reconnection has become routine, it would follow that a substitute for the mass-reduction effect of the nacelles would need to be implemented.

In the TOS era, it has become increasingly apparent to me (IMO) that the ships were designed as a single unit - separation of the components may be possible, but they would function in a drastically reduced fashion, a far cry from the saucer separation of the Enterprise-D.

 

[blssdwlf]

Exactly In any case, Timescape at least corroborates the TOS Engineering setup, so why discard it for the sake of Scotty's failing memory?

I just like keeping them as separate timelines as it is easier on ordering things together.

As for configurations, we also have TOS' "The Galileo Seven" where their shuttle has a "main reactor" which suggests a 3 reactor setup (main + one reactor per engine)...

More thoughts on those impulse engines. I think since they "ordinarily" "exclusively" run on warp drive that the impulse drive is an emergency or very secondary option. In "Elaan of Troyius" they describe have impulse power at "97%" and after hard maneuvering and shield usage they were down to "31%" in short order.

So, if the impulse drive only has limited stored energy then it tallies with how we've seen them in use. They can either make a one-way high speed run to a planet in an emergency (or high speed/energy fight) or a low speed run conserving energy to a planet to pick someone up and then be able to still break orbit to go to another planet. It doesn't to me necessarily correlate with the damage status of the nacelles.

We see the high speed/high energy usage in "Where No Man Has Gone Before", "Elaan of Troyius", "The Doomsday Machine" and the low speed/low energy usage in "The Paradise Syndrome".

 

[Mytran]

As for configurations, we also have TOS' "The Galileo Seven" where their shuttle has a "main reactor" which suggests a 3 reactor setup (main + one reactor per engine)...

So then; antimatter storage pods on the exterior, and a main fusion reactor which taps into a central deuterium tank in order to provide fuel for the impulse engines. Anti-gravity and mass reduction effects are ordinarily provided by the mini-nacelles, although they can also propel the ship at moderate FTL speeds when called on to do so - under these circumstances the antimatter stores are used up at a much faster rate of course, and unlike starships there are no power regeneration facilities on board - once your fuel is gone, it's gone! (Galileo 7 and The Menagerie) Whether the nacelles are providing energy fields to assist the Impulse Engines or going full FTL speeds, they utilise pre-energised deuterium diverted to them from the main reactor, for a more efficient M/AM reaction. What I believe Scotty did in Galileo 7 was to use the phaser energy as a substitute for this pre-energised matter - a paltry amount no doubt, but enough to generate a weak anti-grav field to get them off the planet and into orbit (although apparently not to escape velocity). When Spock dumped their fuel to send up a distress flare, he may have included the residual antimatter too - or would that come too close to the abandoned theory of easily jettisonable antimatter pods?

More thoughts on those impulse engines. I think since they "ordinarily" "exclusively" run on warp drive that the impulse drive is an emergency or very secondary option.

I tend to agree with you and your examples are good ones. After all, Kirk "warps out of orbit" more times than I care to remember, so clearly it is their preferred drive!
If not Impulse batteries per se, then I can definitely accept some sort of "header tank" for the Impulse Drive (that possibly contains that pre-energised deuterium I mentioned, earlier ). Under normal conditions, replacement fuel is generated and the header tank kept topped up (drawing from the main deuterium tank in the Engineering Hull). However, too much shield action or high speeds (especially without an a warp drive) will drain it empty. In time the Impulse fuel can be replaced but by then it will too late and the Klingons/Planet Killer will have got ya!

So, if the impulse drive only has limited stored energy then it tallies with how we've seen them in use. They can either make a one-way high speed run to a planet in an emergency (or high speed/energy fight) or a low speed run conserving energy to a planet to pick someone up and then be able to still break orbit to go to another planet. It doesn't to me necessarily correlate with the damage status of the nacelles.

We see the high speed/high energy usage in "Where No Man Has Gone Before", "Elaan of Troyius", "The Doomsday Machine" and the low speed/low energy usage in "The Paradise Syndrome".

Again agree, except that:

• In WNMHGB it is just the space-warp ability which is damaged, although later it seems that mainly the control systems are what is burned out. IOW, the nacelles M/AM reactors are still operable, just not for FTL speeds. Also, since the Enterprise travels "a few light days" on Impulse, I would argue that the nacelles are still capable of assisting this secondary drive, otherwise the trip would take months or more!
• In Elaan of Troyius the M/AM reactor are explicitly unavailable due to the sabotage, and so presumably when any mass reducing field from the nacelles. In addtion, Kirk has to remind Sulu that the Impulse maneuvers will be "sluggish" as a result of this damage - clearly an unusual situation, then.
• In Doomsday Machine the nacelles are undamaged, but the antimatter has been deactivated: No M/AM reactions, no mass reduction field. With shields and phasers as additional drain, the Impulse fuel tank is emptied in less than a day