At what point does the Federation decide to stop to building vessels ?

[Tarek71]

Re: At what point does the Federation decide to stop to building vesse

They might eventually reach a Time Lord level of ships that can travel anywhere in time and space almost instantaneously, or in a very short time. The Borg can traverse the Galaxy within minutes, and the Federation has timeships in the 29th-31st centuries, including ones that are bigger on the inside.

It may even be from the Borg tech that they build their own transwarp conduits, temporal transmitters and ships, etc.

Then at a later.point this increasing knowledge of how to manipulate time, space, matter , etc leads to them being able to accomplish these feats without a ship. Their own bodies transformed to such extent that they somehow can will themselves to travel to, or remotely view, anywhere in time and space. So, I suppose they might become like the Organians, the Prophets, the Q at some unknown future point. What you have to evolve into to pull that off, I have no idea. We haven't even figured out the Warp speed thing yet.

 

[dswynne1]

Re: At what point does the Federation decide to stop to building vesse

Transwarp Beaming = Trek's Vanishing Cabinet = The birth of the laziest writing, ever = Just one of the many problems I have with nuTrek.

One, Scotty invented transwarp beaming in the Prime Timeline,

Please check my post. I don't care which universe it was invented in. The technology was introduced in ST09, hence why it was one of my problems with nuTrek.

two, what is the difference between transwarp beaming and transwarp drive...

As it has been employed so far, transwarp drive requires a massive network of conduits and hubs to work (Borg). All other attempts have led to failure, and practical application remains outside of UFP reach (where it should remain).
Transwarp beaming, as used in nuTrek, introduces the possibility of so many loopholes that it renders the act of story-telling virtually pointless. Yes, it's that dumb.

Please re-read MY post as to why transwarp beaming is a non-issue. As complicated as normal beaming is, it is even more so with transwarp beaming. Not dumb, but this hate on it is silly.

 

[Jeffe525]

Re: At what point does the Federation decide to stop to building vesse

One, Scotty invented transwarp beaming in the Prime Timeline,

Please check my post. I don't care which universe it was invented in. The technology was introduced in ST09, hence why it was one of my problems with nuTrek.

two, what is the difference between transwarp beaming and transwarp drive...

As it has been employed so far, transwarp drive requires a massive network of conduits and hubs to work (Borg). All other attempts have led to failure, and practical application remains outside of UFP reach (where it should remain).
Transwarp beaming, as used in nuTrek, introduces the possibility of so many loopholes that it renders the act of story-telling virtually pointless. Yes, it's that dumb.

Please re-read MY post as to why transwarp beaming is a non-issue. As complicated as normal beaming is, it is even more so with transwarp beaming. Not dumb, but this hate on it is silly.

OK, I re-read it. The introduction of transwarp beaming makes the starship obsolete, just as much as the transporter made the shuttlecraft obsolete. You say the core to Trek is the "wagon train to the stars," but transwarp beaming removes the wagon... and the train. You're left with a Stargate show, without the gate. Essentially you remove all limits on the technology and any sense of drama related to getting from one place to another in time to save the day, or you're left with the annoying task of explaining why the transwarp beaming won't work every f-ing time. Thanks J.J.

 

[BillJ]

Re: At what point does the Federation decide to stop to building vesse

The introduction of transwarp beaming makes the starship obsolete, just as much as the transporter made the shuttlecraft obsolete.

This is non-sense. We still saw shuttlecraft used in all the 24th century shows, quite frequently. Airplanes didn't replace cars or trains or boats, they supplemented them.

Transwarp beaming didn't seem to break the universe when used in "Bloodlines", nor did the transporter become a fountain of youth after it was able to restore Pulaski in "Unnatural Selection".

 

[Tarek71]

Re: At what point does the Federation decide to stop to building vesse

Well, it's more than that. The TARDIS has a vastly greater range than transwarp beaming and yet there is still a huge potential for storytelling. I don't see how the transporter ruins anything. The advance of technology will pose new threats. Transwarp conduits, transwarp beaming, time travel, etc.

I mean if the Borg can get to Earth as fast as Endgame makes it seem, why not send 50 cubes to pop into the Sol System and wipe out Earth's defenses in a few minutes? Still not sure what's stopped that from happening in ST: FC.

With transwarp beaming, sure you can beam a trilithium warhead to the enemy star, and wipe it out their whole star system. That's a big problem.

You still need the ship, and heavy weapons, shields, sensors, labs, sick bay, etc. You can't just beam people onto planets at long range every time. And given the Super Warp than NuTrek ships seem to have, it's not a problem to get places with the ship.

It seemed to take mere minutes to zip all the way to the Klingon neutral zone and then to the homeworld and back again. But I suspect JJ likes the Star Wars feel. Jumping around the Galaxy at super speed.

 

[BillJ]

Re: At what point does the Federation decide to stop to building vesse

With transwarp beaming, sure you can beam a trilithium warhead to the enemy star, and wipe it out their whole star system. That's a big problem.

There are extra steps involved, but nothing stops someone with a starship and a cloaking device from doing the same thing.

 

[Tarek71]

Re: At what point does the Federation decide to stop to building vesse

With transwarp beaming, sure you can beam a trilithium warhead to the enemy star, and wipe it out their whole star system. That's a big problem.

There are extra steps involved, but nothing stops someone with a starship and a cloaking device from doing the same thing.

Exactly. You still need ships anyway. Their sensors, labs, heavy weapons, shields, sick bay, etc. And thanks to JJ Super Warp you can get there fast. How long was the trip to and from the Klingon homeworld and Earth? Seemed like minutes to get from neutral zone to Sol system. The whole thing seemed less than one full day. Zip, Zap.

 

[Jeffe525]

Re: At what point does the Federation decide to stop to building vesse

The introduction of transwarp beaming makes the starship obsolete, just as much as the transporter made the shuttlecraft obsolete.

This is non-sense. We still saw shuttle craft used in all the 24th century shows, quite frequently. Airplanes didn't replace cars or trains or boats, they supplemented them.

Yes, it did for long-distance travel. Traveling great distance by train or boat is only recreational anymore. A Star Trek universe using Transwarp beaming would have a fleet of freighters, cruise lines, and the occasional Defiant-class to protect shipping lanes.

Yes, we still saw the shuttle craft, but how often? With transwarp beaming the norm, we would see starships about as often as we saw the shuttle craft. How many episodes does that leave us with? How long would such a STAR TREK show last?

Transwarp beaming didn't seem to break the universe when used in "Bloodlines"...

Subspace beaming in Bloodlines was immediately dismissed as a technology that was "too unreliable and energy-intensive for Starfleet." Unlike nuTrek, the Bloodlines writers had the good sense to opened and closed the device within one episode. But Into Darkness double downs on transwarp beaming, making it a game-changer in the wrong way.

 

[BillJ]

Re: At what point does the Federation decide to stop to building vesse

Yes, it did for long-distance travel. Traveling great distance by train or boat is only recreational anymore.

Long distance travel isn't the only usage of technology. Here's a hint, those massive ships and tractor trailers aren't being used for recreation.

Yes, we still saw the shuttle craft, but how often? With transwarp beaming the norm, we would see starships about as often as we saw the shuttle craft. How many episodes does that leave us with? How long would such a STAR TREK show last?

We saw shuttles all the fucking time in every one of the shows.

Subspace beaming in Bloodlines was immediately dismissed as a technology that was "too unreliable and energy-intensive for Starfleet." Unlike nuTrek, the Bloodlines writers had the good sense to opened and closed the device within one episode. But Into Darkness double downs on transwarp beaming, making it a game-changer in the wrong way.

We've seen transwarp beaming used twice and we have no idea what Starfleet's long term prognosis is for the technology. But, apparently, other races have been able to perfect it. Including the people who sent Gary Seven to Earth in "Assignment: Earth" and the Ferengi.

Should the Federation remain technologically stagnant? That is worse than universe breaking, it makes the entire universe boring. Every show, across two hundred-plus years using the same exact technology.

What if they move to the 25th century? Should technology remain stagnant? The same warp drive, phasers, torpedoes and transporters that Archer was using in the 22nd century?

 

[Jeffe525]

Re: At what point does the Federation decide to stop to building vesse

Long distance travel isn't the only usage of technology. Here's a hint, those massive ships and tractor trailers aren't being used for recreation.

Which is why I said the fleet would be full of FREIGHTERS. Now-now, Bill. Lets not cherry-pick my comments.

We saw shuttles all the fucking time in every one of the shows.

Transporters are by far the mode of choice. By comparison, the shuttle is rarely used; hardly ever just for going down to a planet.

What if they move to the 25th century? Should technology remain stagnant? The same warp drive, phasers, torpedoes and transporters that Archer was using in the 22nd century?

Well, if we look at the evolution of manned space flight over the last 50 years, I would think that achieving high warp speeds, shields, and perfecting regular transporters over the course of 200 years in the Trek world is pretty good.

Should the Federation remain technologically stagnant? That is worse than universe breaking, it makes the entire universe boring. Every show, across two hundred-plus years using the same exact technology.

No, the UFP should not remain technologically stagnant. But, like Warp Drive, Trek's producers found out a long time ago that it's very easy to make the tech too advanced. NuTrek has forgotten this lesson and has used the Transwarp convenience beaming twice in a row; until it's somehow debunked, that makes it canon.

The question of this thread is at what point, technologically, would Starfleet stop building Starships. I put forth that Transwarp beaming, for the most part, would pretty much do the trick. At that point, the world is outside the realm of the core universe, and it will be the end of Star Trek. This is why I'm against it.

 

[BillJ]

Re: At what point does the Federation decide to stop to building vesse

The question of this thread is at what point, technologically, would Starfleet stop building Starships. I put forth that Transwarp beaming, for the most part, would pretty much do the trick. At that point, the world is outside the realm of the core universe, and it will be the end of Star Trek. This is why I'm against it.

Transwarp beaming ain't it.

 

[Jeffe525]

Re: At what point does the Federation decide to stop to building vesse

The question of this thread is at what point, technologically, would Starfleet stop building Starships. I put forth that Transwarp beaming, for the most part, would pretty much do the trick. At that point, the world is outside the realm of the core universe, and it will be the end of Star Trek. This is why I'm against it.

Transwarp beaming ain't it.

Oh, ok. Well why didn't you say so in the first place? I'm sold.

 

[Tarek71]

Re: At what point does the Federation decide to stop to building vesse

My personal theory for why transwarp beaming and Super Warp exists in the 23rd century is due to the events of "Regeneration" in ENT.

At the end of that episode you have:

1. All the remaining Borg wreckage in the Arctic is still there. What happened to it? Can't just leave it sitting there.

2. The Enterprise fired two Borgified Tarkaleans in to space. What happened to their bodies? Presumably Enterprise went back to get them. Can't just leave them floating around, waiting for a ship to unwittingly take them on board.

3. The Borgified transport wreckage, which included large visually intact sections. Where is that at? Too big to fit in Enterprise, and the NX 01 doesn't have a tractor beam....sooooo. Who picked it up? Maybe the Vulcans. IDK. Maybe various Starfleet ships were dispatched to collect it. Can't just leave that stuff floating around in space.

The first time we see the 23rd Century after the events of "Regeneration" is ST09. No way all that Borg tech just vanishes. And no way it wasn't collected and very extensively researched over the subsequent years and decades.

 

[USS Triumphant]

Re: At what point does the Federation decide to stop to building vesse

My personal theory for why tans warp beaming and Super Warp exists in the 23rd century is due to the events of "Regeneration" in ENT.

At the end of that episode you have:

1. All the remaining Borg wreckage in the Arctic is still there. What happened to it? Can't just leave it sitting there.

2. The Enterprise fired two Borgified Tarkaleans in to space. What happened to their bodies? Presumably Enterprise went back to get them. Can't just leave them floating around, waiting for a ship to unwittingly take them on board.

3. The Borgified transport wreckage, which included to large visually intact sections. Where is that at? Too big to fit in Enterprise, and the NX 01 doesn't have a tractor beam....sooooo. Who picked it up? Maybe the Vulcans. IDK. Maybe various Starlet ships were dispatched to collect it. Can't just leave that stuff floating around in space.

The first time we see the 23rd Century after the events of "Regeneration" is ST09. No way all that Borg tech just vanishes. And no way it wasn't collected and very extensively researched over the subsequent years and decades.

Well, I mean, if you want to go *this* route, do you *really* think Section 31 or Starfleet Intelligence would have failed to go through all the stuff in Crewman Daniels' quarters?

 

[Tarek71]

Re: At what point does the Federation decide to stop to building vesse

My personal theory for why tans warp beaming and Super Warp exists in the 23rd century is due to the events of "Regeneration" in ENT.

At the end of that episode you have:

1. All the remaining Borg wreckage in the Arctic is still there. What happened to it? Can't just leave it sitting there.

2. The Enterprise fired two Borgified Tarkaleans in to space. What happened to their bodies? Presumably Enterprise went back to get them. Can't just leave them floating around, waiting for a ship to unwittingly take them on board.

3. The Borgified transport wreckage, which included to large visually intact sections. Where is that at? Too big to fit in Enterprise, and the NX 01 doesn't have a tractor beam....sooooo. Who picked it up? Maybe the Vulcans. IDK. Maybe various Starlet ships were dispatched to collect it. Can't just leave that stuff floating around in space.

The first time we see the 23rd Century after the events of "Regeneration" is ST09. No way all that Borg tech just vanishes. And no way it wasn't collected and very extensively researched over the subsequent years and decades.

Well, I mean, if you want to go *this* route, do you *really* think Section 31 or Starfleet Intelligence would have failed to go through all the stuff in Crewman Daniels' quarters?

Oh hell yes they would go through it! Lol. I dont remember how much Archer shared with Starfleet about it, or what Section 31 knew. But if they knew, of course they would go through it. Does anyone think that the folks in Section 31 would say, "Oh we better not, could change the timeline." Yeah right.

A plane once crashed a few streets over from my house. That very day, and in the days after, investigators were all over the place. Our backyard was searched by investigators looking for any little piece that may have landed there. And all the other yards.

They combed for every last splinter of that aircraft, collected them and off they went. You would not believe how fast every trace of that aircraft disappeared from the area. Can you even imagine if this had been a crash of anything they believed to be highly advanced, alien or from the future?

 

[Jeffe525]

Re: At what point does the Federation decide to stop to building vesse

Agreed. All that stuff is archived at section 31, except for Daniel's stuff. I think Daniels left his equipment with Archer for a reason. Had S31 taken it to use it for their own purposes, Daniels would've taken it back.

Either way, I don't think Regeneration really had anything to do with Starfleet tech advancement. Quantum dating would've confirmed when the arctic wreckage came from but it's obvious that the UFP still wasn't prepared when Q introduced Picard to the Borg 200+ years later.

 

[Tarek71]

Re: At what point does the Federation decide to stop to building vesse

Agreed. All that stuff is archived at section 31, except for Daniel's stuff. I think Daniels left his equipment with Archer for a reason. Had S31 taken it to use it for their own purposes, Daniels would've taken it back.

Either way, I don't think Regeneration really had anything to do with Starfleet tech advancement. Quantum dating would've confirmed when the arctic wreckage came from but it's obvious that the UFP still wasn't prepared when Q introduced Picard to the Borg 200+ years later.

Well, that's when we discuss quantum realities. One view of Trek continuity is that there is one linear, sequential ("Prime") timeline of events from "Broken Bow" in 2151 to "Endgame" and "Nemesis", not counting elder Spock and Nero.

Another view is alot more timey-wimey. As you know, JJ, Orci & Co use QM, the TNG episode "Parallels" and Datas comments in that episode to explain the NuVerse alternate reality. They think that there are not only an infinite number of quantum realities with alternate timelines, but that every time you time travel, including all the previous 50-plus time travel Trek installments, you create alternate timelines, different "quantum realities".

So imagine a new quantum reality/timeline created by the Borg temporal incursion in First Contact. Just like the "Prime" timeline up until 2063, but then things diverge from there. However slightly or greatly. Then "Regeneration" happens. There are a whole family of multiplying, varying quantum realities that go forward from there.

In some the Borg did go to 2063 Earth, but the events of "Regeneration" did not happen. Maybe the Ent-E obliterated/vaporized the debris and bodies. In others FC and Regeneration happened. Yeah Regeneration is 2152ish and that is "before" TNG, but in one sense happened not "after", but separately and differently.

"Q Who" therefore is a different quantum timeline then the sequence of events of First Contact-Regeneration-Nu 23rd Century.

 

[at Quark's]

Re: At what point does the Federation decide to stop to building vesse

What if they move to the 25th century? Should technology remain stagnant? The same warp drive, phasers, torpedoes and transporters that Archer was using in the 22nd century?

Well, if we look at the evolution of manned space flight over the last 50 years, I would think that achieving high warp speeds, shields, and perfecting regular transporters over the course of 200 years in the Trek world is pretty good.

Actually, that's one of the things that bothers me about the general trek (prime) timeline. Between now and 2150 there seems to be some quite incredible progress; many inventions that would drastically change the way we live, such as warp, followed by warp 5 80 years later, the transporter, the universal translator, handheld ray weapons, tricorder-like devices, and even a lot of 'background 'inventions that would make an enterprise-NX ship possible at all (such as gravity plating). In fact, most of the classic trek magical devices are already there in Enterprise, even though the writers hastily wish to assure us the're still quite primitive there ("please take our word for it 'cause we ain't gonna show it on-screen").

Then, between 2150 and 2370, there seems to be some technical refinement, but most of it seems gradual and a matter of degree (stuff like 'higher warp, faster computers, better shields'), but almost no fundamentally new inventions that really seems to change the lives of starfleet members. I could perhaps mention the holodeck and the replicators, but compared to the 2015-2150 period, that seems a scant harvest. Though of course there could be many innovations 'under the hood' that were fundamental but just don't change the lives of Our Heroes that much (such as duotronic -> isolinear -> gelpack circuitry, or better medical treatment (I don't see Beverley using osmotic eels)).

Which is all the more strange, since during 2015-2150 humanity basically has to invent all new stuff themselves, whereas after that, they are supposed to be in a prosperous ever-growing Federation that encourages trade and free exchange of scientific information.

So that would mean that either humanity is better at developing exciting new stuff when working alone, or that after reaching some level, making further progress gets significantly harder

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Re: At what point does the Federation decide to stop to building vesse

Well, there's a fundamental difference there in that stargates require terminals at both ends. Trek transporters never did.

They do if you want to come back with transwarp beaming.

 

[Timo]

Re: At what point does the Federation decide to stop to building vesse

Do we know that? The two movies dealing with the tech made no statement either way. And supposedly transwarp beaming was the way to get Kirk and Spock aboard Nero's ship, but the plan also involved getting them back somehow... This "somehow" eventually turning out to be via transporter.

Which is all the more strange, since during 2015-2150 humanity basically has to invent all new stuff themselves, whereas after that, they are supposed to be in a prosperous ever-growing Federation that encourages trade and free exchange of scientific information.

...So between 2015 and 2063, mankind invents trinkets, but in 2063, it gains access to the interstellar standard of equipment, stuff that has been there for thousands of years and will continue to be there for thousands more. Between 2063 and 2150, mankind manages to secure rights to a threshold number of those standard inventions, after which all inventing is done for the next couple of millennia.

Really, it would be amazing that there should be any progress between 2150 and 2350, when supposedly there has been none between -1000 and 2150. Or in other words, we never get mention of a time when Vulcans wouldn't have had warp drive, transporters, tractor beams and death rays.

Things really are as they should be: before interstellar contact, humans can live under the illusion that they invent a lot of stuff, but at that contact, they learn it has all been invented ages ago. It's difficult to keep on inventing with a deflated ego, even if one isn't competing with the brightest minds of hundreds of civilizations and is thousands of years late at the starting line.

Timo Saloniemi