Yes, but by that logic, any episode or movie or even scene could be cut from continuity the exact same way. Therefore it's pretty meaningless.
Old Spock and new Spock. Is it an alternate universe?
- Thread starter Gingerbread Demon
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Yes, but by that logic, any episode or movie or even scene could be cut from continuity the exact same way. Therefore it's pretty meaningless.
I think after 10 Pages of discussion, it is established that the NuMovies, and the explanations of the producers/writers only confused people. The relationship of this timeline to the other timeline(s) have been so vage and inconclusive, that almost everybody can interpret it into their respective preference. After following and participating in this discussion here and elsewhere I, for me, have come to the conclusion that we have to wait for the next materialisation of Star Trek to see how the current one can be categorized. If the next one is based on the JJ Films, we can pretty much establish, that this is replacing the original timeline and becomes the new prime verse. Kinda what happened with Star Wars and its expanded universe. If the next one reverts back to the prime verse, the JJ Films are just a variation, an alternate (quantum?) timeline. And we'll have to see what happened with Remus, Romulus and Spock in there. And if the next one is something completely different like a reboot or new Interpretation or whatever, well... then the discussion will start all over again...
Fakt is, the (non)explanation in the JJ-Movies leaves too many ways to be interpreted. And I believe this was on purpose, as they tried to create a version that continues, retells, reinterprets and prequels Star Trek all at the same time. No wonder this leads to confusion. They tried to eat that cake and keep it at the same time.
Well Orci & Co explain this with QM and TNG's "Parallels". But they make it sound like they think you can't change timelines, only create new variant, alternate, parallel quantum realities.
So the idea is that Nero departs from Prime 2387 travels back to Prime 2233, and creates a new quantum, alternate timeline that branches off from Prime 2233 as Nu 2233. Not sure if they address how Spock lands in Nu 2258 and not Prime 2258. In whatever "branch" he lands doesn't he create yet another branch from that point? Again, not sure that's addressed. They may have.
In-universe, we have no clear evidence that that's what happened. Nero and elder Spock could have been from any one of an infinite number of quantum realities and landed in any number of different, possibly already existing, realities.
Indeed.
Additionally, it does not change my enjoyment of the films, or my interpretation that elder Spock is Prime Spock. As I said earlier, we don't have enough data on screen to make a conclusion one way or other, so I'm happy with Orci and Kurtzman's explanation
Beyond that, the rest is really semantics. I mean, it could be argued that "The Cage" is one continuity, and "Where No Man..." is another, with the rest of TOS being a third. I'm pretty sure that I saw that in a thread somewhere
I'm just going to point this out. At the time Star Trek 2009 was released:
Despite the death of two of the main cast members, it would be impossible to get the (at the time) five surviving original cast to look like they had about 45 years prior for the entire film. It is obvious, in the film, and based upon the intent of the producers that the new cast and the old cast are supposed to be the same people under different circumstances. Why cast Leonard in the role of Spock Prime otherwise?
You can argue the semantics of alternate universes, mirror universes, quantum string fluctuations and whatever you want until you're blue in the face. 95... No... 98% of fans don't care.
It is the intent of the producers
Spock states as much in the film.
Spock Prime recognizes Kirk and Scotty.
Spock recognizes Spock Prime as himself and vice versa.
If you're expecting Spock Prime to explicitly state, "Hey, you must be James Kirk, who looked a lot like this actor in the 1960's named William Shatner but instead you kinda look like this actor from the 2010s named Chris Pine," you're going to be in for a big disappointment. It ain't happening.
It does not lessen the Prime universe in the slightest. No one has come and taken your DVDs. No one says you have to stop watching them. No one says that it supersedes anything else. No one says you have to like the new movies. It is an alternate/mirror universe/reality. Whatever. It gives the new producers free to do what they want. But to make this argument that it's not explicitly stated is just arguing for the sake of arguing. And it's tired and played out.
I don't think there's anything else to say.
- DeForest Kelley had been dead for ten years.
- James Doohan had been dead for five years.
- Leonard Nimoy was 77 years old.
- William Shatner was 77 years old.
- Nichelle Nichols was was 75 years old
- Walter Koenig was 72 years old.
- George Takei was 72 years old.
Despite the death of two of the main cast members, it would be impossible to get the (at the time) five surviving original cast to look like they had about 45 years prior for the entire film. It is obvious, in the film, and based upon the intent of the producers that the new cast and the old cast are supposed to be the same people under different circumstances. Why cast Leonard in the role of Spock Prime otherwise?
You can argue the semantics of alternate universes, mirror universes, quantum string fluctuations and whatever you want until you're blue in the face. 95... No... 98% of fans don't care.
It is the intent of the producers
Spock states as much in the film.
Spock Prime recognizes Kirk and Scotty.
Spock recognizes Spock Prime as himself and vice versa.
If you're expecting Spock Prime to explicitly state, "Hey, you must be James Kirk, who looked a lot like this actor in the 1960's named William Shatner but instead you kinda look like this actor from the 2010s named Chris Pine," you're going to be in for a big disappointment. It ain't happening.
It does not lessen the Prime universe in the slightest. No one has come and taken your DVDs. No one says you have to stop watching them. No one says that it supersedes anything else. No one says you have to like the new movies. It is an alternate/mirror universe/reality. Whatever. It gives the new producers free to do what they want. But to make this argument that it's not explicitly stated is just arguing for the sake of arguing. And it's tired and played out.
I don't think there's anything else to say.
All it does is create more creative possibilities. Exactly as JJ intended. If you buy the Data/Parallels/Orci model there are endless possible variations on these characters and the different adventures they can have.
If you want Romulus to be intact and elder Spock to be part of the Prime 2390s you can. You can just say that the events of ST09 were just one possible quantum reality/timeline. I think opens things up to consider all the possibilies.
It opens up creative possibilities by ignoring creative intent. So, it kind of ignores what the authors are trying to communicate.
Which is fine, as individuals can put their own interpretation on a work of fiction. Just not my preferred method of engaging a work.
Which is fine, as individuals can put their own interpretation on a work of fiction. Just not my preferred method of engaging a work.
The credits identify the character portrayed by Leonard Nimoy as "Prime Spock." The credits are production POV, and the character's name (Prime Spock) is in-universe.
In the credits:
Left side = In-universe character name
Right side = Out of universe actor name
Sorry if this was already settled. I had to start skipping when when the old semantical debate over "parallel universe", "alternate timeline", and "alternate reality" started.
Oh, I'm actually completely fine with Elder Spock being the "Prime" Spock of TOS. I always have been.
Not because of the credits, although I don't think "Prime Spock" was his name onscreen. I enjoy delving into the many possibilities created by alternate, parallel timelines, universes, and different "quantum realities", etc.
But those possibilities are not really that fun when other's are not in on the fun, you know?
Not really, no. We are talking about different possible fictional timelines, universes and alternate "quantum realities". What's not to love?
Which is not at all the impression you've given in your last hundred posts on the subject.
She's just shifting quantum realities at the moment. Let's focus on the reality at hand, shall we?
Yes, it's an alternate universe. The movie damn well says so.
/thread
It happens that I do think the movies, in-universe and on screen do not definitely establish what universe/timeline elder Spock is from. Indeed he could be from any one of an infinite number of possible universes/timelines/quantum realities.
But that's not the same as saying I somehow have some weird animus towards him being TOS Spock. I just strongly suspect that he isnt.
The only proof that you have that he might not be TOS Spock though is that rather then making younger clones of Doohan, Shatner, and the others to play the new universe's version of their Star Trek characters they got new actors to play them.
This is the actual issue with this whole subject. The producers explained it publicly but not in the movie. That means - like in Star Wars - whoever gets in charge of Star Trek after JJ, will explain publicly how the NuMovies are related to the previous installments and whether they will be considered canon or not in the next Show/Movie/WebSeries/Holoprogram (or whatever technology we use to consume it when CBS decides to actually go forward with Star Trek). Take for instance Disney: "The expanded universe is not canon". And the discussion is over. Until that ...possibilities are as limitless, how everything fits together.
That does not automatically make it fun for everyone else, especially if the arguments are treated as inconclusive.
As I stated a couple of times, the evidence is in-conclusive, either way. Making an "in-universe" judgement is not possible because we cannot perceive the character's POV.
My personal belief is that alternate timelines and parallel timelines are not created but always existed and characters just travel between them. They sometimes travel through time in the process of "switching tracks".
There's nothing to say that the MU is any different in terms of being an alternate timeline than the Nuniverse, relative to the Prime timeline. We witness events in all three, and it can be argued that in the course of the tv series we jumped timelines several times (or hundreds), but as we're not privy to the details of the timelines' creation, we can't say conclusively that it is Our Heroes' time travel or wormhole malfunction or what-not that "created" these timelines.
While I understand that it would never happen for dramatic reasons, in-universe I can't imagine that, certainly after post-"Parallels", any time travel or what-not isn't immediately proceeded by a quantum signature scan to confirm that everyone is in the timeline that they're supposed to be inhabiting.
There's nothing to say that the MU is any different in terms of being an alternate timeline than the Nuniverse, relative to the Prime timeline. We witness events in all three, and it can be argued that in the course of the tv series we jumped timelines several times (or hundreds), but as we're not privy to the details of the timelines' creation, we can't say conclusively that it is Our Heroes' time travel or wormhole malfunction or what-not that "created" these timelines.
While I understand that it would never happen for dramatic reasons, in-universe I can't imagine that, certainly after post-"Parallels", any time travel or what-not isn't immediately proceeded by a quantum signature scan to confirm that everyone is in the timeline that they're supposed to be inhabiting.
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