Old Spock and new Spock. Is it an alternate universe?
- Thread starter Gingerbread Demon
- Start date
What is this argument even about? I don't understand.
It's about six pages longer than it needed to be.
I suggested that elder Spock seen in ST09 could have been from any number of possible alternate/parallel universes. JJ clearly intends that he is from the "Prime" universe, but the onscreen, in-universe evidence doesn't conclusively establish it. Therefore he could be from a different one.
Further, that the crew in the JJ VERSE look so different from the "Prime" universe. That could be due to the fact that the NuVerse was an already existing alternate/parallel universe.
Then began a bizarre multipage series of comments about these and related issues. These suggestions of mine obviously touched a very raw nerve is a few folks. Not sure why.
I'm having fun, I don't know about anyone else. :-)
Thing is, you're just dead wrong here on all the evidence.
Nope. I provided the evidence that directly shot ya down. You're just side stepping it now. Which is fine. I gave a good example to Dukhat involving you, and he side stepped that as well. So at least you're not alone in that!
Oh, I'm sure you know exactly why.
And I'm sure some people have been alerted to the "fun" you're having.
Problem is, we don't have all the facts. So, logically, we cannot make a correct conclusion without all the facts. Imperfect data results in imperfect conclusions.
Thus, I defer to the writers, and past Trek, on these matters.
Others can disagree, obviously.
Thus, I defer to the writers, and past Trek, on these matters.
Others can disagree, obviously.
I defer to how the story plays out. Spock Prime clearly recognizes Kirk, Scotty and younger Spock as people he's known, even if he's in a different timeline. That's about as in-universe as it gets.
I'm inclined to agree.
It was roughly 100 posts ago that it ought to have been clear that no one was likely to budge, and from that point hence dialogue has been running in tight circles, covering basically the same ground over and over.
Maybe this thread could break out of that loop and take a different direction - one which doesn't involve everyone else assailing Tarek71's unyielding position. Just let it be.
At the very least, what I'd like to see disappear real soon are all of the little personal digs which have been starting to creep in around the edges of this post and that and the other. (You know who you are, and since nearly all of you have heard it from me before, you know you're not supposed to do that. So knock that shit off and behave, already.)
I think the expression "alternate reality" as used in ST09 was misused or has been misunderstood, as there is no suggestion in the movie that a new timeline has been created in addition to the Prime one. There is one timeline (the timeline in which NimoySpock = QuintoSpock, etc.), which has been diverted in a different direction. (So the JJ-haters are technically correct that "their" Star Trek has been annihilated.)
Trek has probably dealt with every version of time travel and multiverse theory in its history, but this is the version that was used in this particular instance.
I think after 10 Pages of discussion, it is established that the NuMovies, and the explanations of the producers/writers only confused people. The relationship of this timeline to the other timeline(s) have been so vage and inconclusive, that almost everybody can interpret it into their respective preference. After following and participating in this discussion here and elsewhere I, for me, have come to the conclusion that we have to wait for the next materialisation of Star Trek to see how the current one can be categorized. If the next one is based on the JJ Films, we can pretty much establish, that this is replacing the original timeline and becomes the new prime verse. Kinda what happened with Star Wars and its expanded universe. If the next one reverts back to the prime verse, the JJ Films are just a variation, an alternate (quantum?) timeline. And we'll have to see what happened with Remus, Romulus and Spock in there. And if the next one is something completely different like a reboot or new Interpretation or whatever, well... then the discussion will start all over again...
Fakt is, the (non)explanation in the JJ-Movies leaves too many ways to be interpreted. And I believe this was on purpose, as they tried to create a version that continues, retells, reinterprets and prequels Star Trek all at the same time. No wonder this leads to confusion. They tried to eat that cake and keep it at the same time.
Fakt is, the (non)explanation in the JJ-Movies leaves too many ways to be interpreted. And I believe this was on purpose, as they tried to create a version that continues, retells, reinterprets and prequels Star Trek all at the same time. No wonder this leads to confusion. They tried to eat that cake and keep it at the same time.
TL-DR situation, but a big indicator for me that older Spock might not be from the prime universe is where he said (words to the effect) Khan was the most dangerous being they ever encountered.
Seriously ... Khan?
TOS universe Spock interacted with beings and things that wiped clean entire planets and star systems, and Khan was the most dangerous?
Took me out of the moment right in the theater, and immediately made consider that older Spock was originally from "somewhere else."
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It was only against Khan that Spock himself died. Considering that, I think it's a fair enough assessment.
If I was thinking 'What's the most dangerous thing I've ever seen', then 'The only thing that managed to fucking kill me!' would be near the top of the list.
He also got his mitts on what amounts to an Insta-planet killer device, detonated it, and had the ambition that other threats on a similar scale (V'ger, the planet killer, and the Probe, or even Charlie and Trelane) lacked. He also successfully managed to both take over the world, and Kirk's ship. His only weaknesses were his own temper, arrogance, and being bugfuck nuts by TWOK.
Isn't the reasons fans usually like Khan that he practically achieved everything he wanted? He wanted Kirk to suffer, and as the ultimate result of Khans actions Spock, The Enterprise, and then David die.
He also got his mitts on what amounts to an Insta-planet killer device, detonated it, and had the ambition that other threats on a similar scale (V'ger, the planet killer, and the Probe, or even Charlie and Trelane) lacked. He also successfully managed to both take over the world, and Kirk's ship. His only weaknesses were his own temper, arrogance, and being bugfuck nuts by TWOK.
Isn't the reasons fans usually like Khan that he practically achieved everything he wanted? He wanted Kirk to suffer, and as the ultimate result of Khans actions Spock, The Enterprise, and then David die.
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Where? It's not in the movies.
They didn't confuse me at all; it's laid out very clearly IMO.
It's not - they've explained it publicly but not in the movie. But discussion of whether the original timeline still exists is an entirely separate issue from the fact, established in the movies and in-universe, that we're talking about an alternate rather than parallel universe and that Nimoy's playing TOS Spock. That's why I addressed them separately.
You're right that onscreen and in-universe there is no discussion of a "Prime" universe that continues on, unaffected by the events of 2233.
Fans rely on Orci, JJ and Co interviews wherein they explain the NuVerse by reference to QM, the TNG episode " Parallels" and Datas dialogue in that episode.
Orci & Co seem to be under the impression that it is not even possible to change a timeline. All time travel would accomplish would be the creation of still more new, alternate and parallel timelines. More new variant "quantum realities" Branching out.
Of course Data in "Parallels" wasn't discussing time travel. Only the idea that everything that can happen does happen in other quantum realities. There could therefore be billions, trillions and zillions of alternate, parallel realities.
What I've suggested is that elder Spock could be from any number of possible timelines or universes. Apparently he is from one where Kirk and Scotty look the way they do in ST09.
It is not established in the movie, on screen, in universe what timeline or universe elder Spock is from. Nor is there some onscreen, in-universe clarity on parallel vs. Alternate.
In some episodes, the "mirror universe" is called an "alternate universe", in others it's called an "alternate reality", and in still others, a "parallel universe".
This is really just a matter of how the terminology is used. I think I've shown with the mirror universe example, that there is not a clear, onscreen, in-universe consistency in terminology within ST.
In any case, it doesn't change that elder Spock could be from any number of alternate/parallel universes.
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