THE LAST SHIP Season 2 - discussion, spoilers and general mayhem

[Gaith]

^ That's not even the shot that leapt out at me; this is:

​

As Obi-Wan would say, "That's no island..."

 

[Admiral2]

Even so, it's the responsibility of the states to send electors. When the Confederate former states didn't send any, there wasn't any Constitutional problem; their potential votes weren't even factored in, and only the votes actually submitted counted for anything. Ergo, as long as Missouri could throw a state legislature together, they could appoint a few electors to vote to re-elect the president, which the presumably nearby Congress would certify - problem solved.

Not quite. Think about what you just wrote: Confederate Former States.

The whole point behind creating the Confederacy was to create a separate political entity from the United States not under the authority of the US Government. That meant from the time the confederacy was formed to the surrender at Appomattox The United States of America and The Confederate States of America were two entirely different nations, and both sides of the war treated them as such. So the Confederate States not sending electors was not just a matter of oversight or protest. They had no right to send any in the first place. Sending them at that time would have been like The New England states sending delegates to London to vote for the leadership of the party in power. Meanwhile, the proper electors came from states that hadn't seceded, so the real reason there was no Constitutional problem was that nobody still under the Constitution's authority was violating it.

So your solution is based on a flawed premise, in that you have Congress treating Missouri as a loyal state (Union) and all the others as disloyal states (Confederates) just because it managed to get Electors to Defiance first. That means Michener's administration will last only until two things happen:

1. The Supreme Court is reconstituted.

2. the disenfranchised states manage to appoint Solicitors General, at which point they will go to the court and sue Congress's, Missouri's and Michener's asses off.

There is no easy solution to the problem of new presidential elections, and all of them require reconstituting Congress first (it can't just presumably be there - it has to be there) and reconstituting it in a constitutional manner. The Founding Fathers planned it that way. (Don't let the phrase "co-equal branches" fool you. There's a reason the first article in the document is about Congress.) Reconstitute Congress, you know how to rebuild the electoral college properly. If election time comes before then, there's some wiggle room in Article II Section 1 that may let Congress give Michener his extension.

Here's hoping Dr. Scott survives!

Agreed!

(My nitpick of the season: what the hell was with those mountains in the not-too-far background of that one shot of the oil rig off the Louisiana coast blowing up?! Sloppy! )

Well, at least the mountains didn't disappear suddenly with the dog.

All in all, a very strong season; at least as good as the first, IMO.

And here's hoping season three will kick more butt!

 

[Gaith]

Not quite. Think about what you just wrote: Confederate Former States.

The whole point behind creating the Confederacy was to create a separate political entity from the United States not under the authority of the US Government. That meant from the time the confederacy was formed to the surrender at Appomattox The United States of America and The Confederate States of America were two entirely different nations, and both sides of the war treated them as such.

Not quite; Lincoln made a point of consistently considering them Union states in a period of rebellion, as he held that states have no legal/Constitutional basis to unilaterally secede. If the states had sent electors in the 1864 election, voting for McClellan... that would have presented a fascinating Constitutional dilemma, but they didn't.

So your solution is based on a flawed premise, in that you have Congress treating Missouri as a loyal state (Union) and all the others as disloyal states (Confederates) just because it managed to get Electors to Defiance first.

No, a state that didn't manage to get its affairs in order to send electors does not equate to a disloyal state. The Constitution is a very short document, after all, and states:

The Congress may determine the Time of choosing the Electors, and the Day on which they shall give their Votes; which Day shall be the same throughout the United States.
​

So, if the national Congress sets a deadline, even a very short one given the country's state of devastation, and, say, Oregon doesn't get its stuff in order to appoint electors and send votes, that's on them. Yes, I'm gaming the system for the sake of convenience here, but then, so are you with your suggestion of "wiggle room" for a term extension, by which I've no idea what you're referring to.

 

[Admiral2]

Not quite. Think about what you just wrote: Confederate Former States.

The whole point behind creating the Confederacy was to create a separate political entity from the United States not under the authority of the US Government. That meant from the time the confederacy was formed to the surrender at Appomattox The United States of America and The Confederate States of America were two entirely different nations, and both sides of the war treated them as such.

Not quite; Lincoln made a point of consistently considering them Union states in a period of rebellion, as he held that states have no legal/Constitutional basis to unilaterally secede. If the states had sent electors in the 1864 election, voting for McClellan... that would have presented a fascinating Constitutional dilemma, but they didn't.

Maybe, but legally speaking if Lincoln had held to that he could never have issued the Emancipation Proclamation, which was essentially an executive order that declared all slaves in the southern states free. He wouldn't have had the authority if the confederate states were still states. The authority came from Lincoln's standing as commander-in-chief of the armed forces and the political idea that the confederacy was foreign soil and occupied enemy territory.

So your solution is based on a flawed premise, in that you have Congress treating Missouri as a loyal state (Union) and all the others as disloyal states (Confederates) just because it managed to get Electors to Defiance first.

No, a state that didn't manage to get its affairs in order to send electors does not equate to a disloyal state. The Constitution is a very short document, after all, and states:

The Congress may determine the Time of choosing the Electors, and the Day on which they shall give their Votes; which Day shall be the same throughout the United States.
​

So, if the national Congress sets a deadline, even a very short one given the country's state of devastation, and, say, Oregon doesn't get its stuff in order to appoint electors and send votes, that's on them. Yes, I'm gaming the system for the sake of convenience here, but then, so are you with your suggestion of "wiggle room" for a term extension, by which I've no idea what you're referring to.

Actually, my wiggle room comes from the same place as your system gaming. After all, what happens if none of the states make the deadline? And there's no other candidates? And, dadgummit, we gotta have a president for a full term! Michener's right there and he's been doin' the job for twelve months! All in favor?

 

[The Wormhole]

I also doubt the writers will give us an election storyline anytime soon, especially with their vagueness about the current year.

Actually, it's not so vague. The episode about deprogramming Michener's brainwashing shows computer files outlining the outbreak of the virus did indeed take place
in 2014. And since we know the Nathan James's arctic mission covers June to October. A mid season 1 episode has Chandler recording a captain's log (or rather message to his family) which is dated November, so I'm guessing they returned to the US and dealt with Mama Granderson in December 2014 or maybe even January 2015. Making season 2 set firmly in 2015.

 

[Gaith]

Maybe, but legally speaking if Lincoln had held to that he could never have issued the Emancipation Proclamation, which was essentially an executive order that declared all slaves in the southern states free. He wouldn't have had the authority if the confederate states were still states. The authority came from Lincoln's standing as commander-in-chief of the armed forces and the political idea that the confederacy was foreign soil and occupied enemy territory.

Occupied insurrectionary territory, yes - hence his military justification for freeing said slaves. Foreign soil, no - the Constitution says that it's the federal government's job to ensure states have a republican form of government, i.e., unless properly dismissed from the Union, which the Confederate states were not, they could not, by definition, be foreign soil. See the SCOTUS case Texas v. White (1869).

Actually, my wiggle room comes from the same place as your system gaming. After all, what happens if none of the states make the deadline? And there's no other candidates?

That's an easy one. Per the Constitution, in the event of an electoral college tie (and zero votes is, after all, a tie), the House of Representatives elects the president. AFAIK, however, there is no Constitutional flexibility on electing a president every four years. In short, you're wiggling considerably more than I am here.

 

[Admiral2]

Maybe, but legally speaking if Lincoln had held to that he could never have issued the Emancipation Proclamation, which was essentially an executive order that declared all slaves in the southern states free. He wouldn't have had the authority if the confederate states were still states. The authority came from Lincoln's standing as commander-in-chief of the armed forces and the political idea that the confederacy was foreign soil and occupied enemy territory.

Occupied insurrectionary territory, yes - hence his military justification for freeing said slaves. Foreign soil, no - the Constitution says that it's the federal government's job to ensure states have a republican form of government, i.e., unless properly dismissed from the Union, which the Confederate states were not, they could not, by definition, be foreign soil. See the SCOTUS case Texas v. White (1869).

Accepted.

Actually, my wiggle room comes from the same place as your system gaming. After all, what happens if none of the states make the deadline? And there's no other candidates?

That's an easy one. Per the Constitution, in the event of an electoral college tie (and zero votes is, after all, a tie), the House of Representatives elects the president. AFAIK, however, there is no Constitutional flexibility on electing a president every four years. In short, you're wiggling considerably more than I am here.

Never claimed different. I mainly just questioned the reasoning for your solution, which you explained. I stand corrected.

And ultimately the amount of wiggling is irrelevant, because in this particular situation some wiggling is mandatory. It doesn't have to happen every four years, but my point back when the presidential story debate started was that if events in Last Ship occur in real time, then there's no way in hell there can be a proper presidential election in 2016. So you wiggle to give him four more years, and you might have a shot at a proper election in 2020, after you've got the congress back, you've at least attempted a census and got the states up and running to some degree. That still might take more than four years, but you won't do it in a year and change.

 

[Aragorn]

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[The Wormhole]

Oh! That got the blood pumping! I noticed both Chandler and Slattery have been promoted, they both have four stripes on their shoulders, indicating they are actual Captains, O6 rank. For Chandler this makes sense, given he now has a desk job. But Slattery? I assume he's now captain of the Nathan James, so shouldn't his rank stay Commander? Or is this a case of, he's the second highest ranking officer in the Navy, so why not a higher rank?

 

[John Clark]

Looking forward to this - and nice to see Bridget Regan too

 

[Admiral2]

Oh! That got the blood pumping! I noticed both Chandler and Slattery have been promoted, they both have four stripes on their shoulders, indicating they are actual Captains, O6 rank. For Chandler this makes sense, given he now has a desk job. But Slattery? I assume he's now captain of the Nathan James, so shouldn't his rank stay Commander? Or is this a case of, he's the second highest ranking officer in the Navy, so why not a higher rank?

There are full bird Captains in real life running Burkes, so it's not a huge deal.

Can'twaitcan'twaitcan'twait!