Will Riker refusing own command

[Mojochi]

It astonishes me at how many posters have implied that being captain of a starship is "routine work"

Me too. Being the captain of any Starfleet vessel is still a superior post to being an XO on the superstar ship. Be honest. It's Starfleet. Have they ever shown one of their vessels that looked awful, like it would be a miserable place to be?

No. It's a Federation starship. Hell, even the trashed ones still look cool, like the Hathaway. Every ship has her charm, & every crew will bond in some way. So what are we really hashing over here, a minute degree less in fame, & luxury? That makes him shallow

 

[Lance]

^ Good point. There's such a gulf between the design of the Galaxy Class, and all those 'other' cold, utilitarian looking Starships we keep seeing in TNG, that it does make one wonder about the health of the Starfleet in the 24th century.

TNG didn't have the budget to make ''newer'' - looking ships for most of the duration of the show; so movie-era ship models were recycled (Stargazer was originally going to be a Constitution ship but it was modded into a Constellation at the last minute - some lines were overdubbed)
The handful of "newer" looking ships seen were most likely kitbashes from model kits of the E-D (Nebula, for example, although for GEN i believe it was digital).
So therefore, I theorize that all the newer class ships were out on extended duties and the older ''workhorse'' ships cruised closer to home. Just because we've only seen older ships doesn;t mean they're all old ships.

I know the real-world reason for it, and I'm not talking about the models anyway, I'm talking about the interior sets. There's such a diamorphic difference between the interiors of the 1701-D and those of every other Starfleet vessel that we ever see on the show, that one is only forced to wonder why 98% of the fleet, even the more modernish ones like the Nebula Class, all seem to still be movie-era utilitarian rust-buckets on the inside, and that only the Galaxy (and arguably the Sovereign) aren't.

It's easy to say "Oh, well to save money they just kept using the 1701-refit bridge set in a variety of different permutations". The point I'm making is that all of those permutations still look like the 1701-refit bridge. None of them have the uniquely 1701-D flavor that one might expect from 24th century starships. So, what's the in-universe explanation for that?

Unless, of course, Starfleet has the same kinds of money-crunch problems as Paramount Pictures, and uses off-the-shelf parts (in this case older bridge modules) for new ships?

 

[Ember]

^ Good point. There's such a gulf between the design of the Galaxy Class, and all those 'other' cold, utilitarian looking Starships we keep seeing in TNG, that it does make one wonder about the health of the Starfleet in the 24th century.

TNG didn't have the budget to make ''newer'' - looking ships for most of the duration of the show; so movie-era ship models were recycled (Stargazer was originally going to be a Constitution ship but it was modded into a Constellation at the last minute - some lines were overdubbed)
The handful of "newer" looking ships seen were most likely kitbashes from model kits of the E-D (Nebula, for example, although for GEN i believe it was digital).
So therefore, I theorize that all the newer class ships were out on extended duties and the older ''workhorse'' ships cruised closer to home. Just because we've only seen older ships doesn;t mean they're all old ships.

I know the real-world reason for it, and I'm not talking about the models anyway, I'm talking about the interior sets. There's such a diamorphic difference between the interiors of the 1701-D and those of every other Starfleet vessel that we ever see on the show, that one is only forced to wonder why 98% of the fleet, even the more modernish ones like the Nebula Class, all seem to still be movie-era utilitarian rust-buckets on the inside, and that only the Galaxy (and arguably the Sovereign) aren't.

It's easy to say "Oh, well to save money they just kept using the 1701-refit bridge set in a variety of different permutations". The point I'm making is that all of those permutations still look like the 1701-refit bridge. None of them have the uniquely 1701-D flavor that one might expect from 24th century starships. So, what's the in-universe explanation for that?

Unless, of course, Starfleet has the same kinds of money-crunch problems as Paramount Pictures, and uses off-the-shelf parts (in this case older bridge modules) for new ships?

I remember a novel, where the Bajorans felt they had restored their production facilities and shipyards in good enough shape to produce a starship for the Federation. Conceding to their request, Starfleet gives the Bajorans a complete set of blueprints for an Ambassador-class cruiser, right down to instructions on how to build every component themselves. Because the design was over half a century old, the Bajorans however got very angry, interpreting the choice of an older starship design as Starfleet not trusting the Bajorans with one of their latest designs, such as the Galaxy-class.

Anyway, they still end up building the ship for the Federation and in the end they realize that every component on that ship is of the latest design and top of the line. Starfleet had not provided them with the plans for an obsolete ship, but with the plans for one of their latest ships, simply using a hull that had been tested and proven over the past 50 years which for Starfleet was the most reliable option to use on the frontlines. The Bajorans learned to not judge a book by its cover and the construction overseer was proud of the ship he helped create.

 

[Ithekro]

Was it the USS Sisko?

 

[Ember]

I don't recall the name, but it at the moment made sense to me that no government is so vain as to design a brand new starship hull twice a decade, while an existing hull can be refit to last a century if the design is solid. If anything the Lakota would go on to prove that point.

 

[CrazyMatt]

Bad writing. It was not the best idea to define early Riker's character trait of fast promotions and the desire to captain a starship on a character who needs to stay put on the series throughout its entire run. So when Riker does end up as first officer for the seven-year run, he comes off like he lost all ambition and drive. The ONLY way his character arc has its proper conclusion on the show is for Patrick Stewart to leave.

The "Riker refuses to accept promotion" concept was wrong from the start--all it led to was "what new excuse can we think up for him to say no now?" It quickly became a tired storyline, although it did add some spice to BOBW.

The earliest the writers should have been fingered Riker for his own command was season seven, or maybe six. Then maybe it could have become a thread near the end of the series that "It's time for you to go, number one" meme got played out.

 

[Ember]

Bad writing. It was not the best idea to define early Riker's character trait of fast promotions and the desire to captain a starship on a character who needs to stay put on the series throughout its entire run. So when Riker does end up as first officer for the seven-year run, he comes off like he lost all ambition and drive. The ONLY way his character arc has its proper conclusion on the show is for Patrick Stewart to leave.

The "Riker refuses to accept promotion" concept was wrong from the start--all it led to was "what new excuse can we think up for him to say no now?" It quickly became a tired storyline, although it did add some spice to BOBW.

The earliest the writers should have been fingered Riker for his own command was season seven, or maybe six. Then maybe it could have become a thread near the end of the series that "It's time for you to go, number one" meme got played out.

They could also have written him out at the end of season six, giving Data his position for the last season, further exploring how a lack of visible empathy, yet caring for his crew would cause conflict for Data, which he'd seek to resolve growing further as a person. Will could have made a comeback during the final episode, in the timelines where he'd fit.

 

[Marsden]

They could also have written him out at the end of season six, giving Data his position for the last season, further exploring how a lack of visible empathy, yet caring for his crew would cause conflict for Data, which he'd seek to resolve growing further as a person. Will could have made a comeback during the final episode, in the timelines where he'd fit.

That would have made the "Admiral Riker" reveal even better!

 

[Jedman67]

I know the real-world reason for it, and I'm not talking about the models anyway, I'm talking about the interior sets. There's such a diamorphic difference between the interiors of the 1701-D and those of every other Starfleet vessel that we ever see on the show, that one is only forced to wonder why 98% of the fleet, even the more modernish ones like the Nebula Class, all seem to still be movie-era utilitarian rust-buckets on the inside, and that only the Galaxy (and arguably the Sovereign) aren't.

It's easy to say "Oh, well to save money they just kept using the 1701-refit bridge set in a variety of different permutations". The point I'm making is that all of those permutations still look like the 1701-refit bridge. None of them have the uniquely 1701-D flavor that one might expect from 24th century starships. So, what's the in-universe explanation for that?

Unless, of course, Starfleet has the same kinds of money-crunch problems as Paramount Pictures, and uses off-the-shelf parts (in this case older bridge modules) for new ships?

What interiors did we see?
Offhand, Bozeman, Enterprise-C, Yamato*, Jenolen and Stargazer. And the science ship from "Realm of Fear".
Except for Yamato, those were all old ships and never looked like rust buckets; just older ships with older designs. And for the most part, their bridges were redressed from the Battle Bridge Set

 

[Mojochi]

What interiors did we see?
Offhand, Bozeman, Enterprise-C, Yamato*, Jenolen and Stargazer. And the science ship from "Realm of Fear".

I'm recalling Data captaining the Sutherland & Riker on the Hathaway (Which he fawned over in glee, even though it was a wreck)

 

[Nebusj]

What interiors did we see?
Offhand, Bozeman, Enterprise-C, Yamato*, Jenolen and Stargazer. And the science ship from "Realm of Fear".

I'm recalling Data captaining the Sutherland & Riker on the Hathaway (Which he fawned over in glee, even though it was a wreck)

Sssh! The Sutherland bridge was just an old shoe closet and we were all pretending to see if Data ever caught on. So far it's been eighteen years and he isn't even suspicious!

 

[Mojochi]

It's certainly looked like a shoe closet Easily the saddest design of bridge in the entire franchise

 

[BillJ]

It's certainly looked like a shoe closet Easily the saddest design of bridge in the entire franchise

I have a feeling it wasn't the main bridge. Probably Auxiliary Control.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

The Sutherland might not have had its real bridge installed. I don't think it was ready to leave spacedock.

IIRC, Picard basically ordered the yard superintendent to get it out there regardless of the ship's condition. So they may have had to use an 'emergency' bridge thrown together at the last minute.

(side note: I'm surprised that LCDR Hobson was so easily cowed by Data's outburst. Hobson surely would know that any such outburst must be faked, since everyone knows Data did not have emotions. So why didn't Hobson call him on that?)

 

[Mojochi]

The Sutherland might not have had its real bridge installed. I don't think it was ready to leave spacedock.

IIRC, Picard basically ordered the yard superintendent to get it out there regardless of the ship's condition. So they may have had to use an 'emergency' bridge thrown together at the last minute.

Interesting. I hadn't considered it might not be the bridge. It has the makeup of a kind of bridge though, with a command chair & some kind of safety divider. Maybe a battle bridge?

(side note: I'm surprised that LCDR Hobson was so easily cowed by Data's outburst. Hobson surely would know that any such outburst must be faked, since everyone knows Data did not have emotions. So why didn't Hobson call him on that?)

Because despite whatever programming was going on in Data's response, it was clear he had the authority & the intention to relieve him of duty, & unless he wanted to insight a full blown mutiny, then he needed to shut up & let the captain run the damn ship. I don't think Data was bluffing. He'd have relieved that dude, & done it himself if he'd had to

Are we too off topic now?

 

[Jedman67]

The Sutherland might not have had its real bridge installed. I don't think it was ready to leave spacedock.

IIRC, Picard basically ordered the yard superintendent to get it out there regardless of the ship's condition. So they may have had to use an 'emergency' bridge thrown together at the last minute.

Interesting. I hadn't considered it might not be the bridge. It has the makeup of a kind of bridge though, with a command chair & some kind of safety divider. Maybe a battle bridge?

(side note: I'm surprised that LCDR Hobson was so easily cowed by Data's outburst. Hobson surely would know that any such outburst must be faked, since everyone knows Data did not have emotions. So why didn't Hobson call him on that?)

Because despite whatever programming was going on in Data's response, it was clear he had the authority & the intention to relieve him of duty, & unless he wanted to insight a full blown mutiny, then he needed to shut up & let the captain run the damn ship. I don't think Data was bluffing. He'd have relieved that dude, & done it himself if he'd had to

Most of this episode was quite forgettable. I can't recall how the bridge looked or if we even saw any other crew except for Hobson, but I"ll grant it was a rust bucket .
Also unrealistic that a serving XO would be able to be so rude and incompetent to his immediate superior, no matter how much he disliked him.

Are we too off topic now?

What?? I can't hear you, speak louder!!

 

[dammitjim6400]

TWO WORDS

BAD WRITTING...
A career officer would never turned down an opportunity at his own ship.

 

[Mister Spock]

Given the devastating loss of life at Wolf 359, you'd have thought Starfleet would be in desperate need of experienced captains as they rebuilt their fleet. Realistically, they'd either have to have promoted Picard to the Admiralty and made Riker the captain of Enterprise. Or kept Picard in place and forcibly transferred Riker to another ship.

 

[NigellaDeanna20]

I don't Riker was entirely wrong for refusing his own command. Bear in mind that he was second in command of the Federation's most famous flagship the Enterprise, and there is an awful lot of prestige with the Enterprise so in my opinion he wasn't wrong to refuse his own command at those various points.

Also, try and remember that one of the ships that Riker was offered was destroyed at Wolf 359 so staying on the Enterprise was probably the right decision overall.

 

[T'Girl]

But with Riker in command of that ship it might have survived, and Riker would have saved all or most of it crew.