Will Riker refusing own command

[Marsden]

^It's almost like the character was created for a purpose but they spent the whole rest of the time not using him for that purpose and eventually didn't know why he was there at all.

Many of the other characters had some real growth and had something happen with their time on the ship, Riker never did. They seemed like they wanted to reset him and do something with him with Thomas Riker but they chickened out at the end.

 

[BillJ]

They seemed like they wanted to reset him and do something with him with Thomas Riker but they chickened out at the end.

Not sure how well that would've worked out. But it would've been something interesting to try.

 

[Lance]

Riker's character suffered badly over the last half of the series.

^It's almost like the character was created for a purpose but they spent the whole rest of the time not using him for that purpose and eventually didn't know why he was there at all.

Many of the other characters had some real growth and had something happen with their time on the ship, Riker never did.

Yeah, Riker kind of stagnated. He was much more dynamic at the beginning but didn't go anywhere.

 

[WoTe]

^It's almost like the character was created for a purpose but they spent the whole rest of the time not using him for that purpose and eventually didn't know why he was there at all.

Many of the other characters had some real growth and had something happen with their time on the ship, Riker never did. They seemed like they wanted to reset him and do something with him with Thomas Riker but they chickened out at the end.

Wasn't the beard enough development?

If the father/son bore in Icarus factor was any indication and the weird Riker/Troi relationship throughout, as well as that androgynous alien relationship, plus sleeping with that alien who gave give the brainwashing funnel game goggles....

Well, I'm glad when they just left him the ass kicking XO and didn't explore him further. I thought Pegasus was an example of a good Riker episode. As well as the earlier war games one.

 

[Mojochi]

Riker's rise through the ranks was meteoric. He went from Ensign to Commander in a quite short amount of time, due to a string of incidents bolstering his record

To put it in its proper perspective, he & Geordi are the same age, & at Farpoint, Geordi is still only a LT. JG. It's fair to call Riker's rise from ensign to being offered captaincy, in only 7 years, a feat of superstardom. He was a rising star, who 7 months after graduating 8th in his class, went from the Pegasus, to a stretch of "lay-low" time on Betazed, (probably a couple years or so, likely until the classified debacle cooled off) promoted to LT. scored the Potemkin, then within the year, up to LT CDR. following Nervala, which scored him XO on the Hood for 2 or 3 years. That's too few postings & too few years for Pressman's influence to be insignificant, IMHO.

So, I like to think it was more than just cautiousness or assignment cherry picking behind his decision to be XO on the D. There is even some canon to suggest that he had other issues at play (in the ENT episode we dare not mention)

It boils down to the fact that Pressman isn't being figurative or boastful when he claims to have "made" Riker. That recommendation would aid Riker throughout his career, especially as a junior officer. It very likely opened doors for him he otherwise might not have had, like The Hood posting, & maybe even the Potemkin. I bet that glowing recommendation was still on his resume when he applied for the D posting, when it passed by Picard's eyes

Clearly after the Pegasus, Pressman went up the ladder himself, making his name a good one to drop, & it was only then that Riker realized he had risen on the laurels given to him by a corrupt captain, despite however much distinguishing he'd done for him self.

He was ashamed of himself for being something of a fraud commander, which explains why he never came forward about Pressman later on. He knew he had be benefited from it, & though he gritted through that shame as a commander, it was too much for him to consider becoming a captain under that weight, which is actually why it makes sense that ENT's TATV took place before he accepted the Titan. Troi counselled him through the shame, & he finally overcame it. (Oh noes, I mentioned it)

And that is the story of Riker, as I see it, but I still believe you have an obligation to accept captaincy when they offer it, for the good of the outfit, despite whatever personal crap you got going on

 

[Lance]

Riker's rise through the ranks was meteoric. He went from Ensign to Commander in a quite short amount of time, due to a string of incidents bolstering his record

To put it in its proper perspective, he & Geordi are the same age, & at Farpoint, Geordi is still only a LT. JG. It's fair to call Riker's rise from ensign to being offered captaincy, in only 7 years, a feat of superstardom. He was a rising star, who 7 months after graduating 8th in his class, went from the Pegasus, to a stretch of "lay-low" time on Betazed, (probably a couple years or so, likely until the classified debacle cooled off) promoted to LT. scored the Potemkin, then within the year, up to LT CDR. following Nervala, which scored him XO on the Hood for 2 or 3 years. That's too few postings & too few years for Pressman's influence to be insignificant, IMHO.

So, I like to think it was more than just cautiousness or assignment cherry picking behind his decision to be XO on the D. There is even some canon to suggest that he had other issues at play (in the ENT episode we dare not mention)

It boils down to the fact that Pressman isn't being figurative or boastful when he claims to have "made" Riker. That recommendation would aid Riker throughout his career, especially as a junior officer. It very likely opened doors for him he otherwise might not have had, like The Hood posting, & maybe even the Potemkin. I bet that glowing recommendation was still on his resume when he applied for the D posting, when it passed by Picard's eyes

Clearly after the Pegasus, Pressman went up the ladder himself, making his name a good one to drop, & it was only then that Riker realized he had risen on the laurels given to him by a corrupt captain, despite however much distinguishing he'd done for him self.

He was ashamed of himself for being something of a fraud commander, which explains why he never came forward about Pressman later on. He knew he had be benefited from it, & though he gritted through that shame as a commander, it was too much for him to consider becoming a captain under that weight, which is actually why it makes sense that ENT's TATV took place before he accepted the Titan. Troi counselled him through the shame, & he finally overcame it. (Oh noes, I mentioned it)

And that is the story of Riker, as I see it, but I still believe you have an obligation to accept captaincy when they offer it, for the good of the outfit, despite whatever personal crap you got going on

^ Interesting point, Mojochi. It's possible that his ridiculously fast rise through the ranks, in part posssibly orchestrated by Pressman or at least due in part to a perception of Riker's loyalty and commitment following the Pegasus incident, led to him having serious doubts at the time the 1701-D and Drake assignments both came up. On the one hand Starfleet was pulling out the captain's chair for him, but on the other he may have already been harboring doubts about how quickly his career had been developing, and *why* that was the case. Perhaps saying no to the Drake and electing to remain an XO, albeit on a new ship, was Riker's way of trying to redefine himself as being his own man, and not be under Pressman's wing all of the time. Enterprise may have been the first time in his career that he made a decision about where he wanted to be, rather than simply accepting the promotions that seemed to be coming his way every couple years.

Another thing to bear in mind is that Riker has got a 'daddy complex', thanks for all that crap that went down between him and Kyle Riker. Possibly Pressman exerted a kind of father-influence over him in the beginning, which he came to re-evaluate a decade on as not being *quite* what he had thought it was back on the Pegasus...

 

[Mr_Homn]

I'd rather be the first officer on the best ship in the fleet than the captain of some garbage scow, personally. Especially if the Captain was someone I deeply respected.

 

[BillJ]

I'd rather be the first officer on the best ship in the fleet than the captain of some garbage scow, personally. Especially if the Captain was someone I deeply respected.

I wouldn't. I'd rather be blazing my own path. That way when the cream-of-the-crop commands come up, I'm seen as qualified for them.

 

[Lance]

One of the things that makes "Best Of Both Worlds" work so well is that it handled the situation very realistically. Admiral Hanson flat out said that if Riker doesn't start accepting promotion, then Starfleet is going to stop pulling the big chair out for him. And the events of "Chain of Command" show that in the event of Picard moving on, it isn't necessarily a given that Riker would simply be bumped up to Captain... Starfleet could (and in that case did) just bring in another Captain over the top of him. So, if Will was banking on just sitting on his hands as XO and waiting to have Enterprise handed to him on a plate after Picard retires, then he's got another thing coming.

Ultimately we either have to accept that he's deliberately stunting his own career advancement for some reason, or that there's otherwise a larger underlying cause for why he isn't moving up the ranks anymore.

 

[Mojochi]

I'd rather be the first officer on the best ship in the fleet than the captain of some garbage scow, personally. Especially if the Captain was someone I deeply respected.

I wouldn't. I'd rather be blazing my own path. That way when the cream-of-the-crop commands come up, I'm seen as qualified for them.

Agreed. If captaining is what you want to be known for, then you do THAT, wherever & whenever they'll let you. You jump on the 1st tub they give you the keys to, & you MAKE that ship the best damn ship you can. Like Picard's Stargazer. That way, when they have a great ship to give, they give it to you because they know you have what it takes to keep it great. I imagine it's pretty darned rare that a captain stay his entire career on the same ship anyhow. Picard didn't. Hell, Kirk didn't. They just gave all his subsequent ships the same name, cuz he's effing Kirk

I don't understand how anyone could turn their nose up to any starship command as if it were menial. It's exploring the damn unknown reaches of the universe. The absolute worst they could do is send you out into the middle of nowhere on a science mission to survey or study something. Yeah, expanding the vastness of human knowledge... how boring. Plus, how many times has that turned into something extraordinary for them, where something magnificent is existing in the damn sand crystals or some such?

 

[Trekker4747]

One thing about this that I've thought about is that it seems the existence of The Enterprise seems to create something of a career plateau, which seems to more-or-less go against the more even future presented in Trek.

We're told the Enterprise has the "best of the best" on it and that it's an achievement to be assigned there, why would anyone want to be anywhere else? It goes on great, extravagant, missions and the Galaxy-Class itself is luxury and finery.

Then Riker is tossed the potential command of the Ares, whose class we don't exactly know or know what it looks like but doubtful it's a Galaxy or even Nebula class. I know Memory Alpha says it was a "Renaissance" class but that seems based off an Okudagram so blurry canon, and we've never seen a ship of this class. Given most of what we see in TNG it's more likely it was an Excelsior or Miranda class, maybe Ambassador. Some argument for a Constellation.

Then he's offered the Melbourne, an Excelsior class, and really going to any of those other ships would seem like a step down even though it's a promotion. Going to a cramped, utilitarian-looking, bucket after being in the lap of luxury with the Galaxy-Class Enterprise seems like a slap in the face.

So maybe that's what Riker was waiting for? A ship class that didn't suck and wasn't constructed from a design 50-80 years old?

 

[Lance]

^ Good point. There's such a gulf between the design of the Galaxy Class, and all those 'other' cold, utilitarian looking Starships we keep seeing in TNG, that it does make one wonder about the health of the Starfleet in the 24th century.

 

[BillJ]

So maybe that's what Riker was waiting for? A ship class that didn't suck and wasn't constructed from a design 50-80 years old?

Then he didn't deserve a command at all.

 

[Mojochi]

^That's exactly my point before. There's only 3 real explanations for why he turned down 3 commands
1. He'd rather be a superstar on a luxury vessel than relegated to being a commander to some lesser ship or crew, in which case, he's an egotistical elitist

2. He legitimately thought he could benefit from more experience as an XO under someone he thought would make for a good educator, which means he lacked confidence in himself to take command at 1st, & ultimately, since he stayed in the post over a decade & a half, he really had esteem issues, (Which I doubt, because he seems to exude tons of confidence most of the time) or he just got complacent & unmotivated, which is equally sad

3. He felt he didn't deserve the post, for the personal history reasons I detailed above, & though it may have been an overreaction, it's at least a valid issue for someone to have & need to overcome

I prefer #3, because it's the only one that interprets Riker as someone who isn't vain, selfish, or lazy

 

[Disco]

So maybe that's what Riker was waiting for? A ship class that didn't suck and wasn't constructed from a design 50-80 years old?

Then he didn't deserve a command at all.

I disagree. Taking a command of a small ship doing routine work is a step back in his career, he'd have less responsibility than he does on Ent-D and less opportunity to enhance his career by being involved in big events.

 

[T'Girl]

I'd rather be the first officer on the best ship in the fleet than the captain of some garbage scow, personally.

Ultimately something like that just might have happened. While it's unlikely the Titan was a "garbage scow" it could have been a relatively minor ship of a older design.

We never see it.

 

[Trekker4747]

It could just be he was simply happy where he was. He was second-in-command on the best ship in the fleet working with the best crew in the fleet under the best commanding officer in the fleet. An old love interest and close friend was on the ship with him and his job entitled him to go on away missions. (Something he'd have to give up if he took a job as a captain.)

He was content and happy where he was, why mess that up?

 

[Ember]

I always saw Riker's choice as a certain well-meant arrogance, that he deeply valued the crew of the Enterprise as being irreplaceable and therefor considered himself as being irreplaceable also. In that line of thought, Riker might therefor also have felt that only he makes a suitable next Captain for the Enterprise, with nobody but him being truly able to comprehend just how valuable the crew really was.

And then Picard's home burned down, all of his relatives died, taking from him the one thing he had looked forward to retire to. In fact the only semblance of family Picard now had was his crew. Riker knew that without him, Picard would stay with this family and thus Riker knew he'd leave the Enterprise in very capable hands. At that point Riker realized that the Captain was irreplaceable and that his own destiny was on a ship and with crew he'd someday also consider his own, that of the Titan.

 

[Marsden]

It astonishes me at how many posters have implied that being captain of a starship is "routine work"

 

[Jedman67]

^ Good point. There's such a gulf between the design of the Galaxy Class, and all those 'other' cold, utilitarian looking Starships we keep seeing in TNG, that it does make one wonder about the health of the Starfleet in the 24th century.

TNG didn't have the budget to make "newer" - looking ships for most of the duration of the show; so movie-era ship models were recycled (Stargazer was originally going to be a Constitution ship but it was modded into a Constellation at the last minute - some lines were overdubbed)
The handful of "newer" looking ships seen were most likely kitbashes from model kits of the E-D (Nebula, for example, although for GEN i believe it was digital).
So therefore, I theorize that all the newer class ships were out on extended duties and the older "workhorse" ships cruised closer to home. Just because we've only seen older ships doesnt mean they're all old ships.