Reconsidering Nemesis...

[Allyn Gibson]

^So let's play devil's advocate and say that Picard was more than just a nobody. So, why him? Why did the Romulans choose him specifically over a myriad of other officers?

I hold two competing theories on this.

The first is that the Romulan cloning plan was far more widespread than just Picard. They may have had clones of dozens, even hundreds of promising Starfleet officers, because they didn't know who they would need.

The second is that the Romulans interrogated the alternate Tasha Yar in 2344 and became convinced of the importance of Picard based upon that, not realizing that her Picard was an alternate Picard. If so, then the Romulans were lucky that, in the main timelime, Picard amounted to something. I've floated this theory before. EDIT: And I see I'm not the only one to come up with it.

 

[martok2112]

I always connected the Romulan acquisition of Picard's DNA with the episode "Data's Day", in which a Romulan spy who had, for years, posed as a venerable and honored Vulcan ambassador manages to fake her own death, and get returned to her people by an unwitting Picard.

I think it is reasonable to speculate that Picard was seen for the capable commanding officer that he was, especially since his battlefield assumption of command on the Stargazer. One does not gain captaincy of the Federation flagship without making a name for one's self. I think the Romulans decided to keep tabs on him ever since his start in command aboard the Stargazer.

When it was time for the Romulan spy to return, one of the many intelligences and assets taken with her could well have been Picard's dossier, as well as possibly his DNA. Since she was beamed off the Enterprise's transporter pad by a Warbird's transporter beam, it would explain why Picard's DNA did not show up with her own fabricated DNA when she faked her death.

I'm just spitballin' here.

 

[Dukhat]

Like I said, the Tal Shiar would just scan her mind and extract her memories, they don't have to interrogate her the traditional way.

And it's not just a different uniform, but also a more advanced communicator that would alert them that she was from a different time.

But that doesn't make sense based on what we know. Sela said that Tasha and the rest of the Ent-C survivors were going to be executed, but her father was able to spare Tasha from death to be his consort/concubine/whatever. That implies that the Romulans didn't know her true origins, because if they did, there's no way in hell they would have executed a Starfleet officer from 20 years in the future, especially a security officer. And they most certainly wouldn't have let her be some guy's fucktoy. And for all we know, Tasha was easily able to evade 20 year old Tal Shiar mind scanning technology (if they even used it at all), and easily destroyed her communicator so that future tech wouldn't fall into the Romulans' hands. She's a security officer, for crying out loud! She'd know all this.

Plus, they have those temporal scanning whoswhatsits that can tell the temporal origins of a person or device.

I have no idea what you're talking about here, but this is Romulus from 20 years in the past. We don't know what technology they had back then.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

Like I said, the Tal Shiar would just scan her mind and extract her memories, they don't have to interrogate her the traditional way.

And it's not just a different uniform, but also a more advanced communicator that would alert them that she was from a different time.

But that doesn't make sense based on what we know. Sela said that Tasha and the rest of the Ent-C survivors were going to be executed, but her father was able to spare Tasha from death to be his consort/concubine/whatever. That implies that the Romulans didn't know her true origins, because if they did, there's no way in hell they would have executed a Starfleet officer from 20 years in the future, especially a security officer. And they most certainly wouldn't have let her be some guy's fucktoy. And for all we know, Tasha was easily able to evade 20 year old Tal Shiar mind scanning technology (if they even used it at all), and easily destroyed her communicator so that future tech wouldn't fall into the Romulans' hands. She's a security officer, for crying out loud! She'd know all this.

Again, the device reads all of your memories. There would be no need for keeping her around for traditional interrogation anymore, since the sum total of her knowledge would be dumped into some Tal Shiar computer core. You're thinking in conventional terms.

Plus, they have those temporal scanning whoswhatsits that can tell the temporal origins of a person or device.

I have no idea what you're talking about here, but this is Romulus from 20 years in the past. We don't know what technology they had back then.

Well, quantum dating existed in the 22nd century, and they were using quantum signatures with little difficulty to determine Worf's origin in another universe in TNG - Parallels, so the Romulans probably had those capabilities around that era too.

http://en.memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Quantum_dating
http://en.memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Quantum_signature

I don't know why you're so attached to this idea that Picard was some unknown in the early 2350s when he was already an established captain with some fame as a cadet and in battle, we don't know Shinzon is actually that old anyway, and we have a quite simple explanation for why the Romulans would know who Picard is and could have gotten a sample of his DNA (from the Enterprise-C). I think I've spelled out my reasoning for you in detail, so I'm not sure what else there is to say.

 

[lurok]

I kind of find the idea of Shinzon being a young (~10-12 years old mentally) tactical genius with limited social experience in the mold of Ender's Game to be pretty interesting. It certainly explains some of his more irrational anger toward Picard, Earth, and women like Deanna. He's a child in an adult's body with no social interaction beyond this warrior cult he was raised in and elevated to leader/savior of.

This and your previous post were great, too bad the movie didn't really cover any of that, it would have helped, a lot.

+1

The irrationality is worst aspect of film (not taking anything away from Hardy's - and cast's - performances, which I've always liked. You can only act with what you're given).

 

[Dukhat]

Again, the device reads all of your memories. There would be no need for keeping her around for traditional interrogation anymore, since the sum total of her knowledge would be dumped into some Tal Shiar computer core. You're thinking in conventional terms.

Did you ignore what I wrote? That tech would have been 20 years out of date when and if they used it on Tasha. Being a security officer in wartime, she would have been trained to resist such things.

Well, quantum dating existed in the 22nd century, and they were using quantum signatures with little difficulty to determine Worf's origin in another universe in TNG - Parallels, so the Romulans probably had those capabilities around that era too.

Again, there'd be no reason to scan Tasha quantumly if they had no idea she was from the future.

I don't know why you're so attached to this idea that Picard was some unknown in the early 2350s when he was already an established captain with some fame as a cadet and in battle, we don't know Shinzon is actually that old anyway, and we have a quite simple explanation for why the Romulans would know who Picard is and could have gotten a sample of his DNA (from the Enterprise-C). I think I've spelled out my reasoning for you in detail, so I'm not sure what else there is to say.

I already said that he wasn't an unknown, but just no different than any other starship captain at the time. And "getting a sample of his DNA from the Enterprise-C" is just wild speculation on your part.

 

[eyeresist]

I don't think they'd even have to go that far. If Stewart played both roles, it would have been simple enough to explain away how Shinzon appears to be the same age as Picard (this is Trek after all).

Actually, the problem here is when Shinzon was actually created. He's what, 20-something years old? Nemesis takes place in 2379. What was Picard doing in 2359 that made the Romulans interested in him? He wouldn't even be in command of the Enterprise-D for four more years! There would have been absolutely no reason why the Romulans would have cloned Picard, because at the time Picard was essentially a nobody.

If you recall the example of the Cambridge spies, they were pretty much "nobodies" when the USSR recruited them, but because of their social position they had potential to rise through the intelligence establishment (with some help from their controllers). Implanting an imposter at the top might draw attention, but getting to someone who is on track but ATM unnoticed is more likely to succeed.

I kind of find the idea of Shinzon being a young (~10-12 years old mentally) tactical genius with limited social experience in the mold of Ender's Game to be pretty interesting. It certainly explains some of his more irrational anger toward Picard, Earth, and women like Deanna. He's a child in an adult's body with no social interaction beyond this warrior cult he was raised in and elevated to leader/savior of.

This and your previous post were great, too bad the movie didn't really cover any of that, it would have helped, a lot.

But this is very much what I got out of the movie. Just because it wasn't stated overtly doesn't mean it wasn't there.

 

[Marsden]

But this is very much what I got out of the movie. Just because it wasn't stated overtly doesn't mean it wasn't there.

But, I did not get that at all. It wasn't stated at all and I didn't even think it was hinted at.

And I thought they got Picard's dna from when he visited Romulus in that bar, but that makes the clone only 5 years old? Still a very confusing starting point.

 

[martok2112]

I still say his DNA was smuggled out with the Romulan spy in "Data's Day".
Plenty enough time passed between that event and Nemesis.
Plenty enough time before that for the Romulans to have more than just a passing interest in Picard.

Personal opinion only.

 

[eyeresist]

I kind of find the idea of Shinzon being a young (~10-12 years old mentally) tactical genius with limited social experience in the mold of Ender's Game to be pretty interesting. It certainly explains some of his more irrational anger toward Picard, Earth, and women like Deanna. He's a child in an adult's body with no social interaction beyond this warrior cult he was raised in and elevated to leader/savior of.

This and your previous post were great, too bad the movie didn't really cover any of that, it would have helped, a lot.

But this is very much what I got out of the movie. Just because it wasn't stated overtly doesn't mean it wasn't there.

But, I did not get that at all. It wasn't stated at all and I didn't even think it was hinted at.

The most obvious pointer in the movie is Shinzon's awkward obsession with Troi, which indicates a lack of understanding of romantic relationships.
But there is also his basic biography: a childhood brutalised in a slave mine with only a latex-covered Ron Perlman for a friend and father-figure - then drafted into the military, where he was presumably brutalised in a different way, and forced into a life where strategy and combat were the only permissible elements, and the only possible outcomes were victory or death.
There's the way he rejects Picard's warm offer of friendship, presumably because he has no idea how to deal with such emotions except to regard them as contemptible weaknesses.
Finally (for now!) there is the way his Reman viceroy facilitates his mental attack on Troi, which I think is strongly indicative of some seriously messed-up codependency issues.
_

 

[Locutus of Bored]

I still say his DNA was smuggled out with the Romulan spy in "Data's Day".

In his more rambunctious youth, Picard was leaving traces of his DNA all over the quadrant. There were whole squads of Tal Shiar CSIs whose sole purpose was to run a blacklight over every room he stayed in while making a lame quip and putting on their sunglasses to musical accompaniment.

 

[Timo]

The first is that the Romulan cloning plan was far more widespread than just Picard. They may have had clones of dozens, even hundreds of promising Starfleet officers, because they didn't know who they would need.

Let's not forget that they were trying to copy more than just wetware - they had a pretty convincing Data copy prepared as well!

Or did anybody seriously think B4 was a genuine Soong product? Heck, he even looks as if xeroxed from the 2370s rather than the 2330s original.

Really, I have some difficulty believing that the Romulans would bother to ship Shinzon all the way to the Reman mines in order to get rid of him, when disruptor bolts supposedly cost less - but much less problem thinking that the Romulans would ship a thousand such rejects to Remus for use as practical labor...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[martok2112]

I still say his DNA was smuggled out with the Romulan spy in "Data's Day".

In his more rambunctious youth, Picard was leaving traces of his DNA all over the quadrant. There were whole squads of Tal Shiar CSIs whose sole purpose was to run a blacklight over every room he stayed in while making a lame quip and putting on their sunglasses to musical accompaniment.

Touche

 

[Lance]

http://www.denofgeek.us/movies/star-trek/248258/star-trek-nemesis-what-went-wrong

Very interesting article. Brings up several points I had not considered, including:

• almost 1/3 of the movie was cut to encourage theatres to show the film more often to catch the "overflow" from Harry Potter and LOTR
• the cut material included many expansions of character roles and significantly advanced character story arcs
• speaking of, Potter/LOTR, putting Trek up against two of the biggest franchises in cinematic history was a really stupid move on the studio's part.
• Baird didn't do his homework, didn't really like Trek, and the cast didn't like him either

Also gives us a glimpse into the cancelled Prime universe ST XI which was intended to be the true send-off for that era of Trek.


I agree with the article author: it's not going to happen, but I suspect we'd be singing a different tune if we'd gotten the film that was made, and not the poorly chopped carcas of that movie the studio ultimately provided.

It's worth noting that a lot of the deleted material does actually address many of the criticisms people often cite about the movie. For example, many people kvetch about how Lore doesn't even get a mention in the movie despite the obvious parallels to be drawn, but in the original cut he *does* in fact get name-checked. Likewise, the whole B4 plot has a lot more substance when you take into account the deleted scenes of Data trying to help him 'evolve', and being frustrated by B4's lack of progress. The memory engram upload in the movie itself just looks like a cynical sequel hook, but in the context of the deleted scenes it's more like Data is simply trying to give B4 the "jump start" that he didn't get naturally.

It seems to me that Baird went through the movie and hacked apart anything he didn't understand. Which unfortunately meant most of the references to the past, the 'character moments', all ended up on the cutting room floor.

On the other hand...

I think they could've made The Wrath of Khan-level movie and it still would've failed. People had simply moved on.

... I do find this viewpoint compelling. The idea that Star Trek had simply 'burnt out' at the time is very plausible, and with *or* without it's deleted scenes Nemesis has got a general lack of energy to it. Everybody looks so tired of putting on those spacesuits and saying those same old lines.

 

[Dukhat]

Or did anybody seriously think B4 was a genuine Soong product?

Yes, because that was the writer's intention, and no actions or dialogue in the film contradicts this. Plus, Data & Geordi would have known right away if B-4 was a fake.

Granted, I would have preferred that B-4 was just some shoddy piece of crap that Shinzon or some other Romulan built, but the movie seems to imply that there's no question that any android with a positronic matrix could only have been built by Soong. And if B-4 was nothing but a fake, then we lose any empathy we had for the character and Data's relationship with him.

Really, I have some difficulty believing that the Romulans would bother to ship Shinzon all the way to the Reman mines in order to get rid of him, when disruptor bolts supposedly cost less - but much less problem thinking that the Romulans would ship a thousand such rejects to Remus for use as practical labor...

If there were thousands of Starfleet officers cloned, what happened to them all? Why would they send them all to the mines when they could foment a rebellion with their sheer numbers? And if they just shot them all like you say, why didn't they shoot Shinzon too? Again, everything in the movie seems to imply that Picard's clone was a one-off idea.

 

[Timo]

Yes, because that was the writer's intention, and no actions or dialogue in the film contradicts this.

No actions or dialogue contradict the opposite idea, either. And writer's intention is unknown to us, save for random statements of questionable veracity, while what we see on screen is true for the fictional universe. Unless it's a dream sequence.

Plus, Data & Geordi would have known right away if B-4 was a fake.

How? Soong was a genius. LaForge is a glorified grease monkey. Not even Maddox was allowed to study Data enough to understand him. And Data does not know of B-4, while he arguably should were B-4 genuine. He has rather complete access to the history of his own creation now, after all, from conversations with Julianna Tainer.

the movie seems to imply that there's no question that any android with a positronic matrix could only have been built by Soong.

The point being to establish the heroes as suckers. Shinzon is counting on the heroes being fooled. And the Romulans who originally (and badly) put B-4 together would have had the same rationale for attempting the deceit.

If there were thousands of Starfleet officers cloned, what happened to them all?

Those who weren't too deformed went to the mines and died. Or are still there. Shinzon is an exception because Viceroy.

Had the old creep chosen a different mattress, we'd be watching the adventure where the young clone of Captain Jellico lures in the Cairo.

Why would they send them all to the mines when they could foment a rebellion with their sheer numbers?

That's a scaling error right there, IMHO. Less than thousands -> easier to just gun down, not enough to ship for labor. But even ten thousand -> a tiny, tiny fraction of the hopeless masses toiling in those mines - masses well under control by the enslaving measures in place.

And if they just shot them all like you say, why didn't they shoot Shinzon too?

No, I'm not saying that. I'm saying that because Shinzon wasn't shot, there must have been others like him.

Again, everything in the movie seems to imply that Picard's clone was a one-off idea.

Like what?

As debated above, every practical consideration stands against Picard being a special case:

- Picard isn't special
- Picard certainly wasn't special
- if choosing one nobody for the program, Romulans would have no reason not to choose several; the increased risk of exposure would bring no increased damage from the failure, as these would be nobodies to start with!

Mass production sounds like a natural thing to do in connection with cloning anyway.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Dukhat]

Needless to say, I stand by what I wrote and am not going to get dragged into your usual point-by-point deconstruction of my posts to see who has the bigger dick. Believe whatever the hell you want.

 

[Timo]

Oh, no offense meant. I just happen to disagree on everything you said. Plus there was that one bit of correcting a clear misunderstanding of yours for clarity.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Dukhat]

Any misunderstanding you think I had is just your opinion.

 

[Timo]

Oh, feel free to cling to your faith and never reconsider a position, I have no objection to you making a fool out of yourself that way. But the claim about me saying the putative others would have been shot is something you made out of whole cloth, and clear errors like that need correcting.

Not that it was a remarkably significant claim over a superbly important issue. But unlike roughly 100% of the interesting conversation in this thread, it was over facts rather than pseudofacts or opinions.

Timo Saloniemi