Why not go animated?

[Crazy Eddie]

Which in no way damaged the receptivity to trying again. SW as a brand is much stronger than Trek and has been at least as far back as Empire.

Stronger how? Star Trek managed to survive as a film franchise even after tanking ratings in TWO DIFFERENT SHOWS. The lukewarm reaction to "Insurrection" wasn't enough to sink the franchise, even when they followed it up with "Nemesis."

If anything, Star Trek is the STRONGER franchise because it manages to survive low points that Star Wars never had to overcome. Star Wars produces a shit product, everyone forgets it exists; Star Trek produces a shit product, it colors everyone's expectations for the next one.

Uh, no. That market is gone.

No it isn't. It just evolved. I'll again remind you that ALL of the shows you just mentioned have gained popularity in streaming services. Even TAS can be found there, where it probably gets more viewers NOW than it actually had in its original run.

Action/drama cartoons have fallen victim to an obsession by the studios with the 8-tween boy market. They will even sacrifice good broad ratings in the name of a few more points of young boy demo.

And the reason you assume Paramount would/should imitate this strategy is...?

I don't want to see an animated Trek that is reduced to pratfalls and laugh lines just to get made.

So no more Mudd episodes, then?

All those shows that got yanked had viewers engaged.

So did TOS, for that matter. But we still managed to get three good seasons and two animated ones before they finally pulled the plug.

You suppose they'll kill it because toy sales aren't high enough? Fine by me. These days getting canceled early is the punishment for being too good, so maybe we'll get one or two seasons before the network executive chokes on his own dick and falls over on the "cancel" button.

If it's HALF as good as Rebels or Clone Wars, I'll take it.

 

[Phantom]

If anything, Star Trek is the STRONGER franchise because it manages to survive low points that Star Wars never had to overcome. Star Wars produces a shit product, everyone forgets it exists;

Uh...no. Star Wars is by far the more recognizable pop culture icon, even WITH the perception in some quarters that the Prequel Trilogy was subpar.

http://www.statisticbrain.com/star-wars-total-franchise-revenue/

Star Wars : Episode 1 – The Phantom Menace$924,317,558
Star Wars : Episode 2 – Attack of the Clones$649,398,328
Star Wars : Episode 3 – Revenge of the Sith$848,754,768
Star Wars : Episode 4 – A New Hope$775,398,007
Star Wars : Episode 5 – Empire Strikes Back$538,375,067
Star Wars : Episode 6 – Return of the Jedi$475,106,177
Star Wars : The Clone Wars - $68,282,844

And that's just the movies. SW as a total franchise (all sources) is valued at at least $27 billion. (research date Apr 15 of this year)

As of 2014, SW films alone were was the #3 movie franchise of all time (behind The Avengers and Harry Potter) at $2.26 billion in revenue. Trek is #13 with $1.25 billion from the movies.

http://www.statista.com/statistics/188510/most-successful-movie-franchises-in-north-america/


People line up MONTHS ahead of time for SW movies. They don't do that for Trek.

Uh, no. That market is gone.

No it isn't. It just evolved. I'll again remind you that ALL of the shows you just mentioned have gained popularity in streaming services. Even TAS can be found there, where it probably gets more viewers NOW than it actually had in its original run.

And none of them are producing new episodes, nor are they likely to in the future.

And the reason you assume Paramount would/should imitate this strategy is...?

It's not up to CBS/Paramount. It's up to the networks that would air the material. None of the LA networks will even TOUCH animation, let alone in prime time.

I don't want to see an animated Trek that is reduced to pratfalls and laugh lines just to get made.

So no more Mudd episodes, then?

Which Mudd? "Mudd's Women" Mudd was written and played mostly serious with a bit of humor. "I Mudd" Mudd was pratfalls and laugh lines and yes, I could go without ever seeing the later again.

All those shows that got yanked had viewers engaged.

So did TOS, for that matter. But we still managed to get three good seasons and two animated ones before they finally pulled the plug.

Which doesn't change the realities of the animation market today one little bit.

You suppose they'll kill it because toy sales aren't high enough? Fine by me. These days getting canceled early is the punishment for being too good, so maybe we'll get one or two seasons before the network executive chokes on his own dick and falls over on the "cancel" button.

That's not the way it works. No network executive is going to even green-light such an effort.

If it's HALF as good as Rebels or Clone Wars, I'll take it.

So would I, but the network isn't gonna do it. It just isn't. The nature of the market does not favor the material, and Trek is perceived as being too much of a "niche" audience.

I know how you feel, Eddie. I've been on your side of the argument when it comes to action/drama animation. I had to all-but literally have the realities of the animation market beat into my thick skull by the people who understood that "But we really really really really want it." In animation, the PTB have their spreadsheets to "count the beans" and they just don't add up in favor of animated action/drama shows.

 

[Warped9]

The direct-to-video and online streaming markets, however, are where action/drama cartoons really thrive these days with a combination of feature-length movies and various shows running anywhere between 6-to-24 episodes long. A new Trek animated series may have to go that route like the way Warner Bros does with their animated movies based on DC Comics, releasing a couple of installments a year.

This is indeed an interesting idea. I could see this as the alternative to bring Trek back to the more television style storytelling than the hyperkenetic blockbuster style of the current feature films. The Warner DC animated features certainly do adult level materiel. And in terms of continuity it doesn't have to be tied to the live-action features anymore than the DC direct-to-video features are tied to the live-action films.

I admit I have my own preferences in what I'd like to see if an animated project came along. I think there's a lot of potential in it even while acknowledging that something could be developed and done in a way that could completely turn me off of it.

I think an animated project could be done in a number of ways not dissimilar from what could be done live-action. That said I also think there are non-starter ideas. Without intending any offence to fans of specific shows I seriously doubt we'd ever see a return to DS9, VOY or ENT. I could see fan productions attempting that, but very unlikely for any official production.

I see three options:
- Revisiting the TOS era or some variation thereof.
- Revisiting the TNG era or some variation thereof.
- Breaking away and doing something new much like TNG did when it set itself apart from TOS.

 

[drt]

I really like the idea of the DC-esque animated movie route. It allows them to try different things without being locked into a series.

Shoot, if there were a series of well regarded animated Trek movies, I could see them taking a chance on a DS9 or VOY one, likely as a cross-over with a TNG movie.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Uh...no. Star Wars is by far the more recognizable pop culture icon

Of course it is. But it doesn't have nearly the EXPOSURE. Rocky Balboa is a pop culture icon too, but he doesn't have the market penetration that Star Trek has.

Which still doesn't give a coherent reason why an animated Star Trek series would fail to attract viewers. We KNOW animated seres' are capable of doing this when they are presented properly. Are you now of the opinion that Star Trek is just so inherently boring that it wouldn't survive in that format or what?

And none of them are producing new episodes, nor are they likely to in the future.

Neither did Star Trek until the movie era came out.

So they make an awesome and entertaining animated series, but for some reason ratings are underwhelming and it gets canceled after one or two seasons. In that worst case scenario, guess what we (fans) now have that we didn't have before?

It's not up to CBS/Paramount. It's up to the networks that would air the material. None of the LA networks will even TOUCH animation, let alone in prime time.

CN would, in fact they'd probably jump all over it for the Toonami/Adult swim lineup. So would SyFi, probably, and some of the Nickelodeon spinoffs if the licensing deal was attractive enough.

And again, there's streaming networks to consider. Those are becoming more popular with families because of the massive time commitment of after-school activities and more and more parents are using Netflix et al to timeshift their kids' favorite shows.

You've got to ask yourself how many of those parents will wind up watching a Star Trek series THEMSELVES whether their kids like it or not.

You suppose they'll kill it because toy sales aren't high enough? Fine by me. These days getting canceled early is the punishment for being too good, so maybe we'll get one or two seasons before the network executive chokes on his own dick and falls over on the "cancel" button.

That's not the way it works. No network executive is going to even green-light such an effort.

I've just given you at least four examples of executives doing EXACTLY that. Again, do you really think Star Trek is that boring?

Trek is perceived as being too much of a "niche" audience.

Which is a problem from a marketability standpoint. An animated series would help to change that.

In animation, the PTB have their spreadsheets to "count the beans" and they just don't add up in favor of animated action/drama shows.

Which is I suppose is why those kinds of shows never... get... made...

 

[Phantom]

Uh...no. Star Wars is by far the more recognizable pop culture icon

Of course it is. But it doesn't have nearly the EXPOSURE. Rocky Balboa is a pop culture icon too, but he doesn't have the market penetration that Star Trek has.

And Trek doesn't have the penetration of Star Wars.

Which still doesn't give a coherent reason why an animated Star Trek series would fail to attract viewers. We KNOW animated seres' are capable of doing this when they are presented properly. Are you now of the opinion that Star Trek is just so inherently boring that it wouldn't survive in that format or what?

Apples to oranges. Justice League/Batman/Superman/et al is not the same genre or cultural penetration as Star Trek.

It Trek was the same as them, then you would expect that the ratings/results at the box office would be similar. They aren't.

And none of them are producing new episodes, nor are they likely to in the future.

Neither did Star Trek until the movie era came out.

Movies =/= animated series.

So they make an awesome and entertaining animated series, but for some reason ratings are underwhelming and it gets canceled after one or two seasons. In that worst case scenario, guess what we (fans) now have that we didn't have before?

Not my point. We fans can "really really really really want" it, but the studios are not going to produce it unless their spreadsheets tell them they stand a reasonable chance of making the level of profit they want from it.

In animation, that means selling action figures to 8-tween boys, not drawing general audience viewers.

CN would, in fact they'd probably jump all over it for the Toonami/Adult swim lineup. So would SyFi, probably, and some of the Nickelodeon spinoffs if the licensing deal was attractive enough.

If that were true, then where is it? It isn't happening because CN (who, btw, is the biggest canceller of action/drama animation out there), et al are not "jumping all over it".

And again, there's streaming networks to consider. Those are becoming more popular with families because of the massive time commitment of after-school activities and more and more parents are using Netflix et al to timeshift their kids' favorite shows.

You've got to ask yourself how many of those parents will wind up watching a Star Trek series THEMSELVES whether their kids like it or not.

Not enough to interest CBS/Paramount, obviously, or we'd have a series.

Trek is perceived as being too much of a "niche" audience.

Which is a problem from a marketability standpoint. An animated series would help to change that.

Maybe, maybe not. Point is that the market is so risk-averse that it refuses to put a toe beyond the bounds of what Marketing says is "sure money".

In animation, the PTB have their spreadsheets to "count the beans" and they just don't add up in favor of animated action/drama shows.

Which is I suppose is why those kinds of shows never... get... made...

Haven't in some time now. Unless you want to watch a Star Trek episode where arguing about "who stole the cookies" from the gallery in a comical fashion is an important plot point for most of the episode. That actually happened in an Avengers Assembled episode. Or if you want the Captain to be a snarky, "fourth wall"-breaking idiot like Ultimate Spider-Man.

I for one don't want "Kiddie" Trek. I want Star Trek.

 

[Trekkin]

First off - I don't think they'll make an animated series any time soon. Maybe if Beyond goes absolutely gangbusters, but that's still a while off.

But yes people do still make animated action/dramas. Unless I'm hallucinating the episode of Ghost In The Shell that's currently on my television screen. And oh look - it's being followed up by the Highlander animated series. So they do still exist, and they are distinctly not 'for kids.'

Western animation these days seems to alternate between kids and comedy. Luckily for animations fans, the world's a bit bigger than America. And it wasn't so long ago that they were making 'action' and drama cartoons. The MIB animated series comes to mind, as does HBO's version of Spawn, Aeon Flux. Invasion America, Tales from the Crypt , Daria etc.

Even Doctor Who did Dreamland a little while back (and uses animation to fill in missing classic episodes), and for something that is so hilariously funny, Archer spends a surprising amount of time just being a straight up spy show. So still around, just rarer and a little different from the glory days of Funimation.

If want a Star Trek cartoon, it looks like you'll have to hope that the series makes it big in Japan. There was some official Star Trek manga a few years back, for anyone curious about what that might look like. I think there was even a TNG one when Abrams film came out.

 

[eyeresist]

If want a Star Trek cartoon, it looks like you'll have to hope that the series makes it big in Japan. There was some official Star Trek manga a few years back, for anyone curious about what that might look like. I think there was even a TNG one when Abrams film came out.

I had a quick look for that. It looks like it was called a "manga" but was actually an American production. I think a Japanese version would have better art!

http://www.amazon.com/Star-Trek-Next-Generation-Tokyopop/dp/1427812721/

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Not my point. We fans can "really really really really want" it, but the studios are not going to produce it unless their spreadsheets tell them they stand a reasonable chance of making the level of profit they want from it.

And there is a lot of precedent to suggest that one COULD make a strong case for it, especially in the wake of Star Trek Beyond. You're the one trying to claim that a business case cannot be made under any conceivable circumstances, but none of the reasons you post have anything to do with Star Trek or with animation in general.

Case in point:

In animation, that means selling action figures to 8-tween boys

Except when it doesn't. See examples already given.

Maybe, maybe not. Point is that the market is so risk-averse

No, CBS and Paramount are risk-averse. The market actually rewards risk takers, especially in animation. Entertainment in general works that way: controversy draws attention and attention means higher ratings. A production that does something different or original in an entertaining way keeps a following a lot longer than a production that is just small variations on the same old formula. This fact, in particular, is something Paramount should be VERY familiar with when it comes to Star Trek. Not that they'll have actually learned their lesson...

Haven't in some time now.

See examples already given.

I for one don't want "Kiddie" Trek.

Which is again why I cited Clone Wars as an interesting example.

 

[Phantom]

^Your examples are all shows no longer in production and/or shown on speciality channels like Disney XD.

They don't represent the "mainstream" thinking in western animation from the studios at the present time.

I specifically referred to the Paul Dini statements as to further proof of my position.

 

[TheSubCommander]

I don't know whether a Star Trek animated series would work, either. My gut feeling is that it likely would not be successful enough, because of the age group for the fan base not being likely to watch it. The way I see it is if it would have remotely been likely, it would have already been done. Star Trek does not appeal to enough people under 30, let alone under 14, where the cost of the show would be something a studio would try to produce.

That said, if someone wanted to try to produce a Star Trek animated series, I think the best way would have been to do a mini-series that adapted the comic series Star Trek Countdown and its "sequel" Countdown to Darkness. Since those didn't happen, I doubt an animated series would happen.

 

[Warped9]

The argument, "If it had been viable or worth doing someone would have done it already." has never been a strong one. Lots of things have been believed to be not workable until someone comes along and makes it work. Then everybody wants to jump onboard and copy it.

Practically everybody can tell you that something won't work and why...until someone tries and it does work.

 

[TheSubCommander]

Well, sadly, show biz is only viable if it will first and foremost make money. Apparently not enough in show biz think a Star Trek animated series will make enough money to be viable or worth doing. I'm not saying I am against an animated series, I am just saying that it isn't realistic to expect it to happen any time soon, and with an aging fan base, the less likely it will be.

 

[Warped9]

"Science fiction on television only works as an anthology." Then we get series with recurring characters in the '60s and continuing to today.

"Cartoons are for kids." Then we get The Flintstones in prime time and years later The Simpsons and Family Guy and others and animated direct-to-video geared more for adults.

"Comics are for kids." Comics have been aimed at a more adult readership for years. In Japan comics are made for all ages.

"Westerns are dead and won't work anymore." Then we get Dances With Wolves and Unforgiven and since a number of decent western themed films.

"No one cares about pirates anymore." Then we get Pirates Of The Caribbean and its sequeals.

"Superheroes are for Saturday morning television." But since 1978 superheroes have been hugely successful money-makers that appeal as much to adults as well as kids.

"Star Trek is the only science fiction that works on television." despite tons of evidence to the contrary.


So the real issue isn't whether something can work or not, but whether anyone is willing to try.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Star Trek does not appeal to enough people under 30, let alone under 14

Which is a PROBLEM, not a characteristic endemic to Star Trek. It is a problem that an animated TV show could be specifically geared to correct for the purpose of revitalizing the franchise.

It may not be successful in the long run, but a business case could easily be made.

That said, if someone wanted to try to produce a Star Trek animated series, I think the best way would have been to do a mini-series that adapted the comic series Star Trek Countdown and its "sequel" Countdown to Darkness.

Throw in "After Darkness" and the five year mission, for that matter. The same target audience basically applies, with the added benefit that animated series are significantly more popular and easier to sell than comic books.

"Science fiction on television only works as an anthology." Then we get series with recurring characters in the '60s and continuing to today.

"Cartoons are for kids." Then we get The Flintstones in prime time and years later The Simpsons and Family Guy and others and animated direct-to-video geared more for adults.

"Comics are for kids." Comics have been aimed at a more adult readership for years. In Japan comics are made for all ages.

"Westerns are dead and won't work anymore." Then we get Dances With Wolves and Unforgiven and since a number of decent western themed films.

"No one cares about pirates anymore." Then we get Pirates Of The Caribbean and its sequeals.

"Superheroes are for Saturday morning television." But since 1978 superheroes have been hugely successful money-makers that appeal as much to adults as well as kids.

"Star Trek is the only science fiction that works on television." despite tons of evidence to the contrary.


So the real issue isn't whether something can work or not, but whether anyone is willing to try.

Bullseye.

The opportunity is there. Somebody just has to take it.

And the weird thing is, this wouldn't even be the FIRST time an animated Star Trek production was made.

 

[Warped9]

No one, beyond diehard SF fans, was clamoring for a show like TOS back in the day. No one knew that GR had the idea for SF as we would get with TOS. Indeed there was a lot of skepticism about the idea. But GR wasn't really totally out of left field.

A year or two earlier Voyage To The Bottom Of The Sea was already airing on television. There was also the type and tone of stories being told on The Outer Limits. And then, of course, there were the classic films of the '50s: Destination: Moon, The Day The Earth Stood Still, War Of The Worlds, Forbidden Planet and others. Plus shows like Time Tunnel and Lost In Space were out around the same time. Other shows were doing sci-fi series with recurring characters. Roddenberry's idea was basically to take the concept of Forbidden Planet and give it a more serious minded tone like The Outer Limits. Today we can look at that as a no-brainer, but back then Roddenberry had to sell them on the idea.

No one was clamoring for an animated Star Trek back in the early '70s. Fans were crying for a return of live-action Star Trek. Paramount already knew that could work given TOS' popularity in syndication, but they wrongly assumed a new live-action Star Trek would hurt the syndicated reruns--that's why they kept refusing NBC to bring TOS back. The compromise was to do TOS as animation. They probably thought they'd crank out a kiddie show, but the showrunners aimed higher than that despite the Saturday morning scheduling. Yeah, it could have been better, but they did make it work within the confines of the era.

Today we are faced with the same thing. TPTB really have no clue as to what would work and they don't seem very receptive to suggestions from anyone who actually might have a good idea of what could work. These are the same type of people who couldn't make up their fucking minds whether to do Phase II or a feature film until the last minute while blowing millions for an aborted TV series. And Roddenberry was saddled with most of the blame for how things turned out when the problem started with TPTB.

A new animated Star Trek likely could be made to work. The biggest hurdles are finding the right idea, convincing TPTB it can be done and airing it in the right time and place.

 

[Tim Walker]

The direct-to-video and online streaming markets, however, are where action/drama cartoons really thrive these days with a combination of feature-length movies and various shows running anywhere between 6-to-24 episodes long. A new Trek animated series may have to go that route like the way Warner Bros does with their animated movies based on DC Comics, releasing a couple of installments a year.

This is indeed an interesting idea. I could see this as the alternative to bring Trek back to the more television style storytelling than the hyperkenetic blockbuster style of the current feature films. The Warner DC animated features certainly do adult level materiel. And in terms of continuity it doesn't have to be tied to the live-action features anymore than the DC direct-to-video features are tied to the live-action films.


I see three options:
- Revisiting the TOS era or some variation thereof.
- Revisiting the TNG era or some variation thereof.
- Breaking away and doing something new much like TNG did when it set itself apart from TOS.

I don't know the legal details/complexities in the Paramount/CBS relationship. Would an animated movie count as a "movie" in this context? Would Paramount be free to produce an animated movie?

As for animation, TAS showed that animated Trek can be good.

Yeah, if you can't get a new series on television, I can imagine animated Trek coming out direct to DVD.

This general topic has been described http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DirectToVideo

This have been some interesting ideas for new Treks in other threads. This might seem a bit of a risk, but you could likely save money by using obscure actors for the voices.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

]In animation, that means selling action figures to 8-tween boys

Yeah, becuase its going to be really hard to with a bunch of different variants of trek characters, vehicles, ships, and play sets for something trek with the nine bijillion ones that would typically show up in a trek production

 

[Tim Walker]

I thought Titan A. E. was a good animated movie http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titan_A.E.

As to its lack of financial success...first, unlike Trek or Star Wars, I think it lacked brand recognition. Second, the movie theater is an expensive venue compared to the straight to video option.

One thing I've been wondering about...after the JJ movies run their course, could animated become the only option for Trek?

And if so, would future fans come to think of animated movies as Treks natural habitat?

 

[DaddlerTheDalek]

I thought Titan A. E. was a good animated movie http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titan_A.E.

As to its lack of financial success...first, unlike Trek or Star Wars, I think it lacked brand recognition. Second, the movie theater is an expensive venue compared to the straight to video option.

One thing I've been wondering about...after the JJ movies run their course, could animated become the only option for Trek?

And if so, would future fans come to think of animated movies as Treks natural habitat?

It was impressive to watch Titan A.E. on the big screen.